Lance interview in Feb Procycling

Martin Van Nostrand

Dave_1 wrote:

what substances/methods can't they test for or see indirect sign of?

Any of the recombinant natural hormones, such as human growth, progesterone etc. It's impossible to detect these from the endogenous. As long as the result is not ridiculously high (11:1), it will likely not be detected. Some have fast half-lives and are gone before the stage end-nothing to fear from frozen samples.
It's almost impossible to detect blood doping if one uses their own red blood cells, as long as hematocrit does not exceed 50 points.
With EPO-like drugs, it's just a race between the drug and the detection test.

If a rider uses methods to reach the upper allowed limits of hormone and red blood cell permitted levels, it is unlikely they will be caught. It seems to me the only people caught are by mistakes.
Some people naturally have these levels, so at best, it's evening the playing field.

Bad/good? grey to me.

As an endocrinologist, Dr. Ferrari has always been years ahead of his field on this stuff.

iainf72

Dave_1 wrote:

what substances/methods can't they test for or see indirect sign of? I am not sure myself to be honest. I heard there are variants of EPO. I think internal testing has gone on for 15 years but this is the the first time it's been made public by at least some teams. LA should be left alone now...he can do no more...the next 7 months are crucial to the determined doper needing his gear, so LA has limited himself more than any in what he can do...can't vanish for 2 or 3 weeks now

It's a funny situation - The Catlin testing has started perhaps but we're not privy yet as to what he's doing. He's good at finding drugs perhaps but is he good at finding the indirect signs of it? It would be interesting to see more details.

Experts claim there are lots of methods you can use amd still slip under the radar

http://www.gazzetta.it/Ciclismo/Primo_P ... 3009.shtml

Catlin should outsource some of the work to Ashenden

dave_1

Martin Van Nostrand wrote:

Dave_1 wrote:

what substances/methods can't they test for or see indirect sign of?

Any of the recombinant natural hormones, such as human growth, progesterone etc. It's impossible to detect these from the endogenous. As long as the result is not ridiculously high (11:1), it will likely not be detected. Some have fast half-lives and are gone before the stage end-nothing to fear from frozen samples.
It's almost impossible to detect blood doping if one uses their own red blood cells, as long as hematocrit does not exceed 50 points.
With EPO-like drugs, it's just a race between the drug and the detection test.

If a rider uses methods to reach the upper allowed limits of hormone and red blood cell permitted levels, it is unlikely they will be caught. It seems to me the only people caught are by mistakes.
Some people naturally have these levels, so at best, it's evening the playing field.

Bad/good? grey to me.

As an endocrinologist, Dr. Ferrari has always been years ahead of his field on this stuff.

Well...i have heard other stuff to you.
From what I gather there is a test for HGH, Garmin claim to use it...but it is still being refined but is being used by some labs...re blood transfusion, I believe fresh red cell transfusion shows up abnormalities in blood profiles and things like the bio paspsort catch that leading to suspension without an actual positive result declared,- new red cell production slows down or shuts down does it not?

Kléber

This is only a PR exercise, it's not some medical exercise with peer review and outside critics. But cycling needs these additional methods, they all help although the ultimate testing is from the governing bodies.

I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt for his comeback, like I said above it appears you can ride clean and be competitive now. But that said, links to Ferrari and the presence of Bruyneel still leave lots of concerns, you hope past practices and people will remain in the past.

dave_1

iainf72 wrote:

Dave_1 wrote:

what substances/methods can't they test for or see indirect sign of? I am not sure myself to be honest. I heard there are variants of EPO. I think internal testing has gone on for 15 years but this is the the first time it's been made public by at least some teams. LA should be left alone now...he can do no more...the next 7 months are crucial to the determined doper needing his gear, so LA has limited himself more than any in what he can do...can't vanish for 2 or 3 weeks now

It's a funny situation - The Catlin testing has started perhaps but we're not privy yet as to what he's doing. He's good at finding drugs perhaps but is he good at finding the indirect signs of it? It would be interesting to see more details.

Experts claim there are lots of methods you can use amd still slip under the radar

http://www.gazzetta.it/Ciclismo/Primo_P ... 3009.shtml

Catlin should outsource some of the work to Ashenden

Thanks for the link Iain..will take a look

blazing_saddles

Seems to be all the rage, these days...

Sinkewitz posts blood values online
Patrik Sinkewitz has posted his first blood values online, from three tests conducted by the International Cycling Union (UCI) in September and October 2008. The data is available for viewing on his website, patrik-sinkewitz.com.

"Of course I have been tested more often," he noted, but the other tests were done by either the World Anti-Doping Agency or the National Anti-Doping Agency, neither of which publishes the test results.

An idea for WADA, maybe?

stagehopper

Basso posting his data online now (see today's latest Cycling news round up - includes graphs).

iainf72

stagehopper wrote:

Basso posting his data online now (see today's latest Cycling news round up - includes graphs).

LA's sort of commented on it.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/C/ ... 1-03-15-22

Dude, what you do is you publish the results with some context around it. You're in Oz, there's a guy called Michael Ashenden who would be able to provide info about whether the movements are normal.

blazing_saddles

Now, I don't mean to sound negative, but has somebody been at the FLandis fluid, for the summer months?
I wonder the comments would be, were Armstrong to post a set like this?
Too busy to get tested between the start of the Giro and the end of the Vuelta?
Don't think that'll wash, this season.



Somehow, I think he's got a way to go, to impress the likes of Walsh, Kimmage and Rendell.......not to mention a few around here!

Kléber

stagehopper wrote:

Basso posting his data online now (see today's latest Cycling news round up - includes graphs).

Is this verified? I could start trustkléber.com and post my values, only I could just be making them up. Basso's lied so much in the past that his bib shorts were ablaze.

Still, I welcome any attempt to do it right, it's a start.

jimmythecuckoo

I would believe in you Kleber

iainf72

Kléber wrote:

stagehopper wrote:

Basso posting his data online now (see today's latest Cycling news round up - includes graphs).

Is this verified? I could start trustkléber.com and post my values, only I could just be making them up. Basso's lied so much in the past that his bib shorts were ablaze.

Still, I welcome any attempt to do it right, it's a start.

Aldo Sassi is the one doing the monitoring and I think you can register on the site and have a look at more data

http://www.mapeisport.it/IvanBasso/default.asp?LNG=EN

dave_1

iainf72 wrote:

Kléber wrote:

stagehopper wrote:

Basso posting his data online now (see today's latest Cycling news round up - includes graphs).

Is this verified? I could start trustkléber.com and post my values, only I could just be making them up. Basso's lied so much in the past that his bib shorts were ablaze.

Still, I welcome any attempt to do it right, it's a start.

Aldo Sassi is the one doing the monitoring and I think you can register on the site and have a look at more data

http://www.mapeisport.it/IvanBasso/default.asp?LNG=EN

what exactly is the trained eye looking for in terms of evidence of blood manipulation? apart from HC%?

Kléber

The haematocrit count isn't the important number. Several years ago a few of the Bouygues riders (Voeckler was one) sent a letter to the UCI complaining about the focus on the haematocrit count, as simply testing a rider at 6am gave them, say, six hours following the test to hook up to a drip and infuse enough red blood cells to raise the count and then they simply drained off the blood in the evening again. They called for start line testing of the haematocrit as a way to combat this.

Sadly/Predictably the UCI didn't change the time the "vampires" visited. So you need to look for the off score and reticulocyte count which can show signs of manipulation. This is one of the sad things with cycling, I never got past GSCE biology but here I am posting about reticulocyte count.

DaveyL

Why is it sad? You get to follow a sport, and fill in some gaps in your scientific education. Result!