Drafting is dangerous, aggressive and needlessly stupid.

STEFANOS4784

What everyone has failed to mention/notice is that it's quite cold out!!

Brrrrr, not looking forward to the ride home :arrow:

spen666

DonDaddyD wrote:

........Drafting no matter how innocent the intention is an act of aggression .....

Not necessarily, it could simply be that draftee is knackered and is trying to "get a tow" towards their destination.

It may be for other reasons, you cannot say all drafting is an act of aggression

ride_whenever

what about tagging onto a peloton as it goes past?

il_principe

cee wrote:

I never said anywhere that I had a problem with overtaking/overtakers. I merely put the devils advocate mode on to point out that someone who writes so much about some game called silly commuter RACING, then goes on to complain so much about someone being a little close. jeeez.

Cee you're obviously not an initiate into the wonderful (and strange) world of SCR. The vast majority that partake are commuters/leisure riders, not amateur racers or sportive riders. I wouldn't draft anyone on a commute unless I knew them - chances are they're not used to that sort of cycling and with traffic/peds/London road surfaces drafting is inadvisable at best.

Suffice to say - I'm so damn fast that drafting on the commute is never an issue.

If DDD had posted this on the Road forum then I would agree with some of your points, but this thread is about commuting so I reckon DDD's points are valid. On the other hand I like training alone because no-one to draft - makes training tougher.

biondino

spen666 wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

........Drafting no matter how innocent the intention is an act of aggression .....

Not necessarily, it could simply be that draftee is knackered and is trying to "get a tow" towards their destination.

It may be for other reasons, you cannot say all drafting is an act of aggression

A rare moment, but I completely agree with Spen here. I'd take it farther and suggest drafting is almost never an aggressive act, despite it being selfish or unsafe in many circumstances.

lost_in_thought

biondino wrote:

spen666 wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

........Drafting no matter how innocent the intention is an act of aggression .....

Not necessarily, it could simply be that draftee is knackered and is trying to "get a tow" towards their destination.

It may be for other reasons, you cannot say all drafting is an act of aggression

A rare moment, but I completely agree with Spen here. I'd take it farther and suggest drafting is almost never an aggressive act, despite it being selfish or unsafe in many circumstances.

Yeah, I'm agreed with spen and biondino, in the sense that the drafters may not understand the ramifications of what they're doing, both for their and your safety.

Those of us who understand what's going on would probably never draft, unless we were feeling particularly knackered or lazy or knew the person we were drafting.

However, prior to coming on here I admit that there were times I was following close behind someone and actually congratulating myself on 'keeping up' having no knowledge of this 'drafting'. I suspect that there are others out there doing the same, or people who know what they're doing but don't think it's dangerous.

Sometimes, yes, it could be an act of aggression, but I would suspect that those occasions are in the minority.

roger_merriman

Yes thoughtless rather than aggression.

il_principe

You can see how it could be easily misconstrued as aggression - particularly by someone more experienced to being in a car. Tailgating on the motorway is usually interpreted as being aggressive even if it is just sheer stupidity. Normally it's both of course.

lost_in_thought

jashburnham wrote:

You can see how it could be easily misconstrued as aggression - particularly by someone more experienced to being in a car. Tailgating on the motorway is usually interpreted as being aggressive even if it is just sheer stupidity. Normally it's both of course.

Very valid point. If someone's tailgating me in my car I almost always presume they're just being a tw*t.

Littigator

In the amount of the HUUUUUUGE and bewilderingly lenghty posts by ahem certain persons on this thread that I have read, I agree that drafting is wrong on the open road when not in an environment where both or all parties involved acquiesce in the matter.

It can be used aggresively, if the draftee becomes aware that the draftor is uncomfortable with the draftee drafting. If the draftee persists in drafting the draftor then this could be to purposefully intimidate the draftor and is therefore aggressive. If, however, the draftee is unaware either through thoughtlessness or selfishness how it makes the draftor feel then it cannot in anyway be aggressive. It can, of course, still be intimidating because that is measured by how it is construed by the draftor

D'yousee?

lost_in_thought

Littigator wrote:

In the amount of the HUUUUUUGE and bewilderingly lenghty posts by ahem certain persons on this thread that I have read, I agree that drafting is wrong on the open road when not in an environment where both or all parties involved acquiesce in the matter.

It can be used aggresively, if the draftee becomes aware that the draftor is uncomfortable with the draftee drafting. If the draftee persists in drafting the draftor then this could be to purposefully intimidate the draftor and is therefore aggressive. If, however, the draftee is unaware either through thoughtlessness or selfishness how it makes the draftor feel then it cannot in anyway be aggressive. It can, of course, still be intimidating because that is measured by how it is construed by the draftor

D'yousee?

Bl**dy lawyers.

Hang on a mo... I thought the draftee would be the one being drafted and the draftor the one doing the drafting...

il_principe

Littigator wrote:

In the amount of the HUUUUUUGE and bewilderingly lenghty posts by ahem certain persons on this thread that I have read, I agree that drafting is wrong on the open road when not in an environment where both or all parties involved acquiesce in the matter.

It can be used aggresively, if the draftee becomes aware that the draftor is uncomfortable with the draftee drafting. If the draftee persists in drafting the draftor then this could be to purposefully intimidate the draftor and is therefore aggressive. If, however, the draftee is unaware either through thoughtlessness or selfishness how it makes the draftor feel then it cannot in anyway be aggressive. It can, of course, still be intimidating because that is measured by how it is construed by the draftor

D'yousee?

Nope, that reads like a rough draft.

If you get my drift.

blackworx

DonDaddyD wrote:

you are safest travelling at ambient traffic speeds by the way

Hear hear, and I totally agree with your OP. Drafting in town is a stupid risk for what little benefit you get. Simple fact is: if you don't know the other rider you shouldn't be drafting them.

The only situations where drafting is acceptable are those in which it is expected -- and those all involve being part of the same race/club/group ride.

I have to admit I draft buses and vans all the time though, but imo that's only my own safety I'm playing with and, as previous posters have said, they come with the added benefit of brake lights and a great big roaring engine.

DonDaddyD

blackworx wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

you are safest travelling at ambient traffic speeds by the way

I have to admit I draft buses and vans all the time though,

Ok a Bus can keep you warm in the cold of winter, but have you no love for your lungs man!!??

blackworx

DonDaddyD wrote:

Ok a Bus can keep you warm in the cold of winter, but have you no love for your lungs man!!??

If the bus is moving fast enough for me to draft it, then that's not a worry :twisted:

The Chingford Skinhead

Littigator wrote:

In the amount of the HUUUUUUGE and bewilderingly lenghty posts by ahem certain persons on this thread that I have read, I agree that drafting is wrong on the open road when not in an environment where both or all parties involved acquiesce in the matter.

It can be used aggresively, if the draftee becomes aware that the draftor is uncomfortable with the draftee drafting. If the draftee persists in drafting the draftor then this could be to purposefully intimidate the draftor and is therefore aggressive. If, however, the draftee is unaware either through thoughtlessness or selfishness how it makes the draftor feel then it cannot in anyway be aggressive. It can, of course, still be intimidating because that is measured by how it is construed by the draftor

D'yousee?

Far be it from me, a mere lay person, but I'd like to take issue with your royal legalness but I'm not sure a lack of intention means something isn't agressive, in the same way that not meaning to be racist doesn't mean what you said or did wasn't (didn't McPherson cover all of this in his "institutional racism" explanation.

I've seen blokes walk up to other blokes, invade their personal space and start talking loud "having a larf" or making a point. They didn't think they were being aggressive - but the person on the recieveing end certainly thought they were. ~Same with the dating skills of some - heavy petting to them, aggressive and predatory to their victim.

The only time drafting should be acceptable not on a track is if you know the person and you're taking turns. To do it to a stranger is like tail gating but, as DDD says, far more dangerous as the person being "used" doesn't have brake lights or the protection of biumpers.

Given the "ambient" speed that DDD appears to travel the person drafting is likely to understand cycle racing and should therefore understand the risks and the social ettiquette around drafting. My advice, signal them past, if they don't move you pull out and slow down so they have to - and give them an ear full

Eat My Dust

I don't mind people drafting me. If they're that fast then I'm happy to give them a tow. TBH the only time I draft anything it's nearly always a bus/van/car/HGV, they make getting to work a lot faster and easier on the legs.

plapping

They can draft me as long as-

a) They are slow enough
b) They give me a pie (has to be vegetarian though!)
c) They don't mind my early evening ahem, wind.

chromehoof

lost_in_thought wrote:

Sometimes, yes, it could be an act of aggression, but I would suspect that those occasions are in the minority.

I think you need to make an assessment about the person doing it too though. Like, if they don't look like they have a clue about this whole 'drafting' thing, as you said, maybe one can be a little more forgiving.

I don't know whether I'd consider it an act of aggression in the case where someone seems like they do know what they're doing. I think moreso its just plain bad manners. Like, if you're out on a training spin and someone sits on your wheel all day you'd be more than annoyed. Everyone's expected to take a turn and pull their weight. Not doing so is bad form. I don't see why this is any different when commuting.

In saying that, during my commute home yesterday this guy I kept passing out would persist on going in front of me when stopped at the next lights. That really gets my goat. Eventually I lost it so just decided to sit on his wheel for a couple of miles. I could tell he found it uncomfortable. Some people would have given out to him for what he was doing. This was my way of dealing with it. Probably makes me not so nice a person, but I was annoyed to be fair.

DonDaddyD

When I'm holding 19/20+mph and I've got some guy on a slick tyre mountain bike/carbon beast of burden in full lycra less than an inch of my wheel its an act of aggression because:

(i) Who rides a slick tyre mountain bike that fast for that long. Clearly he is racing.

(ii) Full lycra on his Carbon/really expensive steed knows what he is doing and could easily overtake me. 22+mph really isn't that fast for him.

If it's not an act of aggression then its just f*cking annoying worthy of response that includes f-words.

If it is some person that doesn't have a clue what they're doing then cool. I'll drop 'em.

But I'm not talking about people who are drafting and at least a foot behind me. I'm talking about people so close they can see the detail of the stitching on my lycra shorts. To get that close you'd have had to make a concious decision about being a pr*ck.

AMRcycling

I wouldn't recomend, not anymore...

Since my incident, I have had constant issues with my shoulder and I am off the bike now.

http://amrcycling.blogspot.com/2008/08/how-do-you-feel-asked-stephen-still.html

Safe riding!

cee

Don.....David Eick?? yes he is the executive producer of the new Battlestar Galactica but I meant David Icke....famous most notoriously for saying he was the son of god and also for his followers splendid collection of purple jump suits.

And yes it was Numb3rs, not House..

a certain 'ahem' member

il_principe

cee wrote:

collection of purple jump suits.

And yes it was Numb3rs, not House..

God numb3rs s a load of cr@p. House on the other hand, great TV.

Tempestas

Car drivers have signs reading:

'Caution! Baby on board' or 'If you can read this your too close'

Now maybe cyclists need them on the backs of their saddles....

Ideas please.....

DonDaddyD

Tempestas wrote:

Car drivers have signs reading:

'Caution! Baby on board' or 'If you can read this your too close'

Now maybe cyclists need them on the backs of their saddles....

Ideas please.....

'Beware of Fart'

DonDaddyD

jashburnham wrote:

cee wrote:

collection of purple jump suits.

And yes it was Numb3rs, not House..

God numb3rs s a load of cr@p. House on the other hand, great TV.

Can't ever remember watching House, but I liked the idea of Numb3rs, using maths to help solve crimes commited by psychopaths - alluding to the notion that our actions, no matter how random, are just the product and process of a mathematical equation...

<< Ooo I've gone all crosseyed >>

bigmat

I think its pretty harmless to get in somebody's tow on the daily commute, but I'd usually leave a foot or so gap and position myself slightly to one side so that I could safely negotiate a sudden stop. Is that OK? Did get into a shouting match with a courier once but I'm pretty sure he was just upset that a commuter on a mountain bike was sitting on his wheel going over Waterloo bridge without breaking a sweat.

As far as a solution, I'd recommend the body compression bib shorts from Decathlon that I wore once only last summer - there was an "airflow" fabric over my arse that was so see through anybody drafting me could've told em what I'd had for breakfast that morning. I spent a lot of time on my own that day...

DonDaddyD

MatHammond wrote:

I think its pretty harmless to get in somebody's tow on the daily commute, but I'd usually leave a foot or so gap and position myself slightly to one side so that I could safely negotiate a sudden stop. Is that OK?

Yeah, its what I do when I'm following someone, maybe not a foot away. I wouldn't even consider that drafting outright drafting.

ansbaradigeidfran

DonDaddyD wrote:

jashburnham wrote:

cee wrote:

collection of purple jump suits.

And yes it was Numb3rs, not House..

God numb3rs s a load of cr@p. House on the other hand, great TV.

Can't ever remember watching House, but I liked the idea of Numb3rs, using maths to help solve crimes commited by psychopaths - alluding to the notion that our actions, no matter how random, are just the product and process of a mathematical equation...

<< Ooo I've gone all crosseyed >>

I like the idea of Numbers, but the way the lead character presents all his explanations really gets on my wick. Be warned, though, that I'm the kind of guy that feels the urge to yell at the TV when CSI is on and they do some Hollywood computer stuff that doesn't resemble real life one jot (like brute forcing a password one character at a time - you get the password all at once or not at all!) :evil:

dapperdan

Afternoon all, I've been lurking for a little while but I've got to weigh in on this one...

A few years ago I was cycling home along a busy road in London after Liverpool won the European Cup, when some bloke began drafting me. I waved him on a few times but he ignored me and I was worried about what woud happen if I had to stop suddenly.

So - and I'm sure you'll agree this was the wise and sensible course of action - I stopped suddenly. He crashed into the back of me and ended up on the floor. I was fine and feeling vindicated but remorseful, so stopped to ask if he was OK, which he was, if a bit grazed. He wasn't best pleased though.

Fortunately, after he hit me, he calmed down a bit and we had an enlightening conversation about how drafting was a good tactic in a race and how a busy road, at night, after a big football match, might be a bit different from a racing situation.

So, what's the moral of the story?