Running during the winter, anyone?

Ramanujan

I've started running for a bit of variety during the winter. I hate cycling when it's really cold and wet and dark.
However, one thing I've noticed is that my legs are killing me!
I've been doing it about 3 weeks now and started off with short 2 mile runs. I'm now up to about 7 or 8 miles but my legs feel like they've been put through a mincer. I'm pretty sure it's the impact of running on hard ground that I'm struggling with. My legs just aren't used to it.
Also, I'm incredibly slow.
I run around Hyde Park at lunchtimes and I get overtaken by just about everyone....young office girls, old men ...the lot! ...even when I push quite hard.
I'm pretty fit cycling wise: sub 1 hour 25 and an average 3rd cat. Surely I should be better at running than this, or am I expecting too much too soon?

Any observations appreciated.

mclarent

I suck at running, much more than I do at cycling Did a couple of running events this year, and never again I can tell you. Managed to do a half marathon in under 2 hours, but it was a real struggle - both the running and the motivation!! By the end of my training though, I could see why people did it - you get into your rhythm, almost meditational etc - put it just doesn't give me the same pleasure as cycling.

Also, outside of the CV benefit, I'm not convinced about the cross training, as thinking about the action makes me suspect that muscle groups are used differently - also much more hamstring involved in running I would think (someone feel free to correct me!)

http://www.cobr.co.uk/e-cobr_information/t_and_r_section/sections/cycle_training/cross_training/running.shtml

If you're going to keep going, please do make sure you get proper trainers - runnersworld or somewhere similar (there's one place down by Victoria I remember) will do you a proper fitting including videoing your running style. It really shocked me how much my feet collapse inwards (over pronating) when running, and I would never run distance in "not proper" shoes again!

andy_wrx

I started-out running, damaged my back, switched over to cycling, had a back op, now run in Winter and cycle in Summer.
- running is great in Winter, compared to cycling in the dark or ice and snow.
And it's very social in the running club.

(I tried tri but it reminded me just how much I hate swimming...)

Yes, they're completely different things. Both require and develop good CV fitness, but use rather different muscle groups.

Take it slowly. Your and joints (hips, knees, ankles, the lot) are not used to impact, your muscles not used to eccentric contractions you get trying to both cushion the landing and then stride through and push off.

Keep at it and it'll get better. Increase your mileage slowly - if you've gone from zero to 7 or 8 miles in 3 weeks, that's far too much : rule of thumb is 10% increase a week !

After you've got more used to it you can think about going quicker, starting speedwork, but initially you want a good base, so don't worry about being slow.

Try to run on softer surfaces - off road on grass or mud, or on an artificial running track.
Tarmac is pretty hard, but concrete or flagstones is really hard.

And like the man said, get some decent shoes : go to a proper running shop, not your local JJB Sports or similar chain, and expect to pay £40-50 at the least, up to maybe £100+...(how much are your bike shoes ?)
Expect the running shoes to wear-out in perhaps 500 miles...they'll still look OK, you won't have worn-out the soles or anything, but they won't shock-absorb in the way they need to.

If you're running in Hyde Park, maybe have a look at Serpentine running club ?

landrew

Even if you are fit from other sports running places considerable pressure on your leg muscles so take it slowly. The comment about no more than 10% a week increase is good but remember that this is a maximum and not a target (and it may be wise to cut back every fourth week as well).

Your speed will increase as your mileage increases - don't worry about being slow. In fact buiding up your mileage so quickly may have contributed to your slow speed. If you cut back you may find your speed increasing. And remember the people who are overtaking you may have been running for years.

Running on softer surfaces is good advice but again you need to cautious about this as running on uneven surfaces needs to be developed slowly as well. And do get some shoes from a running shop - they need to assess your gait to provide you with the appropiate shoes.

nasahapley

Another winter runner here - can't be doing with the roads in really horrible weather. Been doing some LDWA events recently and really enjoying them; friendly atmosphere and with a similar level of organisation to a decent sportive - all for seven or eight quid!

Can't add much to the advice that's already been given, particularly re running off-road if at all possible. I know it may not be the same in London as in t'Dales but your joints will thank you for it. The only thing I'd quibble with is sticking religiously to the 10% increase per week thing - especially as you're already fit from cycling - if you can eventually manage 7-8 miles ok then trying 10 or thereabouts won't kill you if you go out a bit slower.

Ramanujan

thanks for the advice guys. I think I have been doing too much too soon. I did 8 miles on Monday and got a very bad pain in my left knee.(an old football injury) but ran through the pain.
Tuesday I did about 5 miles and my right hip hurt really badly (an old cycling injury from a crash) as well as my lower left leg and knee but again I stupidly ran through the pain. Today Wednesday, it feels like my legs have siezed up. It's painful just to walk.

I’m going to back off the distance I think . I have been trying to run on the grass but yesterday it was raining and so I stayed on the paths.

Richie G

I'm another winter runner. I definately think you're trying to do too much too soon. I never run on consecutive days; the body needs time to adjust to the pounding. You really do need rest days when you run. I had 3 months off from running in the spring when i was concentrating on cycling and it took a few weeks before i got back up to the miles you're doing at the moment. I'd say just take your time building up the miles (the 10% thing is a pretty good guide to be honest) and give yourself a day or 2 between runs. Some people seem to be able to switch from cycling to running without a problem but i've always found my running fitness and cycling fitness to be only loosely related.

Just as an aside, i had my first run for 6 weeks (following a cycling accident) on Monday. 2 miles - absolutely knackered! My previous run was a marathon, which just goes to show how quickly you can de-train! :?

Hope this all helps!

Rich

mclarent

+1 for "too much too soon", stick a rest day why doncha?!

However, I also got some "body pain" when I started running, primarily my ankles. That went with time, and I learnt when it was ok for me to "run through it" and when I should call it off...

Ramanujan

good call guys.
I tend to be an all or nothing sort of person. I need to restrain that side, i think.

One observation I have :
Running and cycling seems to be unrelated in terms of fitness.
It seems to me that cycling uses a combination of strength and CV fitness, whereas running seems to be primarily about CV fitness and technique .

When I was at school ( a long time ago) I was incredibly bad at any sports that involved running. I was always in the last 3 or 4 ( out of about 50) in cross country races and dead last in any track and field stuff over 100m.
Whilst I'm innately crap , and always have been,at any kind of running, I've always been quite strong physically. And I think this is where I've made up for my poor-ish CV system on the bike, by being 'strong'.
Don't know whether this makes any sense or not. Maybe I need to put the crack pipe down when I post. :?:

nasahapley

Ramanujan wrote:

thanks for the advice guys. I think I have been doing too much too soon. I did 8 miles on Monday and got a very bad pain in my left knee.(an old football injury) but ran through the pain.
Tuesday I did about 5 miles and my right hip hurt really badly (an old cycling injury from a crash) as well as my lower left leg and knee but again I stupidly ran through the pain. Today Wednesday, it feels like my legs have siezed up. It's painful just to walk.

I’m going to back off the distance I think . I have been trying to run on the grass but yesterday it was raining and so I stayed on the paths.

After reading that, I take back my previous comment re not worrying about the +10% per week rule; you might want to do -10% for a while! Just out of interest, what sort of shoes are you running in? I assume they're road shoes, but how old are they? I ask because while I can happily knock out 10+ miles day after day if I've got the right shoes on, if I have to do more than a few miles on road with my fell shoes (which have virtually no cushioning), then I too get trouble with my lower legs and knees. If your running shoes are getting on a bit, or if you walk around in them day-to-day (which usually wears the heel out a lot quicker than running), then a nice new pair with lots of cushioning may make a big difference.

Ramanujan

yeah..I've got proper new shoes...for my running style etc

ConsciousPilot

andy_wrx wrote:

Increase your mileage slowly - if you've gone from zero to 7 or 8 miles in 3 weeks, that's far too much : rule of thumb is 10% increase a week !

Great..... zero + 10% = zero
Think I'll stay on the sofa!!!

tlw1

I started running, but it has knackered my left knee. Almost feels like fluid on it & hurts when walking, driving & going up/down steps. Yet cycling is ok??????

It is getting on my nerves because I could feel the difference it fitness!

tlw1

I started running, but it has knackered my left knee. Almost feels like fluid on it & hurts when walking, driving & going up/down steps. Yet cycling is ok??????

It is getting on my nerves because I could feel the difference it fitness!

Eat My Dust

TBH running is taking over from my love of cycling. I did a 10 mile run on Saturday on country tracks that were all closed off from traffic. The only thing I came across were horses, walker and other people running. The freedom of not having to worry about road positioning, nutters in cars, spare parts, punctures etc is just a weight off ones shoulders!

To the OP, for about the first month of running I had sore bits and aches nearly all of the time. I think your body needs a bit of "breaking in" when you first start off running. Once you get used to it you'll be flying along.

nasahapley

Eat My Dust wrote:

TBH running is taking over from my love of cycling. I did a 10 mile run on Saturday on country tracks that were all closed off from traffic. The only thing I came across were horses, walker and other people running. The freedom of not having to worry about road positioning, nutters in cars, spare parts, punctures etc is just a weight off ones shoulders!

I know exactly what you mean - if I spend a few months doing a lot of cycling I start to get a bit bored of seeing the same roads over and over, sorting out all the kit and washing the bike. I'll start to do a load more running instead and think that's ace for a while, but then after a few months I'll get bored of the same running routes, start going out on the bike more and remember why that's so much fun all over again! Not really a problem as such, but if I could just stick to one thing I might actually get quite good at it!

Ramanujan

TBH running is taking over from my love of cycling. I did a 10 mile run on Saturday on country tracks that were all closed off from traffic. The only thing I came across were horses, walker and other people running. The freedom of not having to worry about road positioning, nutters in cars, spare parts, punctures etc is just a weight off ones shoulders!

I tend to agree, mate.
I did a fair bit of trail running in my early 20's in rural Hertfordshire. It's what running is all about IMHO: alone running through tracks in pine forests, not seeing anyone for hours. It's unbeatable I reckon.
Running around a rainy Hyde Park at lunctimes whilst dodging tourists and other runners really isn't that inspiring.It's a nice change from cycling though.

liversedge

Don't bother with running unless you want to be a runner or triathlete. its sh1t for cycling fitness aside from CV. You're better off getting on a turbo/gym bike or perhaps a rowing machine.

you'll almost certainly injure yourself by doing too much/going to fast with your residual cycling fitness - be that a minor twinge or a fullon stress fracture or muscle strain.

in other words, cycling is great cross training for runners, running is sh1t cross training for cyclists.

All IMHO of course

nasahapley

liversedge wrote:

Don't bother with running unless you want to be a runner or triathlete

...or if, y'know, you happen to enjoy it I think there's great crossover benefits to be had from hill-running; there's not many fell-runners at my local (running) club who aren't also pretty handy on a bike, despite doing far fewer cycling miles than your average roadie. This advice is of course of limited use if you're in London...

Totally agree that time on a rowing machine is worthwhile though, if you can get for rowing you'll be fit for almost any endurance sport.

toshmund

Try a pair of Fell shoes and just do a bit of X-country. I have been hobbling around until the Wednesday sometimes, after doing a Sunday half marathon. The continual stride on tarmac etc etc. Done a few Fell races, Bradgate Park for instance. 14.5 miles of continual mud/uphill/downhill and a good crowd, to boot. Was fine the following day. Cannot go wrong with a pair of Walsh's.

Ramanujan

Don't bother with running unless you want to be a runner or triathlete. its sh1t for cycling fitness aside from CV. You're better off getting on a turbo/gym bike or perhaps a rowing machine.

I'm pretty sure it's not going to help my cycling. That much I know.

I've been turbo-ing for the last few years in the winter and it is driving me insane.
I can force myself to do it but the bottom line is I don't enjoy it.

ATM I'm enjoying running despite the pain.
Last year I got my FTP up from 270w in november to around 330w in April, but it just killed my motivation. I'd much rather do something I enjoy and worry about fitness in the early spring. I might hop back on the turbo then

Eat My Dust

Running can improve your cycling. Over all fitness increase = benefit to cycling. Weight loss = benefit to cycling.

st68

been running now for 3 years now and it took about 6 months to get rid of sore legs after running but now i rarely get pain but i built my mileage up slowly & i found out that good quality shoes helped me i run about 23 miles a week in 3 sessions

andrewgturnbull

nasahapley wrote:

liversedge wrote:

Don't bother with running unless you want to be a runner or triathlete

...or if, y'know, you happen to enjoy it I think there's great crossover benefits to be had from hill-running; there's not many fell-runners at my local (running) club who aren't also pretty handy on a bike, despite doing far fewer cycling miles than your average roadie. This advice is of course of limited use if you're in London...

Totally agree that time on a rowing machine is worthwhile though, if you can get for rowing you'll be fit for almost any endurance sport.

Hi there.

Funnily enough the cross over from runners to cycling is generally more successful then cyclists who try their hand at running.

One thing that good runners understand is how to suffer properly!

Cheers, Andy

phil s

I'm a roadie who's flirted with running the past couple of years. Last year it was all a bit painful. This year I suddenly appeared to have got good at it and did a 10k in 38'50" which I was pleased with considering I hated running so much before. I wouldn't say the running has helped me physiologically on the bike, but it has helped me realise that I can push myself a bit harder, a bit longer. I found running uphill fantastic, not so much running downhill though.

Tom Butcher

Cross country leagues are good fun - normally very cheap too - I'm doing a league this Winter - 6 races for £2 each - all 5-6 miles and proper tough cross country none of this running round a local park nonsense. You do have to be in a club but my partner joins me as a family member - and the standard is so low I'm on to win the vet 40s category in the club competition - more than I'm likely to do in my cycling club!

andrewgturnbull

Tom Butcher wrote:

Cross country leagues are good fun - normally very cheap too - I'm doing a league this Winter - 6 races for £2 each - all 5-6 miles and proper tough cross country none of this running round a local park nonsense. You do have to be in a club but my partner joins me as a family member - and the standard is so low I'm on to win the vet 40s category in the club competition - more than I'm likely to do in my cycling club!

East of Scotland XC league is free. I'm not sure what otehr clubs do, but my running club (Central AC) picks up the entire cost

;-)

boybiker

I hate running and everyone I know who does run or has run always ends up the doctor telling them to give it up because they are destroying their joints, I see quite a lot of runners on the road and they all have a terrible style which you just know is going to hurt.
Which is why i don't run unless someone is chasing me with a big axe.

mclarent

boybiker wrote:

Which is why i don't run unless someone is chasing me with a big axe.

Happen often?

nasahapley

boybiker wrote:

I see quite a lot of runners on the road and they all have a terrible style which you just know is going to hurt.

True that; when I used to row it amazed me how many people would spend ages getting their rowing technique just right, but when it came to running took the view that 'running's just running' and ended up knackering themselves. Suppose you get the same thing with cycling too.

boybiker

mclarent wrote:

boybiker wrote:

Which is why i don't run unless someone is chasing me with a big axe.

Happen often?

Far too often which is strange because I am always so lovable and sweet