Drafting is dangerous, aggressive and needlessly stupid.

DonDaddyD

Yes this could go in the rant section, but I want to draw more attention to it.

Yesterday along Clapham Common heading to Clapham South, I picked up a drafter. This guy was so close and so perfectly behind me I actually, at first, couldn't see his head. As the Common leads into Clapham South the road narrows and there is hardly space for cyclists to ride, its one of the worst possible places to start worrying whether you can stop safely and suddenly because without fail you are going to need to stop at some point.

Later I picked up another drafter in Tooting, this time I shouted "Why must you draft me". I slowed dramatically and he passed me saying thank you or f*ck you. There was nothing to my right he could have past me at any time, pr*ck.

I swear to the Gods that people find holy that the next pr*ck that drafts me, I'm gonna confront them with a "must you draft me!?!" And actually ask them why they think this is suitable or even a good idea when the road is prone to being slippery. I may most likely throw in some F-words for full effect.

To all drafters, the simple fact is this:

If your driving a car you wouldn't hug the persons bumper at any speed. When going even faster (i.e. on a mototrway) you give further space to the car infornt because you need more braking distance. The same works for a bike. Sure if your on a track or training with team mates then drafting is part of the sport/exercise. But when commuting we aren't racing or training!

Whilst I may SCR on my commute I never willingly put myself or others at danger. I make it my point to move out wide as I begin to get close so that I am visible to the them as I like to make myself visible to all road users.

Drafting no matter how innocent the intention is an act of aggression that can so easily become dangerous, as dangerous as cutting someone up, over taking them on the left (cyclist to cyclist) and not signalling when turning.

When you're in a car on a commute a person right behind you sitting on your bumper is an aggressive indication that they want you to speed up. The victim then speeds up because if you stop suddenly your worried about the person behind crashing into to you. This is the same for when your on a bike. However, there are a few choice differences between a car and a bike

- A car has a rear view mirror so the motorist can see what is behind him.
- A person in a car has a protective shell around him weighing over a ton that has been impact tested. He may also have the luxury of an airbag.
- A car has brake lights which warn the people behind he is braking.

A bike however has none of the above and THIS is why cars give bikes more distance to brake - because there is no indication that they are slowing down or going to stop. I've been in a situation where the cyclist in front fell over if I was drafting him I'd have gone over the top of him. I wasn't I had time to think brake and then move around him and stop to see if he was all right. He was, he and I would have been worse if I was drafting him.

Drafting is stupid, aggressive riding that puts the cyclist in front under needless pressure. If you need to overtake, over take. Don't force the person in front to go faser because you're a bully.

I'm really f*cking annoyed at the situation I was in yesterday, I had cars an inch away from me, I'm too close to the curb for my liking and wanting to slow down, I've got a pr*ck an inch away from my back tyre and all the while I'm thinking "I need to keep myself safe".

Don't do this, if I ever crash because a cyclist was too close to me to stop in time, I'm not going to be very nice in the aftermath.

Give ample distance between you and the cyclist in front.

il_principe

If someone is able to draft you it means one thing - you aint going fast enough. MTFU man!

Seriously though - it is very annoying (at least it was on the few occasions it happened to me) especially when the person drafting is a numpty with poor handling skills. I find braking sharply a few times or just dropping them completely to be the best solution. The latter being preferable of course.

roger_merriman

Indeed the dumb things people do can be jaw dropping

boybiker

If I get someone drafting me I just stop at the next junction and look at them

'Yes can I help you?'

DonDaddyD

I also think extreme drafting is because people are incaable of riding socialably.

I've been in a big group of cyclist. Riding at about 17mph, I have two choices maintain the ambient group distance and ride at the group speed.

OR

Pull out wide and overtake the lot.

Both options are fun.

What I don't do is ride up close behind one guy and intimidate him.

Jamey

It's a shame... You're obviously quite fast and when you're out riding you look like a 'proper' cyclist so other people think they can draft behind you whereas I, on the other hand, have none of these qualities yet I can create foul-smelling farts that follow me for literally minutes almost on-demand.

If only there was some way to join the two things together into one uber-commuter.

gradiric

And the close drafter with no (rear) lights really winds me up as s/he is obscuring the lights of the person s/he is drafting - I often point this out to the person being drafted as there is no way they would know otherwise...

Chris_Who

Weird

Whenever I am in a car and have someone tailgate me, I slow down, not speed up.

Speeding up only encourages idiots and then they may still tailgate but now you're going even faster and the situation is more dangerous!

Far better to slow down until the distance they want to leave becomes safe enough for them to stop without hitting you.

Now, on a bike I have never thought of drafting as being aggressive or an invitation to speed up but if you feel intimidated by people hanging on your wheel, you should flick them through. If they won't take the invite, you can always swing out and slow to put them in front (check for traffic first!) and if that's not possible a good snot clearance works wonders.

Admittedly, by putting themselves close behind someone they don't know they are putting a lot of trust in you to ride smoothly and heavy traffic and signals can make drafting a bit naive in urban settings. Personally i've never tried - there's not much point drafting someone I've caught and no-one's ever caught me

Howver, at the end of the day, they pose far more danger to themselves than to you - the biggest danger of drafting being halfwheeling in which case they will go flying and you will carry on with hardly a wobble.

Chill out, get them in front and enjoy the rest of your ride.

squired

A little while ago a cyclist decided to sit right on my wheel around a roundabout. Shortly after my turn from the roundabout I switch from the road to a cycle lane that is on the pavement (heading over Chelsea bridge I think - can never remember which bridge it is!). Anyway, it was only as I made the switch that I realised the guy was so close. He even shouted abuse at me, which I found mildly amusing as it wasn't my fault that he didn't leave enough room. Funnily enough, heading over the same bridge there was a crash behind me in the summer. A group of cyclists were all riding too close. One hit the back of the guy in front and it ended up with about 6 of them going down.

cee

Firstly I agree with the point. Cycling too close to someone else who is not in a club/team/race dynamic is both dangerous and aggresive.

[devils advocate mode on]

is it not a little hypocritical that someone with

'Food Chain number = 6
A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights as you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game'

then has a problem with a little bit of racing manouvering going on. AND I predict that your retort will be something along the lines of 'Yes but.....I do it safely/when theres little traffic/at a distance that I find comfortable etcetcetc.'

But....I can never know at what distance you will be comfortable with me cycling behind you, but I am more likely to get closer to someone who shows good cycling skills (I generally ignore club and team kit, as this is never a guarantee of quality)

So.....either mix commuting and racing in a fun way and put up with the fact that someone is going to overtake too close, draft too close etc......or don't

[devils advocate mode off]

Lastly....I agree that Cycling too close to someone else who is not in a club/team/race dynamic is both dangerous and aggresive.

mrchrispy

get a dinotte 140 rear light. problem solved.
its so annoyingly bright that people dont want to draft you (seriously)

il_principe

cee wrote:

then has a problem with a little bit of racing manouvering going on. AND I predict that your retort will be something along the lines of 'Yes but.....I do it safely/when theres little traffic/at a distance that I find comfortable etcetcetc.'

But....I can never know at what distance you will be comfortable with me cycling behind you, but I am more likely to get closer to someone who shows good cycling skills (I generally ignore club and team kit, as this is never a guarantee of quality)

So.....either mix commuting and racing in a fun way and put up with the fact that someone is going to overtake too close, draft too close etc......or don't

First rule of SCR is "Ride Safe"...

cee

jashburnham
of course, but what i define as safe and what you define as safe are not always going to be the same are they. I will reiterate the point which you kindly snip quoted....If I make a judgement that a cyclist in front has mad skills on a bike, then I am more likely to make the decision to draft them, than if that person was wobbling along in the gutter.

Thats not to say of course that a judgment call is right or wrong in any given case, but it is one of the ways in which I determine whether or not I am riding safe

Gavin Gilbert

There's a handful of regulars on my route I don't mind drafting me. I know them, they know me, in a nod of recognition sort of way.

If it's someone I don't know, I just give them a big jump. If they can hold on, they're probably okay. If they make me nervous, I just sit up. There's no point getting stressed about it.

DonDaddyD

cee wrote:

[devils advocate mode on]

is it not a little hypocritical that someone with

'Food Chain number = 6
A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights as you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game'

then has a problem with a little bit of racing manouvering going on. AND I predict that your retort will be something along the lines of 'Yes but.....I do it safely/when theres little traffic/at a distance that I find comfortable etcetcetc.'

But....I can never know at what distance you will be comfortable with me cycling behind you, but I am more likely to get closer to someone who shows good cycling skills (I generally ignore club and team kit, as this is never a guarantee of quality)

So.....either mix commuting and racing in a fun way and put up with the fact that someone is going to overtake too close, draft too close etc......or don't

[devils advocate mode off]

Lastly....I agree that Cycling too close to someone else who is not in a club/team/race dynamic is both dangerous and aggresive.

Sigh... there is always one...

Are you just making a point to try and prove a point even though it is completely unrelated to the original point I was talking about?

You obviously didn't read my entire first post:

ME wrote:

Whilst I may SCR on my commute I never willingly put myself or others at danger. I make it my point to move out wide as I begin to get close so that I am visible to the them as I like to make myself visible to all road users.

Let me explain to you the difference:

When I overtake (which is the crux of SCR) I move my bike out wide (your 4/5pm) so that:

(i) You can see me
(ii) I can see the road ahead
(ii) Vehicles behind have to give me spacee as my road position indicates that I'm going to overtake.

I then overtake at a distance that doesn't obstruct or should cause discomfort to the other cyclist. You can determine, like in a car, what is a suitable distance from the things around you.

That is a big difference and completely a different subject of drafting.

I am talking about people riding up against my back tyre. Compeltely different to overtaking.

biondino

It's very straightforward to draft sensibly - stay 4 or 5 feet back and make sure you can see any road dangers as well as the dude in front can. And have a rear light.

cee

Just to make sure you got it the first time.....

cee wrote:

. AND I predict that your retort will be something along the lines of 'Yes but.....I do it safely/when theres little traffic/at a distance that I find comfortable etcetcetc.'

Sorry but its a crap argument. I only cycle on the pavement when I deem it safe. I only break the speed limit in the car when I demm it safe. I only ......etc.

that was my point.

I did think I had made it intentionally clear that devils advocate mode was firmly on......and also that I do agree that drafting too close to someone on a normal commute is dangerous, aggressive and pointless.

DonDaddyD

cee wrote:

jashburnham
of course, but what i define as safe and what you define as safe are not always going to be the same are they. I will reiterate the point which you kindly snip quoted....If I make a judgement that a cyclist in front has mad skills on a bike, then I am more likely to make the decision to draft them, than if that person was wobbling along in the gutter.

Thats not to say of course that a judgment call is right or wrong in any given case, but it is one of the ways in which I determine whether or not I am riding safe

I'm sorry but that is a futile argument.

If that individual interpretation of the rules of the road was the case there would be people riding, driving around assuming their perspective/opinion was king. Its why we have a highway code and have to pass tests to legally drive. Understanding rules of the road, stopping and braking distances are easily transferable knowledge from motor powered vehicle to bikes etc.

Its bloody common sense that if you are right up against a persons tyre you are not going to have enough time to stop or evade if the cyclist infront should crash or stop suddenly. In rain or slippery common sense denotes that you give even more distance between you and the moving object infront. Its common sense that if you pass a vehicle or cyclist too close (as in close enough to knock into them) you could cause an accident. And if you want to argue the notion that 'my safe distance is different to yours?' We all instinctively have an understanding of spatial awareness, so much so if put in a small room there would be nearly an equal amount of distance between one person to the next - scientifically proven and again transfreable to cars and other such vehicles we have to be spatially aware in. You have to conciously get closer to someone. You have to conciously allow that person to get close.

Its bloody minded cyclist/motorists that think its all down to individual interpretation and not given, accepted, tried and tested rules taught all over the Country that make the road more dangerous that it has to be.

cee

But you counter your own argument.

You say in your previous reply that you overtake when you think it is safe to do so, and of course you do...it would be daft to overtake when you thought you would be mullered by an oncoming car!, but thats the point......YOU made the decision that it was safe and in no way could you ever guess that the overtakee thought the same.

and watching House does not constutite an understanding of spacial (*edit mis-spelled spacial.. sorry) awareness or our inherent abilities to give the same amount of space to another road user.

redddraggon

biondino wrote:

It's very straightforward to draft sensibly - stay 4 or 5 feet back and make sure you can see any road dangers as well as the dude in front can. And have a rear light.

4 or 5 feet is not drafting - it's too far away to be of real use.....

cee

redddraggon wrote:

biondino wrote:

It's very straightforward to draft sensibly - stay 4 or 5 feet back and make sure you can see any road dangers as well as the dude in front can. And have a rear light.

4 or 5 feet is not drafting - it's too far away to be of real use.....

and presumably with all our inherent spacial awareness it would always be the same figure...not four OR five feet.

DonDaddyD

cee wrote:

Just to make sure you got it the first time.....

cee wrote:

. AND I predict that your retort will be something along the lines of 'Yes but.....I do it safely/when theres little traffic/at a distance that I find comfortable etcetcetc.'

Sorry but its a crap argument. I only cycle on the pavement when I deem it safe. I only break the speed limit in the car when I demm it safe. I only ......etc.

that was my point.

But that is not the point we are discussing, you are just looking for an argument.

Firstly, what is wrong with overtaking? Overtaking, unlike riding on the pavement and breaking the lights, is a legal manoeuvre necessary for travelling on the road. That you disagree with this or have a problem is irrelevant to the point. It is legal the examples you've given aren't. Like all manoeuvres overtaking has to be carried out safely and sensibly.

Again, my point; overtaking and riding fast is the crux of SCR I cannot physically break the speed limit, there is no cycle speed limit on my commute so as long as I am on the road riding at speed (you are safest travelling at ambient traffic speeds by the way) and overtaking safely and sensible, giving signals as I do. I don't see where you can have a poblem with this. Except to want to have a problem to prove a point.

Drafting (which is what we a talking about) in a car and on a bike is dangerous. If you crash into the back of someone in a car because you couldn't brake in time it is the fault of the person who crashed and not the person who was crahsed into. This is because the rules of the road dictate that ample braking distance should be given between vehicles.

I am complaining about people who draft and don't give ample braking distance, those who sit on bumpers/tyres. With which you agree. But you are also complaining about overtaking (regardless of being carried out safely) and your opinion of what is safe and what isn't, this I feel has been answered.

Rich158

Agressive drafting is definately not on :evil: , but I have been known to draft on occasion, and don't mind other cyclists doing the same to me. The simple fact is that riding as part of a group or inded drafting can require up to 30% less effort, and if you're going to draft then it's only fair that you take your turn leading, which I always try to do. Others aren't always so courteous.

Before I get shot down in flames I hasten to add that I only ever do this to other roadies, who I am confident understand the dynamics of riding in a group, and you can usually tell this by how they ride.

cee

however presumably you had slowed right down as the traffic and road situation that you described in your OP would necessitate it right? And therefor the braking distance would be greatly reduced and perhaps that is why the chap/ess was so close to you?

I never said anywhere that I had a problem with overtaking/overtakers. I merely put the devils advocate mode on to point out that someone who writes so much about some game called silly commuter RACING, then goes on to complain so much about someone being a little close. jeeez.

biondino

redddraggon wrote:

biondino wrote:

It's very straightforward to draft sensibly - stay 4 or 5 feet back and make sure you can see any road dangers as well as the dude in front can. And have a rear light.

4 or 5 feet is not drafting - it's too far away to be of real use.....

This simply isn't true. It may only save you 1mph rather than 2 or 3 but I know from ample experience that it makes enough of a difference to be worthwhile, especially when you're tired. Try it!

DonDaddyD

and presumably with all our inherent spacial awareness it would always be the same figure...not four OR five feet.

See what I wrote below:

Me wrote:

We all instinctively have an understanding of spatial awareness, so much so if put in a small room there would be nearly an equal amount of distance between one person to the next

The word nearly is an indication of not exact amounts.

cee wrote:

But you counter your own argument.

You say in your previous reply that you overtake when you think it is safe to do so, and of course you do...it would be daft to overtake when you thought you would be mullered by an oncoming car!, but thats the point......YOU made the decision that it was safe and in no way could you ever guess that the overtakee thought the same.

On this we are going to agree to disagree.

Ultimately your interpretation of the term 'safe to do so is flawed'.

Safe to do so, means I make my move when it is safe as in it is safe for me and all other road users.

Roundabouts is an example: We give way to vehicles coming from the right. Even though there are vehicles coming from the right (following your logic) I feel that it is safe so I try to enter the roundabout. I cause an accident.

Similarly this time I approach the roundabout wait until it is clear from the right and I go. It was safe to do so. I do not cause an accident.

Safe to do so doesn't mean, I personally think it is safe (and if I've written this previously its wrong with more thought I mean the following). 'Safe to do so' means it is safe for me to progress as I am not a hazzard to any other road users and they are not a hazzard to me, in accordance to the rules of the road and highway code.

Following the above notion is how box junctions work, complex junctions, entering a main road, giveway lines, red lights etc. They are not there or are open for interpretation. They are there to make the road safe for all. Picking up on overtaking a completely legal move isn't a point really.

and watching House does not constutite an understanding of spacial (*edit mis-spelled spacial.. sorry) awareness or our inherent abilities to give the same amount of space to another road user.

I studied pyschology, have a degree in work psychology and work alongside doctors in an NHS Trust that operates within the boudaries of psychology and mental health. I cannot count how many times spatial awareness has come up from lssons, to lectures to training courses. So please keep your flippant insults to yourself.

Oh and I did see the example of spatial awareness in the ITV programme numbers or and read it in a Spider-Man book detailing his powers.

tailwindhome

DonDaddyD wrote:

read it in a Spider-Man book detailing his powers.

DDD first strike in the Battle for 2009 SCR of the Year


That'll take some beating!

DonDaddyD

cee wrote:

however presumably you had slowed right down as the traffic and road situation that you described in your OP would necessitate it right? And therefor the braking distance would be greatly reduced and perhaps that is why the chap/ess was so close to you?

There was no plausible reason for him to be that close to me for whatever reason. Its annoying, intimidating and aggressive. He had made himself a hazard to me.

I never said anywhere that I had a problem with overtaking/overtakers. I merely put the devils advocate mode on to point out that someone who writes so much about some game called silly commuter RACING, then goes on to complain so much about someone being a little close. jeeez.

I challenge you to find an instance when I have drafted or gotten too close to someone when SCRing.

The way you speak about SCR is as though you know what it is. Clearly you don't and your accusations almost imply a negative slant on it. I won't have it.

The whole notion of a a scalp, which is to overtake the person in front of you, is to do so safely and with skill whilst not being a threat to yourself or other road users. There is nothing wrong with overtaking someone (i.e. SCRing) and then mainting the blistering speed (which isn't in breach of any speed limit as none have been applied to bicycles on the main road) in a safe manner. So no, on the whole devils advocate thing, I don't take your point.

biondino

Calm down, DDD, we're all friends here.

cee

DonDaddyD wrote:

cee wrote:

however presumably you had slowed right down as the traffic and road situation that you described in your OP would necessitate it right? And therefor the braking distance would be greatly reduced and perhaps that is why the chap/ess was so close to you?

There was no plausible reason for him to be that close to me for whatever reason. Its annoying, intimidating and aggressive. He had made himself a hazard to me.

I never said anywhere that I had a problem with overtaking/overtakers. I merely put the devils advocate mode on to point out that someone who writes so much about some game called silly commuter RACING, then goes on to complain so much about someone being a little close. jeeez.

I challenge you to find an instance when I have drafted or gotten too close to someone when SCRing.

The way you speak about SCR is as though you know what it is. Clearly you don't and your accusations almost imply a negative slant on it. I won't have it.

The whole notion of a a scalp, which is to overtake the person in front of you, is to do so safely and with skill whilst not being a threat to yourself or other road users. There is nothing wrong with overtaking someone (i.e. SCRing) and then mainting the blistering speed (which isn't in breach of any speed limit as none have been applied to bicycles on the main road) in a safe manner. So no, on the whole devils advocate thing, I don't take your point.

Erm....... It is clearly not possible to look back through time and revisit every journey you have ever made on a bike (which I assume is a large number of journeys) to find an instance where you have drafted or gotten too close to someone, so your challenge is not only empty, but also childish and in fact impossible. Apart from the fact that if you are 1 inch, 1 foot or 6 feet behind someone, you may never know how comfortable the person in front was with that manouvre.

What I will say is that in no way, not ever, can you, even in YOUR definition, 'scalp' someone and know for a fact that your doing so will not spook them and cause an accident, or make them feel uncomfortable, no matter how careful you THINK you are being. Unless of course you are David Eick, in which case, a horde of blondes in purple jump suits are following, all bets are off, and this conversation becomes even more pointless. My last point is that the speed limit is not a good indicator of what is safe, the IAM promotes driving to the conditions and not the speed limit.....that was in fact my point.

Anyway, the drafter has clearly upset you and my well smilied comment (to which I am entitled with or without you 'having it') has obviously missed its mark......

Maybe you should have posted it in the rants after all, as you clearly have no intention of 'having' any view point other than your own added to the thread.

DonDaddyD

Ok firstly yeah I'm pissed about the two A-holes that drafted me.

They were right up on me for no good reason. It was last night, the roads were greasy, the cars were everwhere and visibility... well it was freaking night. There is no good reason for a guy to tuck in behind me that close. My point is that you wouldn't do it in a motorised vehicle and the main road (with cars, lorries, buses, pedstrians, pot holes, lights etc) isn't the place to do it. At 15-20mph in a virtually deadwind I'm not going fast enough for a draft to make much different and if I fall over (the person behind is going right over the top of me - making them a hazard to me).

But I want to clarify before we begin:

We agree on drafting being dangerous (in situations)

We disagree on the overtaking.

I'm riding along the road at 17/20mph (as I do) I come across a person pushing 8mph maybe 12mph when the road dips slightly. I actually find it harder to pootle at these speeds than to ride at my amibient 17/20mph. I overtake. There is nothing wrong in doing so, if done sensibly and giving the cyclist enough room

cee wrote:

Erm....... It is clearly not possible to look back through time and revisit every journey you have ever made on a bike (which I assume is a large number of journeys) to find an instance where you have drafted or gotten too close to someone, so your challenge is not only empty, but also childish and in fact impossible. Apart from the fact that if you are 1 inch, 1 foot or 6 feet behind someone, you may never know how comfortable the person in front was with that manouvre.

Firstly it is possible to read through the SCR thread and read my posts there. But in the event that this is an unlikely action on your part I shall rest upon the this.

To assume that I am or have been unsafe as to impose my on fun on my bike at the expense of another cyclist is judgemental and frankly rude.

Despite its name 'Silly Commuter Racing', despite the term scalp. My first and main rule is to obey the rules of the road and ride safely.

The comment 'childish' I find astonishing given your previous remarks intended to ridicule.

What I will say is that in no way, not ever, can you, even in YOUR definition, 'scalp' someone and know for a fact that your doing so will not spook them and cause an accident, or make them feel uncomfortable, no matter how careful you THINK you are being.

To say that given my explanation of how I overtake (affectionately referred to as a scalp) is to claim that any, every and all cyclists when overtaking (including yourself) cannot know that their actions will not spook another cyclist into causing an accident or make them feel uncomfortable no matter how careful they have been.

Hmmm.... with more reflection on the above perhaps this is the case but there will always be variables that cannot be measured such as human emotion given a situation. All a cyclist/road user can do is follow the accepted rules of the road and understand that his actions as best he can does not turn him, or other road users into a hazard.

Unless of course you are David Eick, in which case, a horde of blondes in purple jump suits are following, all bets are off, and this conversation becomes even more pointless.

Who is David Eick?

My last point is that the speed limit is not a good indicator of what is safe, the IAM promotes driving to the conditions and not the speed limit.....that was in fact my point.

You know what, I agree. I will always be an adovcate of this fact. I ride and drive to the conditions. I don't see how this relates to a person drafting me an inch (or less) off my back wheel as any motorist or road user will tell you, this is dangerous.

Anyway, next person to draft me like a pr*ck is gonna get an ear full of angry swear words.