2*20's

JJDLD

Possibly the dimmest question of the year so far, but "2*20's" seem to crop up quite a bit round these parts. What are they?!

Ta,

JJ.

Alex_Simmons/RST

Secret Jedi talk.

Or a short hand notation signifying a type of cycling workout, whereby you do two 20-minute long efforts (intervals) at a very hard pace with a short recovery period between the two efforts.

here's a little more:

http://alex-cycle.blogspot.com/2008/07/ ... ake-2.html
http://alex-cycle.blogspot.com/2007/01/ ... wenty.html

JJDLD

Thanks Alex,

Makes (more) sense now. Using heart rate rather than power, I'm assuming that the work efforts would be at my lactate threshold?

JJ.

SteveR_100Milers

Hey Alex, as a compromise for those of us that simply hate/cannot use a turbo, what about doing a series of 10 minute intervals? I can manage 4 x 10 at a higher interval effort and higher overall effort for the complete session. I chose 10 minutes on the basis its an approx rule of thumb minimum duration to generate some benefit of riding in the sweet spot from one of your previous posts. I'm a little keener as I have now joined to aero bike and pointy hat club properly for this season, and I'd like to avoid having wasted a chunk of money!

Alex_Simmons/RST

JJDLD wrote:

Thanks Alex,

Makes (more) sense now. Using heart rate rather than power, I'm assuming that the work efforts would be at my lactate threshold?

JJ.

Well LT would be a bit too easy for such a workout, LT being a pace you could probably sustain for several hours.

Generally these would be done from just below your best 1-hr TT pace/power or a HR that corresponds to that. By doing them at a fraction under that full blown TT level, you still get excellent benefits and be able to do them on a regular basis without killing yourself for other workouts.

At some stage however you need to lift the power.

Alex_Simmons/RST

SteveR_100Milers wrote:

Hey Alex, as a compromise for those of us that simply hate/cannot use a turbo, what about doing a series of 10 minute intervals? I can manage 4 x 10 at a higher interval effort and higher overall effort for the complete session. I chose 10 minutes on the basis its an approx rule of thumb minimum duration to generate some benefit of riding in the sweet spot from one of your previous posts. I'm a little keener as I have now joined to aero bike and pointy hat club properly for this season, and I'd like to avoid having wasted a chunk of money!

Shorter efforts make for a good introduction to these types of workouts but over time I would still build them up to ~ 20-min.

There's nothing wrong per se with 4x10s but it is my experience that more benefits come from contiguous time spent at level, than by breaking it up too much.

If you can't sustain the pace/power for 2 x 20-min, then the pace/power is too hard. Drop it back a notch and work from there.

If you are going to go harder and shorter, may as well do MAP / VO2 Max work.

SteveR_100Milers

The problem is a mental one not physical one. I can "easily" hammer along outdoors at a continous 85%+ effort for an hour on a trainning ride, but not indoors. I just give up from boredom, but when the weather prevents me from riding outdoors, then this I found was the best compromise (the alternative to doing nothing....)

Simon Notley

I have a similarly short attention span. I had been doing 4x10 intervals bit after reading this thread decided to give 3x15 a go instead... it was torturous, but in a good way, I think I'll press on with the 3x 15s and maybe even try 2x20s or 3x20s as the season gets nearer...

disgruntledgoat

I've been doing 4 x 5s on the turbo and 3 x 10s on the road for the last couple of months and those seem tohave brought a benefit. Am progressing to the 2 x 20s on the roads in a couple of weeks. As well as doing the "hour of power" on the turbo.

spartacuscp

A quick question on the 2 x 20 workout.
I can manage to sit on the turbo at 90% max hr (Which i assume is just below 10 mile TT pace) for the 2 sessions . But which is more beneficial . ?
1. spinning away like a mad man (The one i favour) or
2. Using a bigger gear and slower leg rev .
The spinning is a battle of wills and doesn`t build up the lactic feel so much . The bigger gear efforts seem impossible.
Thanks,

Murr X

spartacuscp wrote:

A quick question on the 2 x 20 workout.
I can manage to sit on the turbo at 90% max hr (Which i assume is just below 10 mile TT pace) for the 2 sessions . But which is more beneficial . ?
1. spinning away like a mad man (The one i favour) or
2. Using a bigger gear and slower leg rev .
The spinning is a battle of wills and doesn`t build up the lactic feel so much . The bigger gear efforts seem impossible.
Thanks,

Use whatever cadence produces the most power. Do not spin faster than you need to, likewise do not grind away for no reason.

If you're turbo gives a power/speed reading then you may be able to find out what works best, ie what produces the most power/speed.

Alex_Simmons/RST

SteveR_100Milers wrote:

The problem is a mental one not physical one. I can "easily" hammer along outdoors at a continous 85%+ effort for an hour on a trainning ride, but not indoors. I just give up from boredom, but when the weather prevents me from riding outdoors, then this I found was the best compromise (the alternative to doing nothing....)

Yes, motivation is one of the big 4 issues in getting the power down indoors. The others being adequate cooling, inertial load and adaptation to the ergo.

nmcgann

spartacuscp wrote:

A quick question on the 2 x 20 workout.
I can manage to sit on the turbo at 90% max hr (Which i assume is just below 10 mile TT pace) for the 2 sessions . But which is more beneficial . ?
1. spinning away like a mad man (The one i favour) or
2. Using a bigger gear and slower leg rev .
The spinning is a battle of wills and doesn`t build up the lactic feel so much . The bigger gear efforts seem impossible.
Thanks,

I would say you are running quite a bit below "10" pace at 90% - that's more like a touch under 25 pace.

The question I'd ask is what revs do you actually use on the road in a real race? I think that is where you need to be working on the turbo to keep it as specific as possible.

Neil

BigG67

spartacuscp wrote:

A quick question on the 2 x 20 workout.
I can manage to sit on the turbo at 90% max hr (Which i assume is just below 10 mile TT pace) for the 2 sessions . But which is more beneficial . ?
1. spinning away like a mad man (The one i favour) or
2. Using a bigger gear and slower leg rev .
The spinning is a battle of wills and doesn`t build up the lactic feel so much . The bigger gear efforts seem impossible.
Thanks,

Not commenting on the HR but there was a workout in Cycling Weekly's Winter Fitness supplement that suggested mixing cadences up.

Effectively do 16 mins at a pace that was sustainalble for 1 hour with effort (so around FTP) and switch every 4mins from 70rpm to 100pm. 2 sets with a 4min spin in the middle a 15min warm up/10min cool down.

I tried it and it was a bugger of a workout.

Bronzie

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

inertial load and adaptation to the ergo.

Hi Alex

Just out of interest can you explain these 2 a bit more?

Alex_Simmons/RST

Bronzie wrote:

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

inertial load and adaptation to the ergo.

Hi Alex

Just out of interest can you explain these 2 a bit more?

Now I sorta thought that was coming.

Have a read here:
http://alex-cycle.blogspot.com/2009/01/ ... ining.html

DaSy

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

Now I sorta thought that was coming.

Have a read here:
http://alex-cycle.blogspot.com/2009/01/ ... ining.html

Once again you answer all the questions I never knew to ask. I have to say that my training has become so much more effective since reading your input on this forum and your Blogspot.

Many thanks for so much good advice Alex.

Si

SteveR_100Milers

Alex, that's really interesting. I think I have underestimated the interial load issue (I know that motivation is a problem for me, and I suspect cooling is alos not adequate).

I use a Cycleops fluid 2 trainer which is similar to the Kurt Kinetic in that is has a decent sized flywheel and is relatively smooth, but despite that I still struggle to pedal smothly with it. I know that I am a bit of a stamper, especially whan it gets hard, and almost always when riding a TT.

Here's another q though, thinking about 4 x 10 in stead of 2 x 20 - have now tried both alternatives, and can ride much harder for for the 4 10 min sessions than i can over a 20. Now, I understand that at the ame intensity, 20 minutes continuous is better than 2 x 10 but what about factoring in intensity into that comparison? As a guide, I can manage around 82-86% effort for the 10 min sessions, whereas its more like 75-80% for 20 minutes. Interestingly, I was talking to one of our club riders yesterday, who is reasonably good at TTing (57 for 25, 1-58 for a 50 ) and he never does more than about 7 minutes at TT pace!

Alex_Simmons/RST

SteveR_100Milers wrote:

Here's another q though, thinking about 4 x 10 in stead of 2 x 20 - have now tried both alternatives, and can ride much harder for for the 4 10 min sessions than i can over a 20. Now, I understand that at the ame intensity, 20 minutes continuous is better than 2 x 10 but what about factoring in intensity into that comparison? As a guide, I can manage around 82-86% effort for the 10 min sessions, whereas its more like 75-80% for 20 minutes. Interestingly, I was talking to one of our club riders yesterday, who is reasonably good at TTing (57 for 25, 1-58 for a 50 ) and he never does more than about 7 minutes at TT pace!

That question is best answered by examining the Normalised Power for the two workouts. You might actually find they represent a similar workload.

liversedge

My experience is that micro variations in the workout make a big difference to both PE and motivation. I have recently started using ergvideos and find that the constantly varying workload coupled with a picture of what I'm riding makes a big difference.

Physiologically I am getting micro-recoveries during the workout and mentally I am being motivated to brow the hill or keep up out the corners. Or just plain lay the hammer down in a frisky burst during a club training ride. And then I don't feel so bad when I freewheel for a few seconds on the descent.

if you have a Computrainer or Velotron I recommend the ergvideos whole heartedly.

Bronzie

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

Have a read here:
http://alex-cycle.blogspot.com/2009/01/ ... ining.html

Ok, thanks - that all makes sense.

Particularly like your last bit of motivational advice:
"Of course the most obvious answer is simply to HTFU."