More Lance revisionism...

Kléber

But everyone knows Indurain, Basso and Ullrich were doping; some still think Armstrong never doped.

aurelio_-_banned

DaveyL wrote:

aurelio wrote:

As to `demonising` him above all other riders, again this is disingenuous.

You do know we can see what all your previous posts have been about, right?

As I said, everybody seems to be quite prepared to accept that just about any other rider in the peleton has doped. (Other than Armstrong of course... ). (This is so even when no more evidence exists against a rider than a code name on some dodgy doctors files that just might relate to them in some way). So, other than in the case of Armstrong, there is usually no reason to get into an argument about a given riders doping habits, is there? :roll:

That said, I have argued on here that, amongst others, Indurain doped, so my focus has not been exclusively on Armstrong in any case. I also have argued that Landis and Iban Mayo were guilty of doping...

DaveyL

aurelio wrote:

As I said, everybody seems to be quite prepared to accept that just about any other rider in the peloton has doped. (Other than Armstrong of course... ).

Everybody? Really? Wanna start a poll?

aurelio_-_banned

DaveyL wrote:

Perhaps aurelio would like to move on to Indurain, or Ullrich, or Basso, or, well, anyone else basically.

I have already argued on here that Indurain doped... :roll:

As to Basso and Ullrich, perhaps you would like to point me in the direction of those threads where their own personal fan boys are arguing their innocence and dismissing the validity of the evidence against them. (Which, it has to be said, is much less than stands against Armstrong).

DaveyL

Ah, so you only pop up every time a "fanboy" rears his ugly head, just to put them right. Gotcha.

6288

he's playing it down ... same way he always bigged up Jan Ullrich before the tour ... you don't beat someone year after year and rate them as competition ... the 'chess on wheels' starts the minute you say you are gonna ride and have a realistic chance of winning ...

there are 2 ways to end this ... re-test every sample of every rider since 1970 and if not all samples exist then don't test any, why should lemond, hinault etc. not have the same scrutiny and testing just cos the samples aren't there ...

or accept the controls that were in place at the time and move on ...

if they re-zone a 40mph road to a 30mph you don't send out speeding tickets to all those that used to do more then 30mph before the change ... do you?

Kléber

6288 wrote:

if they re-zone a 40mph road to a 30mph you don't send out speeding tickets to all those that used to do more then 30mph before the change ... do you?

No but if there's a 30mph zone and people are knowingly breaking the limit but the police don't have a speed gun, only a stop watch and a ruler, does this mean the crime is ok?

For me, if a cheat can use EPO and other products but the authorities can't detect this, this is still wrong.

So I don't accept the controls in place, as we've seen it's often the police who catch dopers, not the UCI.

iainf72

Kléber wrote:

As for his statement about never doing such a long TT, the guy seems prone to making odd statements, like the notion that he's going to work with Catlin but does nothing, or his quirky answers on VO2 max. But this could just be a simple mistake, the guy can't remember all the TTs he's done, and their precise length.

See, I can't buy that. Maybe if you'd only done a long one as some obscure event but when you get your butt kicked by Indurain or win the GP Des Nations you should remember those events.

Perhaps he's just trying to drum up interest by making it sound like it's something new to him.

Certainly working if the rumours of RCS negotiating for NBC to broadcast the Giro in the US are to be believed.

DaveyL

iainf72 wrote:

Perhaps he's just trying to drum up interest by making it sound like it's something new to him.

+1

Harry Hill

So are you saying that Indurain must have been juiced up to manage "sitting down, calm, and doing 53 K's," (33 m.p.h.)." ?

If so, are his tour wins now in doubt? I always thought Big Mig was a hugely powerful rider with an amazingly low RHR and I admired the almost "reserved" way that he won his tours. I'd be sorry to hear that he cheated his way to winning :-(

aurelio_-_banned

Harry Hill wrote:

So are you saying that Indurain must have been juiced up to manage "sitting down, calm, and doing 53 K's," (33 m.p.h.)." ?

If so, are his tour wins now in doubt? I always thought Big Mig was a hugely powerful rider with an amazingly low RHR and I admired the almost "reserved" way that he won his tours. I'd be sorry to hear that he cheated his way to winning :-(

There is plenty of evidence to show that he was doped. For example, UCI tests showed the haemocrit levels of the whole Banesto team were within a percentage point or so of the 50% limit, a situation `impossible in nature` according to the late ABCC coach Ray Minovi; at the Festina hearings a former Banesto rider said that there was organised doping within the team which involved everyone on the squad; one of Indurain`s team mates was busted transporting large amounts of doping products and so on. I have given references for all these points before on here, so do a search if you want the details.

Richrd2205

Harry Hill wrote:

So are you saying that Indurain must have been juiced up to manage "sitting down, calm, and doing 53 K's," (33 m.p.h.)." ?

If so, are his tour wins now in doubt? I always thought Big Mig was a hugely powerful rider with an amazingly low RHR and I admired the almost "reserved" way that he won his tours. I'd be sorry to hear that he cheated his way to winning :-(

Just looking at the maths, for the extra 20kg that Indurain was carrying over what we'd consider a traditional climber, he'd have had to produce a lot more than an extra 25% of power (assuming 8kg bikes, 3.2m/s speed, average 10% slope, 60kg climber & 82kg Indurain, 8kg bikes, (based on the record setting Alpe d'Huex time) formula here: http://www.mayq.com/Best_european_trips ... d_math.htm ). >25% is a fairly big gap in elite sports, you think you can get that without PED's?
Indurain is shorter than me & was heavier, even at his lightest, & could climb like someone half my size. Any eyebrows raised yet?

pottssteve

Ladies,
They RIDE BIKES. They DRESS IN LYCRA. They URINATE BY THE ROAD SIDE. They SHAVE THEIR LEGS. They do not have their finger on the nuclear button. They make mistakes. Some of them are stupid and greedy. They are like us. Just watch the bike races, eh?

dave_1

Kléber wrote:

But everyone knows Indurain, Basso and Ullrich were doping; some still think Armstrong never doped.

but people never call for Indurain or Ullrich's samples to be retested yet do Armstrong...double standards. Anyway, I hope LA gets beaten...more wins will embolden him to be the arrogant bully he showed himself to be in 05...

Kléber

Dave, go to Germany and you'll find plenty of people ready to lead the witch hunt against "Big Jan" and plenty want his samples re-tested.

But I don't think anyone on here thinks Indurain or Ullrich rode clean yet some people cling to a faith in Armstrong that is so irrational that many can't help themselves from pointing out the cracks, the fault lines, in the arguments.

dave_1

Kléber wrote:

Dave, go to Germany and you'll find plenty of people ready to lead the witch hunt against "Big Jan" and plenty want his samples re-tested.

But I don't think anyone on here thinks Indurain or Ullrich rode clean yet some people cling to a faith in Armstrong that is so irrational that many can't help themselves from pointing out the cracks, the fault lines, in the arguments.

true, I see what you mean. LA makes himself a target and deserves it.But any retesting of samples should not be Lance Armstrong's but all the top names from the EPO years 1990 onward...

Kléber

I agree Dave but the rumours say that the samples tested from 1999 included positive tests from Alex Zulle and Laurent Dufaux. Were this to be confirmed, no one would really care, it would be a footnote on cyclingnews.com

Were Armstrong to face the same story, it would be front page on many newspapers around the world.

dave_1

Kléber wrote:

I agree Dave but the rumours say that the samples tested from 1999 included positive tests from Alex Zulle and Laurent Dufaux. Were this to be confirmed, no one would really care, it would be a footnote on cyclingnews.com

Were Armstrong to face the same story, it would be front page on many newspapers around the world.

I never knew that...but nobody would bet against Indurain showing up postive too for EPO if he was retested so ..one thing...it's estimated that 40 retested samples from the 98 TDF were + for EPO during the same experiment to refine the EPO test that allegedly showed up LAs 99 sample +... but only Beltran's name was highlighted...we never heard about the others...so it seems unfair again to go afer 1 man when many deserve the same scrutiny

blazing_saddles

Kléber wrote:

I agree Dave but the rumours say that the samples tested from 1999 included positive tests from Alex Zulle and Laurent Dufaux. Were this to be confirmed, no one would really care, it would be a footnote on cyclingnews.com

Also interesting in the context that these pair were of the Festina '98 crowd.
Shows that the scandal did absolutely nothing to change the mentality within the peloton. It certainly wasn't any sort of watershed.......
......as if we didn't know.

Kléber

But many others continued to take EPO during the 1999 season. Don't read too much into Zulle or Dufaux, I'd bet that well over half the bunch were using EPO throughout the season. There was no test so riders could use it with impunity.

dave_1

Kléber wrote:

But many others continued to take EPO during the 1999 season. Don't read too much into Zulle or Dufaux, I'd bet that well over half the bunch were using EPO throughout the season. There was no test so riders could use it with impunity.

I know..how disheartening it is...to reward these people by showing up on the roadside every race when they treat us as fools really...when I look at it like you say....depressing

dennisn

Seek help. You guys really need it. I can't beiieve what a complete waste of time
all this is. I'm even starting to get down on myself for even following it. But I will grant you that all this has become quite funny of late.

Dennis Noward

richard wants a baum

dennisn wrote:

Seek help. You guys really need it. I can't beiieve what a complete waste of time
all this is. I'm even starting to get down on myself for even following it. But I will grant you that all this has become quite funny of late.

Dennis Noward

Dennis you dont know these people, who are you to tell them they help? :roll: I wonder why you even post, you seem hell bent on arguing with people that have opions, while its rare to even see the slightest thing that resembles a comment on cycling from you.

6288

i'm with dennis on this one ... this is essentially a whole thread telling us that LA is a bad, bad man and should not be allowed near puppies or children ,,, and there are at least 50 other topics on here the same ...

but if zulle and dufaux do it ... that's not so bad, they are just high spirited ...

and indurain, well he was just Big Mig ... and if you have the name Big in your name well you must be way cool ...

it's a double standard ... an amusing one i grant you but it just gets old ... lliek 2 months ago ...

LA will race, likely win something ... and then go away again .. he's unlikely to read bike radar and care what anyone on here thinks ....so who are people trying to convincer/impress ... wives, girlfriends, the girl who steps 4 feet away from you at the bus stop every morning and makes sure she gets off one stop earlier at night just incase ... who?

Cycling Dave

That's quite a silly comment. We watch bike racing because it would be the best sport in the world if it were honest. If Armstrong, who has made himself a poster boy for cycling, and for cancer recovery, has been cheating and it is proved, I would be gutted, absolutely gutted. But I reckon there should be a topic like this to get Lancophiles (like me) thinking.

If cycling fans (who may not influence cyclists' behaviour directly) continue to question the innocence of someone like LA, who is very powerful in the media and in cycling, then the sponsors (who arguably have the most influence in cycling) pick up on public opinion, it is their compass almost.

I do not want LA to be found guilty of having cheated, just like I didn't want Vino to have cheated, or Rasmussen (who may not have cheated, but behaved very suspiciously). I would like very much for our sport to be clean and honest one day, and for us to have no reason to look at a stunning performance (Ricco, Rasmussen, Landis) and shake our heads saying "yip, he's probably on drugs, just waiting for the headline now". But at the moment, sadly, the cynicism has been justified. For every rider (virtually) in LA's team to have doped, and for him not to have, seems absurd to me. But then there's the fact he has never been caught, despite being the most tested athlete in history (?).

I may not welcome the cynicism, but more power to your typewriters folks.

dennisn

richard wants a baum wrote:

dennisn wrote:

Seek help. You guys really need it. I can't beiieve what a complete waste of time
all this is. I'm even starting to get down on myself for even following it. But I will grant you that all this has become quite funny of late.

Dennis Noward

Dennis you dont know these people, who are you to tell them they help? :roll: I wonder why you even post, you seem hell bent on arguing with people that have opions, while its rare to even the slightest thing that resembles a comment on cycling.

I thought you didn't have an opinion. I thought you KNEW it all. I would look into long term help. Really!!!

Dennis Noward

richard wants a baum

Mate you are deluded please refer me to when i said i knew it all? You have no idea what anyone on this forum is like your making assuptions, which is exactly what your accusing everyone else of. Climb down of you high horse and let people have there say without your repetitive crap.

SpaceJunk

6288 wrote:

i'm with dennis on this one ... this is essentially a whole thread telling us that LA is a bad, bad man and should not be allowed near puppies or children ,,, and there are at least 50 other topics on here the same ...

but if zulle and dufaux do it ... that's not so bad, they are just high spirited ...

and indurain, well he was just Big Mig ... and if you have the name Big in your name well you must be way cool ...

it's a double standard ... an amusing one i grant you but it just gets old ... lliek 2 months ago ...

LA will race, likely win something ... and then go away again .. he's unlikely to read bike radar and care what anyone on here thinks ....so who are people trying to convincer/impress ... wives, girlfriends, the girl who steps 4 feet away from you at the bus stop every morning and makes sure she gets off one stop earlier at night just incase ... who?

So in essence 6288, it sounds like you're questioning the whole purpose of forums. Why talk about Lance, he won't read this forum.

So true. But without speulating on other poster's motives, when I write a post about LA, or Jimmy the Sprinter for that matter, I'm just expressing my opinion.

Can I ask you 6288 why you make posts on this forum? Who are you trying to impress??

Kléber

6288, it's not a double standard. I'll condemn Zulle and Dufaux, indeed both got busted by the Festina affair, we know what they were up to. Zulle's courtroom confessions of the industrial doping programs within the teams he rode for were quite instructive.

Zulle confessed. He didn't deny in the face of overwhelming evidence, he didn't blacklist people who asked awkward questions, he didn't claim the most shady doping doctors were merely "family friends". Zulle didn't link up with large sportswear apparels to flog a million wristbands for charity, his face doesn't still adorn bike shops and magazine covers. He didn't invent a phoney tale of recovery from illness to the top of sport based on notions of hard work, the best technology and a new motivation forged in dark nights spent struggling to stay alive.

If Armstrong was found to have doped it would make his entire story one of the greatest swindles and hustles ever done in sport, if not history. It would represent the cynical imposition of money and marketing above sportsmanship and honesty, it would represent risking your health instead of valuing it. Millions sick from cancer and grasping for any tale of hope and optimism would get a punch in the gut. So this man's tale is way more important than any other cyclist.

aurelio_-_banned

Cycling Dave wrote:

... then there's the fact he has never been caught, despite being the most tested athlete in history (?)

Even if this were true, which it is not, it would mean nothing given that right through the Armstrong era there was no test for `800 ml of packed cells` autologous blood doping... It has also been claimed that the doctor acting as the UCI`s `vampire` was a good friend of the doctor on Armstrong`s team, and he used to tip him off when a blood test was imminent. There have also been suspicions that USP indulged in urine substitution and so on... Anyhow all this has been discussed in detail on here previously.