Will I ever be able to climb with lightweights?

holmeboy

Been doing a lot of miles for the last 2 years now including a lot of hills, the Question I've got to ask you experts is will I ever be able to keep up with a 10 stone cyclist (I'm 13 and a bit) going up hill into winds etc? I can do it for a while with extreme effort but eventually get dropped. Don't really see me losing much more weight, I'm 6ft of medium build.

:oops: :twisted: :roll: 8)

redddraggon

Anyone can climb with "Lightweights"......if they can afford them

Anonymous

Heh heh, I thought you meant the wheels too!

It's all about power to weight ratio...

From the sounds of it, you will have to increase your threshold power output a bit to keep up, and even then, you may still not make up the shortfall.

You'll kill them on the flats though

softlad

holmeboy wrote:

I can do it for a while with extreme effort but eventually get dropped. Don't really see me losing much more weight, I'm 6ft of medium build.

you don't get dropped because they are lighter than you - you get dropped because they are better climbers than you.

climbing requires a combination of leg strength, aerobic + anaerobic capacity and a good ol fashioned tolerance of physical suffering. All of that can be worked on successfully, no matter how much you weigh...

The Other McHoy

holmeboy wrote:

Been doing a lot of miles for the last 2 years now including a lot of hills, the Question I've got to ask you experts is will I ever be able to keep up with a 10 stone cyclist (I'm 13 and a bit) going up hill into winds etc? I can do it for a while with extreme effort but eventually get dropped. Don't really see me losing much more weight, I'm 6ft of medium build.

:oops: :twisted: :roll: 8)

Unfortunately, all things being equal, the answer is no. On short climbs where power can be maintained then it is possible for bigger riders to "outmuscle" lighter ones but gravity eventually kicks in. I'm guessing that the type of weight difference you are talking about, 20+ kilos, would require you to put out something around 20-30 % more power just to keep up with them.

On the optimistic side, you may be lucky and be able to train longer and harder than them , lose some weight and develop enough power to compensate for the remaining difference.

There are very few big riders (using your 13 stones or 80 kilos as the mark) in the pro peloton and fewer still who could keep up with the climbers who tend to be around the 10 stone range. Then again, there are just as few few lightweights that can keep up with Cancellara on the flat or Chris Hoy on the track - horses for courses and all that.

You could always chose to focus on criterium racing, TT, etc.

cougie

But a 10 stone cyclist of the same ability will drop a 13 stone cyclist on a hill usually.

If you want to get good at climbing - then you need to think about training reeeeeallly hard, or losing some weight. Preferably both.

You do have the advantage on the downhills though if you can make use of it.

softlad

The Other McHoy wrote:

There are very few big riders (using your 13 stones or 80 kilos as the mark) in the pro peloton and fewer still who could keep up with the climbers who tend to be around the 10 stone range.

Indurain is 6ft 2" and was around 175lb (about 12.5st) in his prime. He could climb as well as most and rarely - if ever - lost time in the mountains - he even won the odd mountain stage, as I recall. Its not about 'weight' - its about 'power to weight'...

Gary Sinclair

I weigh the same and i can drop my 10 stone mate on hills. Its all about power to weight imo. I find a big hill ride to the top then bottom and repeat for training.

BeaconRuth

holmeboy wrote:

Don't really see me losing much more weight..............

Maybe you could begin to see yourself losing weight then? Your body mass index (BMI) is about 25 - which is borderline 'overweight' according to the fairly arbitrary scale used by health professionals. I know BMI isn't a great measure, but there is no escaping the fact that for an endurance cyclist you are relatively very heavy for your height.

If I was going to increase my BMI to 25 I would have to increase my body weight by 16% - or carry 11 x 2lb-bags of sugar in my saddle bag. Geez - I'd be slow up hills! 11 bags of sugar! :shock:

Ruth

ps. I agree with all the folks who say increase power output too.

BeaconRuth

ps. If Softlad's numbers for Indurain are correct his BMI was 22.5. So you only need to lose about a stone and a half to have the same BMI as him. That'd be a lot easier than finding the same power as him.

Ruth

Captain Fagor

BeaconRuth wrote:

ps. If Softlad's numbers for Indurain are correct his BMI was 22.5. So you only need to lose about a stone and a half to have the same BMI as him. That'd be a lot easier than finding the same power as him.

Ruth

Yes, it would, wouldn't it? I seem to recall that big Mig had an eight litre lung capacity!!! :shock:

brownbosh

Err why has no-one here mentioned the mental side of climbing. Ability, both physiologically AND mentally have a great affect on a prolonged climb. Regardless of size an ability to suffer is also a must to keep up with a good climber.

softlad

brownbosh wrote:

Err why has no-one here mentioned the mental side of climbing. Ability, both physiologically AND mentally have a great affect on a prolonged climb. Regardless of size an ability to suffer is also a must to keep up with a good climber.

I mentioned it in my first reply...

mclarent

Please don't bring up BMI, it's such a crock. Works on the basis of weight for height, but unfortunately we're all built in 3 dimensions not 2. Also is completely inappropriate for any trained athlete, due to the difference in density of fat and muscle. Pet peev.

Anonymous

Indeed, in cycling, watts per kilogram for a given time period is where it's at for climbing....

Not as important as outright power on the flats though.

Alex_Simmons/RST

Two riders with same power to weight ratio will climb at about the same speed (bike weight and aerodynamics account for some small differences).

However on the flatter terrain, then power to CdA (aero drag) ratio is much more important.

The Other McHoy

softlad wrote:

The Other McHoy wrote:

There are very few big riders (using your 13 stones or 80 kilos as the mark) in the pro peloton and fewer still who could keep up with the climbers who tend to be around the 10 stone range.

Indurain is 6ft 2" and was around 175lb (about 12.5st) in his prime. He could climb as well as most and rarely - if ever - lost time in the mountains - he even won the odd mountain stage, as I recall. Its not about 'weight' - its about 'power to weight'...

Softlad - You are right, but how many Indurains have there been? My post did not say it was impossible, simply that there have been very few big riders who have been able to climb as well as their smaller competitors. I also mentioned that a 13 stone rider would need to generate and sustain somewhere between 20-30 % more power than a rider 20 kilos lighter - there are very few riders capable of doing that when other factors are equal (fitness levels etc.). On a ride with several climbs, such as a typical mountain stage in the Tour, teams will normally ask their big riders to sacrifice themselves in the earlier climbs because they cannot sustain it over the full stage. They can use their superior power to weight ratio for a big effort to blow the peloton apart but then they themselves blow up leaving the pure climbers to fight it out. Look at how CSC used Cancellara to do precisely this at the 2008 TdF.

liversedge

The Other McHoy wrote:

softlad wrote:

The Other McHoy wrote:

There are very few big riders (using your 13 stones or 80 kilos as the mark) in the pro peloton and fewer still who could keep up with the climbers who tend to be around the 10 stone range.

Indurain is 6ft 2" and was around 175lb (about 12.5st) in his prime. He could climb as well as most and rarely - if ever - lost time in the mountains - he even won the odd mountain stage, as I recall. Its not about 'weight' - its about 'power to weight'...

Softlad - You are right, but how many Indurains have there been? My post did not say it was impossible, simply that there have been very few big riders who have been able to climb as well as their smaller competitors. I also mentioned that a 13 stone rider would need to generate and sustain somewhere between 20-30 % more power than a rider 20 kilos lighter - there are very few riders capable of doing that when other factors are equal (fitness levels etc.). On a ride with several climbs, such as a typical mountain stage in the Tour, teams will normally ask their big riders to sacrifice themselves in the earlier climbs because they cannot sustain it over the full stage. They can use their superior power to weight ratio for a big effort to blow the peloton apart but then they themselves blow up leaving the pure climbers to fight it out. Look at how CSC used Cancellara to do precisely this at the 2008 TdF.

Ivan Basso is 6ft and 80kg

Wappygixer

I'm nearly 88 ish kg and I love climbing the big hills round Cheshire and Derbyshire.
I think most of it is to do with the mental state but if you haven't got the legs your mental state will not count for to much.
I'm also very competitive and hate to see people in front of me which normally makes me try even harder until my lungs hurt to much to go any more

ColinJ

liversedge wrote:

Ivan Basso is 6ft and 80kg

That doesn't sound right!

Hmm, according to various internet sources Basso is 70 kg which sounds more like it!

I'm 6' 1" tall and at 80 kg (12 st 8 lbs) I'd be at my target weight but I wouldn't be a skinny climber like Basso. I'm a biggish medium build. I'd suggest that you ought to be able to get another 10 pounds or so off holmeboy .

chrisw12

What has technique got to do with it? It's all simple maths.

I climb every day, I climb in the saddle out of the saddle, one handed, on the tri bars... I can do constant power, surge power, interval power whatever, I have the mental attitude second to none but when my 10st mate, who trains half the time as me, who I'll beat easily in a flat tt does a climb with me, he gives me an absolute hammering.

At 13st I'm just too heavy to climb with him.

The only way I can stay him is if I take him on a 4hr ride, hammer him on the flats, make sure he doesn't eat, then do our 20 min climb right at the end.

Anonymous

nice graphage there Mr Simmons!

jimmypippa

mclarent wrote:

Please don't bring up BMI, it's such a crock. Works on the basis of weight for height, but unfortunately we're all built in 3 dimensions not 2. Also is completely inappropriate for any trained athlete, due to the difference in density of fat and muscle. Pet peev.

One of the most amusing examples I can think of is example is Jonah Lomu

Height 1.96 m (6 ft 5 in)
Weight 120 kg (18 st 13 lb)
(from wiki)

BMI 31.2 from NIH BMI calculator

Waist size 27 inches.

(I'm half kiwi, and dual nationality, so follow the All Blacks, which is annoying every world cup for the past 20 years)

See this article in the Guardian


Triangle man

Muscle is also mass, and more dense than fat

BeaconRuth

jimmypippa wrote:

mclarent wrote:

Please don't bring up BMI, it's such a crock. Works on the basis of weight for height, but unfortunately we're all built in 3 dimensions not 2. Also is completely inappropriate for any trained athlete, due to the difference in density of fat and muscle. Pet peev.

One of the most amusing examples I can think of is example is Jonah Lomu

Height 1.96 m (6 ft 5 in)
Weight 120 kg (18 st 13 lb)
(from wiki)

BMI 31.2 from NIH BMI calculator

Waist size 27 inches.

(I'm half kiwi, and dual nationality, so follow the All Blacks, which is annoying every world cup for the past 20 years)

See this article in the Guardian


Triangle man

Muscle is also mass, and more dense than fat

So you're saying Jonah Lomu is good at climbing hills on a bike?

Ruth

nasahapley

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

Two riders with same power to weight ratio will climb at about the same speed (bike weight and aerodynamics account for some small differences).

However on the flatter terrain, then power to CdA (aero drag) ratio is much more important.

Which is why, in a previous thread, I said that for a given power-to-weight ratio it's better to be heavier. I was being tongue-in-cheek, but only a little bit! I'm surprised at how often it's said the best thing you can do to be a better cyclist is to lose weight - it'll certainly help on the bigger hills (provided your power output stays the same), but there's a lot more to cycling than going up hills. On the flats and descents being lighter won't help that much at all. Increasing your power, on the other hand, will obviously help on all three.

The perfect cyclist would have the power output of Indurain and the weight of Rasmussen, but that ain't gonna happen. From my (admittedly limited) knowledge of the grand tours, it seems to be guys that aren't necessarily that light by the standards of the pro peleton, but have big absolute power outputs, that tend to do well (Armstrong, Indurain, Ullrich etc). I'm prepared to be corrected on that though; have there been loads of overall wins by wraith-like grimpeurs in recent years?

(Btw I'm just under 6' and 85kg, so I would say this )

a_n_t

ColinJ wrote:

I'm 6' 1" tall and at 80 kg

i'm 6'2" and 72kg, I love a good hill!

shockedsoshocked

You may not be able to beat him up hill (except on a really good day) but you could more than likely hold his wheel if anything. Just get into a good rhythm and let him do the work. If it's a windy day like you said, you'll more then likely be able to make him suffer on the flat if he's only slight.

My only other advice is practise. Do a good hilly ride once a week at least and it should all fall into place. But some guys are just natural climbers. I used to ride with a guy who was 9 stone (vegetarian and cycled everyday) who would often ride past the group on hills, hands behind his head whistling. The bastard.

Brian B

holmeboy wrote:

Been doing a lot of miles for the last 2 years now including a lot of hills, the Question I've got to ask you experts is will I ever be able to keep up with a 10 stone cyclist (I'm 13 and a bit) going up hill into winds etc? I can do it for a while with extreme effort but eventually get dropped. Don't really see me losing much more weight, I'm 6ft of medium build.

:oops: :twisted: :roll: 8)

I am 6ft2" and currently at around 13.5stone and I dont really notice that I climb any slower than say someone who is much lighter than me. My mate who IS lighter than me can take time out of me on a long climb and specially abroad but then again he can climb with the best of people and i have often left people behind who weigh much less than myself so dont beat myself up about it.

IMO as long as you are not really overweight its more about fitness and how often you practice on the hills will determine how well you climb. I do nothing but hills when out training and often try to push myself when climbing and over the years I have became quicker and boosted my endurance.

Its about playing to your strengths as on steeper sections of a climb you might loose time to someone who is lighter but when the gradient ease off then its time to use your power to your advantage and can reel them in then. If you loose time when climbing in a group put yourself near the front at the start of a climb and if you start to fall back you'll not loose as much distance.

If its a climb where you know you loose time to your mates then dont put yourself into the 'red' for the first half of the climb and then suffer all the way to the top but just try to keep the pace even all the way to the top just below your max threshold.

I aint an expert on climbing but just like to do hills and i know there's is nothing more frustating than dropping off the back on a climb.

Good Luck

ColinJ

a_n_t wrote:

ColinJ wrote:

I'm 6' 1" tall and at 80 kg

i'm 6'2" and 72kg, I love a good hill!

When I was 75 kg, so did I! The only trouble was, my face looked like I'd been chained up in a dungeon somewhere for 6 months. That's why I've decided on the 80 kg target. I know I can climb pretty well at that weight, and I won't have people fussing about my health all the time.

It's all academic at the moment - the recent holiday period had me up to 100 kg :shock: !!!

markos1963

Move to Norfolk

liversedge

ColinJ wrote:

liversedge wrote:

Ivan Basso is 6ft and 80kg

That doesn't sound right!

Hmm, according to various internet sources Basso is 70 kg which sounds more like it!

I'm 6' 1" tall and at 80 kg (12 st 8 lbs) I'd be at my target weight but I wouldn't be a skinny climber like Basso. I'm a biggish medium build. I'd suggest that you ought to be able to get another 10 pounds or so off holmeboy .

Oops. sorry. Cancellara is 80kg. Basso is tall tho, so no reason a tall bloke can't get skinny (even if his power output is beyond mere mortal's genetics - a whopping 400w for an hour). Hell - he could set the hour record with that number!!!

Maybe he does stand a chance in the Giro....................