Cheapest way to train reliably with power.

fuzzynavel

Hello all,

what is the cheapest way to train with power. I am not talking about bike mounted systems such as SRM's, Powertap's, Ergomo's...or even the polar chain vibration version.

I can't really afford any of them so my best option is to get a turbo trainer.
I have looked at a lot of trainers and have seen good reviews about the kurt kinetic but I am not sure how accurate the power measurement is if you buy the optional computer....Anybody have any experience of this setup?
By the time you have bought the kurt kinetic and computer you are heading for mid range Tacx flow territory and they offer power measurement. To be honest I am leaning towards Tacx flow http://www.bikeradar.com/gear/category/accessories/resistance-trainer/product/flow-9439 but I would like to possibly consider stretching to the I-magic if funds permit. Is there any real competition in this price range £200 -£400 that will offer (close to) real time power measurement and possibly computer analysis of results at a later time?

Infamous

You could rent a power meter.

liversedge

I started on a tacx flow and it was ok. it is consistent and easy to use. the numbers were flattering, but that only matters when comparing to other peoples numbers and doesn't affect your actual performance. my gripe was at higher cadences (95, 100, 110) the unit got more and more flattering which skewed ftp tests for me.

download to pc was not possible without the imagic but I suspect you already know that.

bahzob

Afraid Kurt Kinetic, while a good solid turbo, is not very reliable in terms of power (I've got one plus Powertap. The KK reading vary wildly from reality in no consistent way.)

If majority of training is turbo work I would suggest renting a powermeter and using it for a couple of purposes:
- carrying out a reliable FTP test that will let you set up your training zones/keep a record of what HR/speed/RPE you achieved.
- do a few of the bread and butter power drills and use them to calibrate your turbo/bike computer so you know what speed/HR/RPE correspond to the various zones.

Once you have done this you can send the powermeter back and train on speed/HR/RPE. This is especially the case at this time of year when effort is sub-threshold and intervals are of long duration. (But not easy, one benefit of a powermeter is showing you how hard a "long steady" ride should be especially in terms of keeping effort up even on the easy bits. So if you rent one be sure to go out for a long ride with it and try to hit the mid to upper portion of the endurance zone wattage. You may be surprised how tough this feels and it will be a good reference even if you ride without one in future)..

Alex_Simmons/RST

Used Powertap?

I am not endorsing this but post simply as an example:
http://www.timetriallingforum.co.uk/ind ... =26807&hl=

Alex_Simmons/RST

bahzob wrote:

one benefit of a powermeter is showing you how hard a "long steady" ride should be especially in terms of keeping effort up even on the easy bits. So if you rent one be sure to go out for a long ride with it and try to hit the mid to upper portion of the endurance zone wattage. You may be surprised how tough this feels and it will be a good reference even if you ride without one in future)..

You bet. many realise for the first time how slack a lot of their rides actually are.

It also shows up most groups rides for what they are, mostly a bludge and crummy training.

mclarent

alright, now I really want a powertap...

inseine

If you want a really cheap method just get a computer running of the rear wheel and train to speed. Appart from a bit of loosen up due to heat a constant speed at a given resistance should be at the same power. It's better than a HRM alone beacuse you get drift and also you tend to start of too fast (especially with 2x20 for example) because you are trying to hit a given heart rate.
I monitored by fitness gain (or not!) using this method last year and found it much better than heart rate alone. It's surprising how much harder the end of the second 2x20 is when you are targetting a speed (or power) than HR.

fuzzynavel

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

Used Powertap?

I am not endorsing this but post simply as an example:
http://www.timetriallingforum.co.uk/ind ... =26807&hl=

cheers Alex. I guess for this money I could get the used powertap and a low end turbo (to give indoor resistance only)for about £400.00

Also many thanks to everyone else who has helped here today.

fuzzynavel

bahzob wrote:

, one benefit of a powermeter is showing you how hard a "long steady" ride should be especially in terms of keeping effort up even on the easy bits. So if you rent one be sure to go out for a long ride with it and try to hit the mid to upper portion of the endurance zone wattage. You may be surprised how tough this feels and it will be a good reference even if you ride without one in future)..

This is exactly what I want to do. I know I relax sometimes when the going gets a little harder but having a power goal in front of me should serve as some sort of motivation to push a little harder.
I think I may go with the idea of renting one for a few months and see how it goes. I have my eye on a Garmin edge 705 which should work nicely with the powertap.

BeaconRuth

Never lose sight of the fact that many many VERY good cyclists have never used a powermeter or even used a powermeter on a turbo trainer.

You don't fatten a pig by weighing it.

Ruth

DaveyL

But it can help you work out if you're feeding it too much or too little...

liversedge

Don't lose sight that almost EVERY elite cyclist is using a powermeter.

Progress is change.

fuzzynavel

BeaconRuth wrote:

Never lose sight of the fact that many many VERY good cyclists have never used a powermeter or even used a powermeter on a turbo trainer.

You don't fatten a pig by weighing it.

Ruth

Very true but I don't think I can justify a personal trainer so I need to provide my own motivation and structure. I am a good cyclist but the motivation is the killer. I can get out 3 times during the week in the evening and once at the weekend and push hard but I get to a threshold where I give up and take it easy for a while. I figure that if I have a real time measurement showing low wattages and basically shouting "stop being weak" then I will force myself to endure more pain/discomfort than I normally would and what doesn't kill me should make me stronger cyclist. I have a target in mind...I want to do nearly 60 miles in a decent time (sub 3 hours) next summer. I am quite fit already and can do the 50 miles in 2 hours 45 but need to lose 2 stone in weight whilst improving my power output.
According to the gym bikes at the moment I am putting out about 3.0 Watts/kg( allowing for a 20% error in the gym equipment). If I lose 2 stone then I am already up to 3.8 Watts/Kg without any improvement in my peak power. I doubt I have much natural ability especially as I am 30 in January but I would like to see if I can stick with some cat 4's during a race next year.

bahzob

I'd caution about expecting too much from a power meter. Heaven knows I'm a convert, most every ride I do gets logged and downloaded into WKO.

However:
- my most rapid progress in terms of cycling was pre-powermeter. I had a route similar to the one you describe and my training was simply a question of training, riding it, training it, riding it with aim of getting faster each ride. I moved onto a powermeter only when I felt I had started to exhaust that approach.
- I'm not sure a powermeter will help you push yourself harder. It may give you a bit of an insight into why things hurt but not exceed them. display. It may also help you pace yourself and train more smartly.
- to get the most out of a power meter you need to go the whole hog and use one full time + buy WKO+. If you cant afford this then I would be concerned it may just be a distraction. I would be more inclined in your position to focus on a speed goal if this is your motivator. As a personal experience, despite all my use of power meters my best FTP was set when my main goal was to ride 25 miles under an hour. On that ride I used my power meter just to stop me riding too hard in the first 20 minutes. After that it was just a question of forgetting power keeping the speedo above 25mph as much as possible until the finish.

chrisw12

If motivation is the problem then getting a powermeter might actually make the problem worse, like if you dont know what you're doing you may set targets which you'll have difficulty meeting.

If you dont mind me saying so your targets are a but vague and un-ambitious eg.'...I am 30 in January but I would like to see if I can stick with some cat 4's during a race next year.'

Come on as a 30 year old, dont you think that ultimately you could aim for a bit more than that?

If weight/motivation is a problem and you want to race then why not have a go at timetrialling instead?

fuzzynavel

chrisw12 wrote:

If motivation is the problem then getting a powermeter might actually make the problem worse, like if you dont know what you're doing you may set targets which you'll have difficulty meeting.

If you dont mind me saying so your targets are a but vague and un-ambitious eg.'...I am 30 in January but I would like to see if I can stick with some cat 4's during a race next year.'

Come on as a 30 year old, dont you think that ultimately you could aim for a bit more than that?

If weight/motivation is a problem and you want to race then why not have a go at timetrialling instead?

The reason my cat 4 thing is a bit vague is that I really don't know how good you have to be to be decent in cat 4. How about if I said I was going to start racing next season and aim to make it to Cat 3 in 2 years....would that be better?
I am all for being ambitious but there has to be a limit where no amount of ambition is going to be enough. I just don't know where this limit will be.
Please bear in mind that I have only really been trying to train myself since July when I was thinking about buying a road bike.

Bahzob....I like the idea of trainig with power. I was trying to train with power in my local gym and was setting average power targets for the same course and trying to beat the average power output over an hour. It was pointed out to me that the bikes in there are probably about 10-20% out in terms of accuracy. I started pushing not much over 200 watts for the hour (corrected for 20%) and now I am around 300 watts for the hour
in the space of a few months (also corrected 20%).
My usual training regime consists of 3 x 20 mile timed runs in the evenings during the week. Each one of these rides includes 4 x laps of a local hill with an average incline of about 7% over 1km.
My weekend run is usually a club run over 40 -50 miles....pace varies depending on the group that I go out with.
I have read a lot of info regarding training with power thanks to Alex Simmons pointing me in the right direction on more than one occasion.
If I was going to get into power training then I would definately shell out for WKO...I have read a lot of good things about it in various online forums.

liversedge

"with an average incline of about 7% over 1km"

where is that?

fuzzynavel

liversedge wrote:

"with an average incline of about 7% over 1km"

where is that?

Arthurs seat in Edinburgh!

http://www.arthursseatchallenge.co.uk/details.htm


Gradient is 114 - 38 = 76metres. This is the total climb
Total distance is 1.2km so gradient is 76 / 1200 = 6.3%

according to the website above "the incline on this ride averages 1 in 15 with a short section at 1 in 9."

liversedge

nice, great for intervals!

fuzzynavel

liversedge wrote:

nice, great for intervals!

I know. I usually do between 3 and 5 laps of the hill as part of my 3 times per week timed sessions. It is a bit of a slog towards the end but it means I have a good turn of speed when I need it (want it) during club runs.
The only problem with this is that it is outside and Edinburgh winters can get very cold/wet and I only have one bike that I am trying to look after (although it has been in a crash already).
This is the main idea behind getting a power measuring device whether it is a powertap and basic turbo or a tacx imagic. I want to be able to stay indoors and know that I am putting in enough effort to mimic a decent hill climb. All I have to do is convince the wife that we need a second shed to put the trainer in!!

steve2021

+1 for renting a powermeter. I rented one from cyclepowermeters.com. You dont have to keep it long if it turns out not be for you. If you decide to buy one, they will deduct some of your rental payments from the cost. They are really helpful.

fuzzynavel

steve2021 wrote:

+1 for renting a powermeter. I rented one from cyclepowermeters.com. You dont have to keep it long if it turns out not be for you. If you decide to buy one, they will deduct some of your rental payments from the cost. They are really helpful.

Thanks. It may be worth talking to them if there is a chance that they may offer a small discount on a purchase after renting from them.

liversedge

just did it myself. rented a powertap for a year and just ordered SRM cranks. Bob is highly knowledgeable, helpful and the service is quick and efficient.

fuzzynavel

liversedge wrote:

just did it myself. rented a powertap for a year and just ordered SRM cranks. Bob is highly knowledgeable, helpful and the service is quick and efficient.

Won't be doing it in November but may think about it for December. I have to decide whether I am going to be able to get the use out of it to justify the rental. The weather hasn't stopped me yet....but my current chest infection didn't like it when I went out on Monday...was coughing for an hour after getting home. may take a few rest days until the club run on Saturday and let the Anti-Biotics work.
I have just bought "training and racing with power" by Hunter Allen and Andrew Coggan so that I can read up on the use of power while I decide what to do about the equipment needed!

fuzzynavel

liversedge wrote:

just did it myself. rented a powertap for a year and just ordered SRM cranks. Bob is highly knowledgeable, helpful and the service is quick and efficient.

If you don't mind me asking....why did you rent a powertap for a year and then spend your cash on SRM cranks.....Something wrong with the powertap?

Alex_Simmons/RST

fuzzynavel wrote:

liversedge wrote:

just did it myself. rented a powertap for a year and just ordered SRM cranks. Bob is highly knowledgeable, helpful and the service is quick and efficient.

If you don't mind me asking....why did you rent a powertap for a year and then spend your cash on SRM cranks.....Something wrong with the powertap?

There's nothing wrong with eirther. It's just they have some different operational features/set ups that mean one is sometimes more suitable for some riders than the other.

I use both.

liversedge

fuzzynavel wrote:

liversedge wrote:

just did it myself. rented a powertap for a year and just ordered SRM cranks. Bob is highly knowledgeable, helpful and the service is quick and efficient.

If you don't mind me asking....why did you rent a powertap for a year and then spend your cash on SRM cranks.....Something wrong with the powertap?

I now measure power on absolutely every ride and not being able to use my own (fancy) wheels was very annoying especially for things like the FWC, Etape or Maratona. The PT needed bomb-proof rims (mavic open pro) and weighed *a lot*. The DA compact SRM cranks are actually lighter than the Shimano R700 compacts I had on my bike. I can easily perform FTP tests on my turbo using the cranks without swappng the tire on the rear wheel (using my spare 'turbo' wheel). The SRM cranks are wireless and work with the edge 705 allowing me to mix in GPS and see I can get more data displayed as I ride (8 things vs 3) - which sounds silly but is actually quite exciting as I couldn't see distance and time with Power, HR and Speed at the same time with the PT (although the ant+ updater for the PT is imminent, allegedly, which would allow using the edge with it).

But apart from that there wasn't much in it

Alex_Simmons/RST

liversedge wrote:

The PT needed bomb-proof rims (mavic open pro) and weighed *a lot*.

The PT doesn't need bombproof rims, you can lace just about any rim you like to it, provided it doesn't use some kind of special spokes.

And if one is going to compare weights, given the $ for an SRM, then you would be comparing the top end PT models which are somewhat lighter and presumably would be laced to a lighter rim as well. You could get two PT wheels set up for less than 1 x SRM.

Functionally though, no difference between PT models.

And yes, the ANT+ is coming for the PT.

fuzzynavel

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

liversedge wrote:

The PT needed bomb-proof rims (mavic open pro) and weighed *a lot*.

The PT doesn't need bombproof rims, you can lace just about any rim you like to it, provided it doesn't use some kind of special spokes.

And if one is going to compare weights, given the $ for an SRM, then you would be comparing the top end PT models which are somewhat lighter and presumably would be laced to a lighter rim as well. You could get two PT wheels set up for less than 1 x SRM.

Functionally though, no difference between PT models.

And yes, the ANT+ is coming for the PT.

I thought the ANT + PT stuff was out already

The powertap SLC+ is only about 400grams for the hub. The amatuer SRM cranks for bout the same price are over 800 grams....source..cyclepowermeters.com

Is the powertap elite + any good as a power meter......how does is compare to the pro and SL models?

Alex_Simmons/RST

fuzzynavel wrote:

I thought the ANT + PT stuff was out already

The powertap SLC+ is only about 400grams for the hub. The amatuer SRM cranks for bout the same price are over 800 grams....source..cyclepowermeters.com

Is the powertap elite + any good as a power meter......how does is compare to the pro and SL models?

ANT+ is not quite out yet for PT. Soon though.

When comparing mass of systems, it is better to talk in terms of the differential to whatever it is replacing. So no point comparing mass of the PT hub to SRM cranks. Look at the total mass change before and after change of components.

can't say specifically on the various PT models but they all operate the same and have the same electronics. It is simply materials used that vary. so you now have different axles, different material weights, different bearings etc available as options.