Vino again
Comments
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Arkibal and Dennis, you are mucking about aren't you?
Leaving aside comparisons with other teams, do you think that attempting to hire Vino - a rider serving a ban until some point in July 2009, and a rider that will hurt your invite to ASO races (some of the most prestigious in the world) - is a good thing for a cycling team?
Come on!0 -
No kidding, Columbia are not trying to sign a giant doper who humiliated ASO mid-race, so we can forget them for the time being.Arkibal wrote:You gotta be kidding me?!? Where is Columbias published results??? Funny you are not crying after them..... They won most races after all, so Cav etc. must be doped with your logic, since they haven't published any results.....Get real.
Back on topic, I repeat that this team promised transparency but we haven't seen that, they promised data but we've never seen them. The only knowledge I have that the Dane is working for them is that he seems to have caught Gusev (although he is supposed to share data with the UCI and they've done nothing).
Once again, Astana have a bad reputation with ASO and as I keep saying, signing Vinokourov is a bad move that will only annoy the Tour organisers. Do you really think Prudhomme is sitting there saying "wow, this team is really ethical now, I'm satisfied"? He's bound to have more questions than answers now.0 -
skavanagh.bikeradar wrote:Arkibal and Dennis, you are mucking about aren't you?
Leaving aside comparisons with other teams, do you think that attempting to hire Vino - a rider serving a ban until some point in July 2009, and a rider that will hurt your invite to ASO races (some of the most prestigious in the world) - is a good thing for a cycling team?
Come on!
When the ban is up, it's up. I can only speak for myself but if I had to guess I would say that someone with some sort of power on the team must have thought it was a good idea.
You and I may not think so but it doesn't matter. Football, baseball, basketball, and the like
trade, buy, release, and sign all sorts of players and you and I think "what idiots the managers and owners are". It's the way it is. Somebody always willing to sign a good player or rider irregardless of his past and hope for the best.
Dennis Noward0 -
dennisn wrote:
When the ban is up, it's up. I can only speak for myself but if I had to guess I would say that someone with some sort of power on the team must have thought it was a good idea.
Yes indeed. That's probably the Kazak government who own the team. And also control the Kazak federation. That's the ones who gave a 1 year ban and didn't accept he'd done anything wrong really. Can you say nepotism?
Disclaimer : I have never met Vino, anyone from Astana or the Kazak government.Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.0 -
Kléber wrote:
No kidding, Columbia are not trying to sign a giant doper who humiliated ASO mid-race, so we can forget them for the time being.Arkibal wrote:You gotta be kidding me?!? Where is Columbias published results??? Funny you are not crying after them..... They won most races after all, so Cav etc. must be doped with your logic, since they haven't published any results.....Get real.
Back on topic, I repeat that this team promised transparency but we haven't seen that, they promised data but we've never seen them. The only knowledge I have that the Dane is working for them is that he seems to have caught Gusev (although he is supposed to share data with the UCI and they've done nothing).
Once again, Astana have a bad reputation with ASO and as I keep saying, signing Vinokourov is a bad move that will only annoy the Tour organisers. Do you really think Prudhomme is sitting there saying "wow, this team is really ethical now, I'm satisfied"? He's bound to have more questions than answers now.
They haven't signed Vino, have they???
I'd like to hear why you give the pass to Columbia, which has been completely quiet about their AD-program. They won 76 or so races this year for crying out loud!0 -
Arkibal wrote:I'd like to hear why you give the pass to Columbia, which has been completely quiet about their AD-program. They won 76 or so races this year for crying out loud!
Mostly rubbish races, to be fair. Columbia Bashing is my sport.
But Columbia aren't trying to hire someone who caused huge embarrassment to the Tour de France. Look at it from ASO's position.
2006 - Astana / Liberty prevented from starting TdF due to links to Puerto
2007 - Astana invited to Tour de France despite a couple of positives before the Tour began. During that Tour Vino tested positive for blood transfusion and Kash was caught shortly after that
2008 - Bruyneel takes over, brings lots of new people in. Astana not invited to the Tour because of the issues of 06/07. ASO say they door is not closed forever and if they can have a year of no problems the could be invited to Tour.
Big fanfare about anti-doping program. Team have lot to prove. No data released. CSC on same program and release data.
2009 - Armstrong riding for Astana. Embarrassed race just after his retirement. Vino comes back from some token ban.. Has the team changed?
Columbia have less to prove. But at least ASO could see real change was demonstrated.Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.0 -
iainf72 wrote:dennisn wrote:
When the ban is up, it's up. I can only speak for myself but if I had to guess I would say that someone with some sort of power on the team must have thought it was a good idea.
Yes indeed. That's probably the Kazak government who own the team. And also control the Kazak federation. That's the ones who gave a 1 year ban and didn't accept he'd done anything wrong really. Can you say nepotism?
Disclaimer : I have never met Vino, anyone from Astana or the Kazak government.
Well, playing devils advocate, I would say that if you own the team you can have your whole family on it. Good idea? Probably not. But it is "their" team. Whomever "they" are.
Dennis Noward0 -
ASO will more than likely exclude Astanta. The Tour won't survive another major scandal, its hanging on as it is. We all thought this years tour was gonna be a new era, but look what happened.
I think the 08 tour was cleaner but there's still work to be done. The clean riders are getting tired of it all and they are taking a stance. People I know who know nothing about cycle racing just know that the sport id doped at the highest level. Thats why the Bike Pure anti-doping campaign was started from ground level fans because no-one trusts the authorities.
www.bikepure.org0 -
iainf72 wrote:Arkibal wrote:I'd like to hear why you give the pass to Columbia, which has been completely quiet about their AD-program. They won 76 or so races this year for crying out loud!
Mostly rubbish races, to be fair. Columbia Bashing is my sport.
But Columbia aren't trying to hire someone who caused huge embarrassment to the Tour de France. Look at it from ASO's position.
2006 - Astana / Liberty prevented from starting TdF due to links to Puerto
2007 - Astana invited to Tour de France despite a couple of positives before the Tour began. During that Tour Vino tested positive for blood transfusion and Kash was caught shortly after that
2008 - Bruyneel takes over, brings lots of new people in. Astana not invited to the Tour because of the issues of 06/07. ASO say they door is not closed forever and if they can have a year of no problems the could be invited to Tour.
Big fanfare about anti-doping program. Team have lot to prove. No data released. CSC on same program and release data.
2009 - Armstrong riding for Astana. Embarrassed race just after his retirement. Vino comes back from some token ban.. Has the team changed?
Columbia have less to prove. But at least ASO could see real change was demonstrated.
mostly rubbish races?
Stages in the Giro, Tour and WC gold? Hardly rubbish races to me...
I get the Vino thing, but the guy is not even on the team yet, and still some here are screaming for a new ban for the team, I don't get it.
What about Liquigas with Basso?
Garmin has Millar?
Scott/Beef/whatever had Ricco & Piepoli?
And the rest of the teams without ANYkind of AD-program, they are welcome. Makes no sense.0 -
BikePure wrote:Thats why the Bike Pure anti-doping campaign was started from ground level fans because no-one trusts the authorities.
www.bikepure.org
Having Floyd Landis onboard is a master stroke. That will certainly a lot of credibility to what you're trying to achieve.Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.0 -
But higher circulation figures for UK/US magazines aren't generating revenue for the Tour. And Armstrong in the Tour won't persuade significantly more Europeans - the Tour's core audience - to turn on. In fact it has driven away the Germans and their TV revenues. So I don't see where the Tour generates vast amounts of extra revenue with Armstrong in it - however, I do see that UK/US media tarts will sell more papers and magazines if he's there but does that directly benefit the Tour in terms of cold hard cash? Don't think so.0
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BikePure wrote:ASO will more than likely exclude Astanta. The Tour won't survive another major scandal, its hanging on as it is. We all thought this years tour was gonna be a new era, but look what happened.
I think the 08 tour was cleaner but there's still work to be done. The clean riders are getting tired of it all and they are taking a stance. People I know who know nothing about cycle racing just know that the sport id doped at the highest level. Thats why the Bike Pure anti-doping campaign was started from ground level fans because no-one trusts the authorities.
www.bikepure.org
So what's the big deal? No one ever trusts the "authorities". No one has since before time started. Do you really have Floyd working with you? He doesn't seem to fit your
"ground level fans" description. Although I guess he has been regulated to that status.
Dennis Noward0 -
micron wrote:But higher circulation figures for UK/US magazines aren't generating revenue for the Tour. And Armstrong in the Tour won't persuade significantly more Europeans - the Tour's core audience - to turn on. In fact it has driven away the Germans and their TV revenues. So I don't see where the Tour generates vast amounts of extra revenue with Armstrong in it - however, I do see that UK/US media tarts will sell more papers and magazines if he's there but does that directly benefit the Tour in terms of cold hard cash? Don't think so.
I not so sure. Never underestimate "star" power. Like it or not the racing season
"soap opera" is starting to really move into high gear and love him, hate him, or don't care
you will be pulled into it all, just like the rest of us and I'm sure more than a few people
who will tune in to see "what's all the fuss about".
Dennis Noward0 -
Arkibal, this is nothing to do with Columbia, start a different thread if you want to debate them.
When Vinokourov was thrown out of the Tour, it was a huge embarrassment for the race. In the days following this ASO got a lot of angry phone calls from the Kazakh government and cycling officials instead of an apology. So to teach them a lesson, they banned them for a year, to send a loud message that they want more ethical teams on board. So to sign the very rider responsible for this ban is the equivalent of sticking two fingers up at ASO.
ASO have already said Liquigas can ride, but Basso isn't welcome. ASO welcome Millar because he is now leading the fight against doping, he's apologised, part-owns a team committed to clean riding and now sits on organisations dedicated to fighting doping. I doubt Scott-American beef will be back either as long as they have Gianetti and the same team doctors in the background.
Dennis: that soap opera might play on US or British TV but it's got a much smaller audience in France, Germany or Italy.0 -
Kléber wrote:Dennis: that soap opera might play on US or British TV but it's got a much smaller audience in France, Germany or Italy.
I wasn't refering so much to the Lance "soap" as to the soap opera of the racing season in general, but British and US TV will be big and that's lots of people.
Dennis Noward0 -
Kléber wrote:Arkibal, this is nothing to do with Columbia, start a different thread if you want to debate them.
When Vinokourov was thrown out of the Tour, it was a huge embarrassment for the race. In the days following this ASO got a lot of angry phone calls from the Kazakh government and cycling officials instead of an apology. So to teach them a lesson, they banned them for a year, to send a loud message that they want more ethical teams on board. So to sign the very rider responsible for this ban is the equivalent of sticking two fingers up at ASO.
ASO have already said Liquigas can ride, but Basso isn't welcome. ASO welcome Millar because he is now leading the fight against doping, he's apologised, part-owns a team committed to clean riding and now sits on organisations dedicated to fighting doping. I doubt Scott-American beef will be back either as long as they have Gianetti and the same team doctors in the background.
Dennis: that soap opera might play on US or British TV but it's got a much smaller audience in France, Germany or Italy.
I can't believe what I'm reading. Your high horse attitude is mind blowing. You slam Vino, but cheer Millar and Columbia, who have EITHER published their test results, actually they never even said they will, so why not go after them too?
Oh, they have Cav, of course.... makes sense.
It's UCI's mistake that they only gave Vino a year ban, what can we do about it, nothing!
Do you honestly think Astana should be banned for the ASO races again? The best team and riders?0 -
Arkibal wrote:I can't believe what I'm reading. Your high horse attitude is mind blowing. You slam Vino, but cheer Millar and Columbia, who have EITHER published their test results, actually they never even said they will, so why not go after them too?
Oh, they have Cav, of course.... makes sense.
It's UCI's mistake that they only gave Vino a year ban, what can we do about it, nothing!
Do you honestly think Astana should be banned for the ASO races again? The best team and riders?
The UCI didn't give any ban to Vino. That's the point. The Kazakh fed slapped a token year ban on him. He said he'd retired and the UCI didn't bother to follow up. Their mistake.
McQuaid is now trying to shut the barn door, but legally, it appears the horse has bolted.
In fairness to Bruyneel and his "new" Astana, there doesn't appear that there's much he'll be able to do, either. It's the Kazakh governement who ultimately pull the strings and Vino is their "golden child".
What this brings to the ASO's door, is the opportunity to stick two fingers up to Lance, without appearing to be, in any way, malicious. On the contrary, they will remain true to their conditions outlined at the outset.
There is no point in crying foul and pointing the finger at Columbia, or any other team, for that matter.
This was always going to be a potential problem for Bruyneel. He took on the job, as the only other alternative afforded him was retirement.
How ironic, that the man who did much to put him in that predicament, in the first place, may also suffer as a result. One Lance Armstrong.
You have to place all your hope in the word of Pat McQuaid. Best of luck, there."Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.0 -
dennis, I think you'd be surprised at the viewing figures - I believe they're something like half a million for the US, 1 millionish for the UK and 10+ million across Europe.
The core audience for the TdF is casual viewers like my old neighbour Pierrette who used to wear a yellow T-short for the 3 weeks of the race and loved Virenque. Or the old guy in the village who had once owned a bike that might have been owned by someone who rode the Tour in the 50s. Or my tractor driving mate who would tune in and catch the last few kms. The core audience is made up of people who watch the race for a variety of reasons, and who are vastly knowledgeable (in a very casual way) but who are not die hard 'Lance Lovers' or French Fanboys or anything else - just people who love their national event. It's important to realise that, for the French, for the core audience, this is an event, a cultural icon, that is a damned sight more important than any jumped up Texan with an ego the size of his home state and a bad case of the male menopause.0 -
It's like a juvenille version of groundhog day.
Arkibal, there is a difference - now post fall from grace - between Millar and Vino. I don't condone either act of cheating. However whereas Millar is now a voice for anti-doping and has cooperated with the 'authorities' and is attempting to drive the sport forward, putting his money where his mouth is by part owning a team with an ethical intent....Vino....weeelll he's not keen on seeing out all of his ban on the basis that his Federation (not the UCI) commuted it to 1 year. The UCI in an act of laziness ignored it as he was claimed to be retiring. You are right, we can do nothing. But that doesn't mean we have to apologise for the failure of the Kazakhs or the UCI.
As Kleber says, start a new thread about Columbia if you want to debate that.
I don't think you have to be a rocket surgeon or brain scientist to understand the fundamental ignorance displayed by Astana in even considering Vino. It puts at risk their participation in major cycling events for all of 2009. It looks bad. It is terrible PR. It might prevent other star Astana riders from competing at the Giro, the Tour etc. Who wins? Nobody.0 -
micron wrote:for the core audience, this is an event, a cultural icon, that is a damned sight more important than any jumped up Texan with an ego the size of his home state and a bad case of the male menopause.
Don't believe I ever said Lance was more important than the TDF. Yourself and lots of others on this site seem to think you have to convince "us" of this. Sounds more like you're trying to convince yourselves. Something I read about "protests too much" comes to mind. Everybody knows that when Lance or Tiger are gone cycling and golf will still be around. That's not news to anyone.
Dennis Noward0 -
LangerDan wrote:I wouldn't be so sure ASO will stop Astana. Commercially, ASO stand to gain far,far more coverage (esp. in the US) from Lance being there, leading to increased interest from advertisers and sponsors and ultimately revenue, than they will lose because people are upset with Vino. A "moral" stance of excluding Astana will cost ASO millions.
I would suspect that commercial reasons hastened Patrice Clerc's departure (particularly the Dakar debacle). Prudhomme may be mindful of this.
Not forgetting that ASO need to get their product in the territories where the UCI is keen to expand as well, which I guess includes the 'stans and the east, where Vino plays rather well. I don't see how it could play well to exclude Contador, given his star value, for a second year running. Let's face it, barring Lance, he's the biggest marquee name going in the sport at the moment.
I'm currently giggling at the prospect of just how outraged Kimmage is going to be. Is there a stage beyond apoplexy?0 -
Can we stick to Vino? Please. Please. Start a new thread to trade insults about LA.0
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Arkibal, where have I defended Columbia? Like I say, start your own thread and we can debate them
In the meantime, this is about Vino and Astana. Why defend a team signing Vinokourov? :roll:0 -
Phew. Yes indeed. Why?0
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micron wrote:But higher circulation figures for UK/US magazines aren't generating revenue for the Tour. And Armstrong in the Tour won't persuade significantly more Europeans - the Tour's core audience - to turn on. In fact it has driven away the Germans and their TV revenues. So I don't see where the Tour generates vast amounts of extra revenue with Armstrong in it - however, I do see that UK/US media tarts will sell more papers and magazines if he's there but does that directly benefit the Tour in terms of cold hard cash? Don't think so.
ASO/The tour doesn't need more revenues from core territories in Europe (incidentally I think the rights for European TX are done via the EBU and then parcelled up, so actually the "heartland" probably gets a better rate thanks to the power of collective bargaining) because it's bled them dry over the years. What it needs is money from emerging and developing markets where it can score off on a high rate because they are buying in as fresh. Over the years ARD will have bargained down its rate as the big hit is when you first buy in.
How does new audience in territories outside core EU benefit the tour? Well ASO will be drawing up their rate card for advertisers, partners, supporters and every other sticker merchant and that rate card is based on predicted audience and share. I know from speaking to a couple of UK broadcasters that it's absolutely nailed on that they'll get record audience figures if Armstrong rides. And if they know that then you can be certain that ASO are billing for it.0 -
Briliant, so how does the supposed return to action of a 'retired', not-quite-served-my-full-ban disgraced Kazakh fit into that? Exactly?0
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If you want to figure out how a magician performs a trick, don't look at that hand thats doing all the waving - look at the other one. Bruyneel has got us all busy watching the Vino "hand" and we have all taken our attention from the Lance "hand" we were scrutinising for the last few weeks.
Johann doesn't strike me as the sort of guy that allows unplanned things to happen to him. Vinos return was always a possibility, Bruyneel has a plan for this too. He's offered Vino up as a distraction at the moment and possibly as a "sacrificial lamb" in the future, to be barred by ASO in return for letting the remainder of the team enter the TdF.'This week I 'ave been mostly been climbing like Basso - Shirley Basso.'0 -
LangerDan wrote:Johann doesn't strike me as the sort of guy that allows unplanned things to happen to him. Vinos return was always a possibility, Bruyneel has a plan for this too. He's offered Vino up as a distraction at the moment and possibly as a "sacrificial lamb" in the future, to be barred by ASO in return for letting the remainder of the team enter the TdF.
You're probably right on the money.Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.0 -
Nah....the Kazakh government also have a cunning plan.
They will outbid Lance for the ASO and have the TDF team water bottles printed with Vino's face and "Go fetch, Lance".
Seriously, we all know that anything that can be used to bargain, will be. Astana will offer a Basso-like opt out, with Vino and they'll be on board the Tour express.
Probably the same for the Vuelta, too."Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.0 -
dennisn wrote:BikePure wrote:ASO will more than likely exclude Astanta. The Tour won't survive another major scandal, its hanging on as it is. We all thought this years tour was gonna be a new era, but look what happened.
I think the 08 tour was cleaner but there's still work to be done. The clean riders are getting tired of it all and they are taking a stance. People I know who know nothing about cycle racing just know that the sport id doped at the highest level. Thats why the Bike Pure anti-doping campaign was started from ground level fans because no-one trusts the authorities.
www.bikepure.org
So what's the big deal? No one ever trusts the "authorities". No one has since before time started. Do you really have Floyd working with you? He doesn't seem to fit your
"ground level fans" description. Although I guess he has been regulated to that status.
Dennis Noward
Hi Dennis,
Thanks for making this point. Team Health Net signed to Bike Pure's anti doping code several weeks prior to Landis' arrival. Bike Pure were totally unaware that Landis was to join Health Net. Part of the affiliation process to Bike Pure is that teams and riders sign an 'Honour Code' to state they are clean etc. They have a separate Honour Code for former dopers. The ex-doper honour code states that their past actions have damaged the sport and that they unreservedly apologise to fans and fellow cyclists for their actions of the past and support life bans.
Bike Pure has had no correspondence with Landis as of yet. Bike Pure's stance is that there should be stiffer penalties for dopers. Life bans where possible.
see this link on bike pure
http://jellybellycycling.com/2008/11/12 ... e-pureorg/0
