Red-light jumper blackens my name!

gtvlusso

Eat My Dust wrote:

gtvlusso wrote:

I don't wanna stop - I want to be in the zone where I am working like a bad m*therf*cker and building more fitness and strength (I have to if I am going to compete in an Ironman next summer!)

I may be a dick

Just to point out that your training for an ironman would probably benefit from you stopping at the reds.

Sorry fella, you missed something off your quote:

I may be a dick, but your a pussy....we all know that dicks f*ck pussies.....Team America?!

Happy Christmas.

Right - off home, have a good weekend all.

BoardinBob

gtvlusso wrote:

but I have commuted in London and various other cities around the world....

Any chance of an autograph? A signed picture would be GREAT!

gtvlusso

Sure - who should I make it out to?

tailwindhome

gtvlusso wrote:

Sure - who should I make it out to?

You got home quick

Some tailwind

gtvlusso

Still fecking here - always something last minute. Have to be home before 5 for Dawg....and kids, but mostly dawg.

simple_salmon

Have a nice weekend.

Eat My Dust

gtvlusso wrote:

Sorry fella, you missed something off your quote:

I may be a dick

I'm pretty sure it was all there!

rhext

Eat My Dust wrote:

gtvlusso wrote:

Sorry fella, you missed something off your quote:

I may be a dick

I'm pretty sure it was all there!

I think the important bit was

glebrus

el_presidente wrote:

By jumping the red light you are saying to every other road user "I do not believe these rules apply to me". This cannot be construed as anything other than a selfish and rude attitude.

If you can justify that to yourself then that is your business. But imho there are too many selfish and rude people in all walks of life and not least on the roads. I am by no means perfect but I do try to behave on the roads in a responsible manner.

First, I was glad to see that some other people also take practical approach to red lights and rules. I take lights same as gtvlusso (don't stop at empty redlighted ped crossing, don't stop at traffic crossing when there is no vehicle to give way to, don't stop at T-junctions, make "legal right turns" which are not legal where I live). I treat red light as the 'give way' sign, and I believe it is a realistic way to commute. You need to get from A to B safe and fast. You use bicycle and your body energy to do it, it would be very impractical to stop where there is no need to stop. (then accelerate and breathe motor exhaust). And it may be safer to cross an empty crossing alone at red than doing so amidst a crowd of accelerating turning and manoevring cars.

Second. There are two lines of argument. One is whether the same law applies to all, as quoted above.
No, I don't feel that law should apply to me absolutely. The bicycle is a very different vehicle, re speed, ability to manoevre, mass, energy, response. Cyclists would have special rules on the road in an ideal world. It's just a matter of time. The fact that some rules are not enforced against cyclists works to that end. Some rules that make sense for motor vehicles do not make sense for cyclists.

Traffic law wasn't made for cyclists. It does not apply absolutely.


The second line of argument is that, some people propose that cyclists ride as they are ambassadors for all cyclists. I don't mind to act as an ambassador if I get decent remuneration ))). Until then, getting from A to B safely and efficiently is my primary concern, and I have a lot of important things to worry about while on the road, rather than the ambassador responsibilities or what drivers would think of cyclists in general. My main business is not to get killed the next second. Forget that ambassador thing.

And again, not creating dangerous situations, riding in helmet, lights on the bike, looking back and hand-signalling before maneuvres, reasonable riding in general, is much more important than obeying some red lights that don't make sense, both for one's personal safety and for winning motorists' respect. Everyone wants to go fast and get somewhere, and nobody wants problems or accidents on the way.

Re people who hate cyclists, they just look at them as impediments rather than human road users, adherence to the traffic law can't change that. Bicycle is slow and poorly visible. Therefore a cyclist is generally perceived as danger by motorists. Get proper lights at night, make yourself visible and make signals, then do what you want, drivers will be happy to give you way to get clear from them. That's my experience.

always_tyred

See, the mistake you both make is assuming that all the good/bad adds up, so if you are good in lots of ways, you are "allowed" to be a tool in other ways.

What people are trying to explain to you (albeit in relation to the UK and not Minsk) is that when you cycle well (almost) no one notices, whereas when you bomb through a red light - safely obviously - every one of the drivers in their cars think you are a tw@t - which obviously you aren't - and would enjoy seeing you have an accident. In leiu of enjoying seeing you have an accident, seeing ME have an accident would suffice.

gtv - you go on about Narnia - only in Narnia would motorists take accound of how great you are in other respects and thereby understand and refrain from anger when they see you bombing through a red light -safely obviously.

Here in Noddy Toy Land, when a motorist is possed iff about watching you do this, they give the next 10 cyclists they pass about 3 feet less room.

And glebrus - I hav a solution for you - set your alarm 3 minutes earlier. That way you will be able to stop at all the red lights and still arrive at work a minute earlier!

AndyManc

el_presidente wrote:

By jumping the red light you are saying to every other road user "I do not believe these rules apply to me". This cannot be construed as anything other than a selfish and rude attitude.

And the fact that 99% of motorists exceed the speed limit all the time on our roads what does it say about them ?

Car owners hate cyclists, RLJ'ers do not change that fact at all.

always_tyred

AndyManc wrote:

el_presidente wrote:

By jumping the red light you are saying to every other road user "I do not believe these rules apply to me". This cannot be construed as anything other than a selfish and rude attitude.

And the fact that 99% of motorists exceed the speed limit all the time on our roads what does it say about them ?

Car owners hate cyclists, RLJ'ers do not change that fact at all.

No, but they make it worse.
The thing is, when I see a speeding motorist, I can't catch up with them and pass them very closely and thereby place their life at risk.

Actually, I don't think "most car owners hate cyclists" at all, nor do I think "99% of people speed" - not up here anyway. But, just as we blame motorists for remembering only Gtv's antics, we as cyclists appear to recall only the one or two cars during the morning commute who do something dick. What about the 100 other drivers who passed, or were passed, perfectly innocuously?

AndyManc

Always Tyred wrote:

Actually, I don't think "most car owners hate cyclists" at all, nor do I think "99% of people speed" -

It's a sizable number of car owners , whether it's the majority is debatable.

I own a car, I did a little experiment , driving at 29mph (in a 30mph zone).

Every car on the road overtook me, people were blasting their horn , flashing their lights,everyone speeds.

In fact there was a programme on TV a few years ago where a handful of drivers spoke of their experiences when they tried to adhere to speed limits .

They received abuse , physical attacks and even death threats.

Those motorists that are angered by the antics of cycle RLJ'ers will often be equally incompetent and reckless.

I RLJ at 5am, along with the majority of cars on the road at that time.

The only reason why motorists hate RLJ'ers is because they cant get away with doing the same thing .

always_tyred

AndyManc wrote:

Always Tyred wrote:

Actually, I don't think "most car owners hate cyclists" at all, nor do I think "99% of people speed" -

It's a sizable number of car owners , whether it's the majority is debatable.

I own a car, I did a little experiment , driving at 29mph (in a 30mph zone).

Every car on the road overtook me, people were blasting their horn , flashing their lights,everyone speeds.

In fact there was a programme on TV a few years ago where a handful of drivers spoke of their experiences when they tried to adhere to speed limits .

They received abuse , physical attacks and even death threats.

Those motorists that are angered by the antics of cycle RLJ'ers will often be equally incompetent and reckless.

I RLJ at 5am, along with the majority of cars on the road at that time.

The only reason why motorists hate RLJ'ers is because they cant get away with doing the same thing .

Yes, you've pretty much nailed it. I agree that most motorists grind their teeth when they are stationary and anyone else isn't.

You definitely don't work for www.visitmanchester.com do you?

One of the freaky things about Scottish driving is that people tend to drive approximately at the speed limit. Okay, they make up for it on lethal highland A-roads, but I regularly pootle up the M9 at about 65 overtaking people. Its bizzare.

glebrus

Always Tyred wrote:

See, the mistake you both make is assuming that all the good/bad adds up, so if you are good in lots of ways, you are "allowed" to be a tool in other ways.

You're too idealistic about it, it seems. In practical terms, nobody cares about good and bad adding or not, it is all about not having an accident my presious self, today, before I reach my destination, be it a bicycle commute or car commute.

Always Tyred wrote:

What people are trying to explain to you (albeit in relation to the UK and not Minsk) is that when you cycle well (almost) no one notices, whereas when you bomb through a red light - safely obviously - every one of the drivers in their cars think you are a tw@t - which obviously you aren't - and would enjoy seeing you have an accident. In leiu of enjoying seeing you have an accident, seeing ME have an accident would suffice.

gtv - you go on about Narnia - only in Narnia would motorists take accound of how great you are in other respects and thereby understand and refrain from anger when they see you bombing through a red light -safely obviously.

Here in Noddy Toy Land, when a motorist is possed iff about watching you do this, they give the next 10 cyclists they pass about 3 feet less room.

Reasonable motorists will give a cyclist 3 feet or as much as they can, primarily because they do not want to have an accident with the cyclist, even the smallest one, no matter how much they love or hate cyclists. In my country, you have a huge problem if you kill or injure someone on the road, regardless of whether you are guilty or innocent actually. Most drivers know it, and nobody wants it. Some people just lack driving experience or brains, it is a percentage.

In fact, I take it as a compliment if a driver passes close to me -- as they believe, from by previous signalling and motions, that I'm not totally stupid and will not wiggle left or right without looking back and giving signals first.

And when I RLJ safely in front of a crowd of waiting motorists, with all my lights, all of them become more aware of the presence of crazy cyclists on the road, and that actually improves my riding safety. They will look out better if there is any cyclist around, drive cautiously, and give more space if there is one.

(That the motorist's eye/brain is not trained to see and identify a cyclist and react properly is a much bigger problem than RLJing or motorists hating cyclists, IMHO)

Always Tyred wrote:

And glebrus - I hav a solution for you - set your alarm 3 minutes earlier. That way you will be able to stop at all the red lights and still arrive at work a minute earlier!

Being late is not my concern, thank you. Two arguments for safe RLJing, (1) it is less safe to start and accelerate together with motor vehicles at the light change, as this is the time when they show each other who's got better engines :evil:, I don't want to be a part of the scene then;
(2) air is quite toxic in a group of accelerating motors. I would rather avoid being there at all :evil: :evil: My safety and my health are very important to me, I beg your pardon.

alfablue

glebrus wrote:

In fact, I take it as a compliment if a driver passes close to me

What a beautiful world you live in, what planet is that exactly?

BoardinBob

So by your rationale, because cyclists are in danger in heavy traffic due to their size etc, should people in small cars be allowed to RLJ? After all, there may be bigger cars or trucks on the road that could bash them out the way or want to overtake them or might not see them.

Better still, how about we let nervous drivers RLJ to get a bit of a head start. After all, they could be quite intimidated driving in heavy traffic.

:roll:

glebrus

BoardinBob wrote:

So by your rationale, because cyclists are in danger in heavy traffic due to their size etc, should people in small cars be allowed to RLJ? After all, there may be bigger cars or trucks on the road that could bash them out the way or want to overtake them or might not see them.

Better still, how about we let nervous drivers RLJ to get a bit of a head start. After all, they could be quite intimidated driving in heavy traffic.

:roll:

Do you think they refrain from doing so on moral grounds? We have road police to look after that. I will stop RLJ-ing if the road police starts enforcing it on me.

Seriously, I believe that the bicycle is a very different vehicle from even the smallest car, in terms of response, manoevrability, mass, energy, and inertia. And in terms of physical damage in the event of accident. Cyclists should have special traffic rules for them, different from motorized vehicles. And we'll have it if cycling becomes massive. As far as now, we have different attitude by road police, they just turn the blind eye, or give you a comment. It is essentially correct. RLJ-ing by cyclists is not dangerous (as far as they give way properly).

gtvlusso

So, in conclusion then.

Some people won't RLJ, but will object to anyone else doing it. And some people will RLJ and don't really give a frig what the objectors think and will continue to do it.

Same as the last debate about RLJ I think.

*I think some of you take this way too seriously*

glebrus

gtvlusso wrote:

Some people won't RLJ, but will object to anyone else doing it. And some people will RLJ and don't really give a frig what the objectors think and will continue to do it.

way too seriously*

you forgot minority groups
Some people won't RLJ and don't really care if other RLJ.
Some people always RLJ a a matter of principle and insist that everyone should RLJ!
Cars should be phased out and eventually forbidden! Patria or muerte! No pasaran!

biondino

Aha, the favourite internet gambit of "omg lol you losers take stuff way too seriously lol". Nah mate, doesn't work.

Car owners hate cyclists, RLJ'ers do not change that fact at all.

In a thread full of ambiguous and morally grey rhetoric, this is THE most dumb, wrong, pig-headed comment of the lot. RLJing (in whatever circumstances, "safe" or otherwise) is by a country mile the most visible and explicitly illegal annoyance committed by cyclists which car drivers watch, ingest and feel their loathing grow every time they see it.

AndyManc

biondino wrote:

, ingest and feel their loathing grow every time they see it.

First of all who gives a f*** what car drivers think , RLJ'ing might manifest a visible reaction from motorists but they already hold a deep ingrained loathing of anyone on the road whom they perceive is either 'not paying their way' or in most cases 'getting in their way'.

Those motorists that act adversely to the practice of RLJ have serious issues of their own, and anyone of them that attempts to seek retribution against cycling or individual cyclists is patently not fit to be behind a killing machine.

always_tyred

gtvlusso wrote:

So, in conclusion then.

Some people won't RLJ, but will object to anyone else doing it. And some people will RLJ and don't really give a frig what the objectors think and will continue to do it.

Same as the last debate about RLJ I think.

*I think some of you take this way too seriously*

Why do you keep reading it and posting on the thread then?

always_tyred

glebrus wrote:

In fact, I take it as a compliment if a driver passes close to me

Are you delighted if they knock you off then, or would that be a silly extension of monstorously stupid reverse logic?

glebrus

Always Tyred wrote:

glebrus wrote:

In fact, I take it as a compliment if a driver passes close to me

Are you delighted if they knock you off then, or would that be a silly extension of monstorously stupid reverse logic?

Maybe I just put it wrong, it was a reference to my recent 'incident' when I was scared by a taxi passin real close to me to squeese between me and something else; but it was professional on the other hand, not because he hated me but because he wanted to get through and believed that I go straight and not shift into his line of motion. I wasn't pleased at all, told him strong words in my mind, but he acted professionally.
He just assumed that I go straight, and he had valid grounds to assume it. He didn't knock me off, didn't even touch me so I have no claims against him.

There is danger on the road, motorists risk damaging their vehicles, cyclists risk their health and life. That's a fact.

Now your logic is perverted too; if you choose to ride on the road, and traffic law equally applies, then something that is not too close for a car should not be too close for a cyclist, until you have managed to get special traffic rules for cyclists. If he breaks your mirror or scrathes paint on your side, that's too close. If you're dead on your bicycle after that, that's your problem, go get better vehicle. You demand special treatment by asking 3 feet distance on the road. I demand special treatment for RLJing.

We have similar logic, don't we?

And through my 'perverted' logic, I believe that I insist on broad special treatment by publicly helping myself to one particular special treatment, RLJ. As if shouting, "I'm not a car, I'm a crazy cyclist, beware of me on the road, don't go the lane I took, better stop and wait. I'm a crazy cyclist, a fact of your motoring life".

I feel extremely unsafe on the road. I have no respect for traffic rules that make me feel so unsafe. I will obey traffic rules as much as it improves my safety. I will also break traffic rules as soon as it improves my safety. Visibility is safety for the cyclist. RLJ ing makes me very visible, among other things. Now go witchhunt me.

glebrus

biondino wrote:

Aha, the favourite internet gambit of "omg lol you losers take stuff way too seriously lol". Nah mate, doesn't work.

I never ment that. However, each one of us will ride as he believes is best, after reading and exhanging opinions. So, there is no need to really fight the opponent.

biondino wrote:

Car owners hate cyclists, RLJ'ers do not change that fact at all.

In a thread full of ambiguous and morally grey rhetoric, this is THE most dumb, wrong, pig-headed comment of the lot. RLJing (in whatever circumstances, "safe" or otherwise) is by a country mile the most visible and explicitly illegal annoyance committed by cyclists which car drivers watch, ingest and feel their loathing grow every time they see it.

Maybe not hate, not all of them, but are extremely annoyed by their very existense, however legal it may be. I believe it too. There is bicycle manufacturer STELS in Russia, motorists call them STEALTH riders, guess why.

Bikerbaboon

glebrus wrote:

Always Tyred wrote:

glebrus wrote:

In fact, I take it as a compliment if a driver passes close to me

Are you delighted if they knock you off then, or would that be a silly extension of monstorously stupid reverse logic?

Maybe I just put it wrong, it was a reference to my recent 'incident' when I was scared by a taxi passin real close to me to squeese between me and something else; but it was professional on the other hand, not because he hated me but because he wanted to get through and believed that I go straight and not shift into his line of motion. I wasn't pleased at all, told him strong words in my mind, but he acted professionally.
He just assumed that I go straight, and he had valid grounds to assume it. He didn't knock me off, didn't even touch me so I have no claims against him.

There is danger on the road, motorists risk damaging their vehicles, cyclists risk their health and life. That's a fact.

Now your logic is perverted too; if you choose to ride on the road, and traffic law equally applies, then something that is not too close for a car should not be too close for a cyclist, until you have managed to get special traffic rules for cyclists. If he breaks your mirror or scrathes paint on your side, that's too close. If you're dead on your bicycle after that, that's your problem, go get better vehicle. You demand special treatment by asking 3 feet distance on the road. I demand special treatment for RLJing.

We have similar logic, don't we?

And through my 'perverted' logic, I believe that I insist on broad special treatment by publicly helping myself to one particular special treatment, RLJ. As if shouting, "I'm not a car, I'm a crazy cyclist, beware of me on the road, don't go the lane I took, better stop and wait. I'm a crazy cyclist, a fact of your motoring life".

I feel extremely unsafe on the road. I have no respect for traffic rules that make me feel so unsafe. I will obey traffic rules as much as it improves my safety. I will also break traffic rules as soon as it improves my safety. Visibility is safety for the cyclist. RLJ ing makes me very visible, among other things. Now go witchhunt me.

The problem is that the taxi driver was not acting with in the ghway code. you have to treat a bike as 6' wide. 3' out from the curb and then 3' for wiggle room to move round pot holes and manhole covers.

use that as a reason that you want to be see to RLJ is just wrong. When you redlight jump you are decreasing you visibility to the flow of trafic that you are going in to people dont expect you to be there so are not looking for you. Its not following the same logic at all. If you red light jump and get ploughed in to by a 40 tone lorry doing 30 mph think of the poor driver thats going to have to spendthe rest of his life thinking about that he hit you. If you want better visibility get a high vis jacket, dont ride like a cock.

glebrus

Bikerbaboon wrote:

you have to treat a bike as 6' wide. 3' out from the curb and then 3' for wiggle room

News to me, we don't have it in the national traffic code (Belarus). Good for you to have it. However it does not break my argument about the need for special treatment.

Re RLJ, there is a conflict between practicality and respect for the law, obviously. Then, it is up to an individual, because enforcement is virtually impossible.

Bikerbaboon wrote:

If you red light jump and get ploughed in to by a 40 tone lorry doing 30 mph think of the poor driver thats going to have to spendthe rest of his life thinking about that he hit you.
If you want better visibility get a high vis jacket, dont ride like a fool.

such things are out of discussion, it is implied that I look out throughly and give way, as if I was under the give way sign. You see me responding, still alive, I don't ride like a fool then. I just defend the practical way against the law-abiding way which is less safe. I take my safety in my own hands rather than trusting all road users to be careful and law-abiding. They are not, some of them. And it's my only life, not a computer game here.

Beeblebrox

Many cyclists are motorists, and when I'm driving and see somebody RLJ I just think it's irresponsible. Although if the lights are red for the 'green man' then that is certainly a mitigating factor in favour of the cyclist.

There is a place for going as fast as efficiently as possible - it is not usually through the centre of a town with many traffic lights and traffic. In that situation both cyclists and drivers both want to get somewhere as fast as possible as safely as they can. Respect from both parties is what is needed and RLJing is disregarding the rules that everyone should be following for everyone else's' safety.

tailwindhome

gtvlusso wrote:

So, in conclusion then.

You wish