Vino again
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id= ... nov13news2
He really doesn't believe he's done anything wrong, does he?
Also some interesting bits about the passports in there. Could be a bit of winter scandal to warm us up.
He really doesn't believe he's done anything wrong, does he?
Also some interesting bits about the passports in there. Could be a bit of winter scandal to warm us up.
Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
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I can hear the voices in a Parisian suburb going, "Astana, adieu".
It neatly solves the dilemma of whether to invite Astana to the Tour, the team is clearly unreformed, hiring an unrepentant rider who has yet to serve a proper ban. He's only coming back because he wants to and because the Kazakh political entourage in the team has a clear say in team policy, exactly the thing that ASO feared. It gives the moralisers at ASO every bit of ammunition they need to sink Bruyneel's master plan.
It also allows them to take a swipe at the sloppy UCI after the governing body decided not to press for a full ban because they thought he was going to retire, a terrible precedent which will only encourage busted riders to say "I'm retiring", only to make a miraculous comeback when it suits them.0 -
And, oh, to have been a fly on the wall in casa Contador when he heard about this....
Interesting he includes Liege-Bastigne-Liege in his come-back pans, an ASO race.0 -
iainf72 wrote:http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2008/nov08/nov13news2
He really doesn't believe he's done anything wrong, does he?
He got caught doping. I'm pretty sure he knows that. He's been sitting for a year or so
and I'm also pretty sure he knows that. Him believing that he hasn't done anything wrong? That's a bit of a stretch. Pretty hard to lie to yourself.
Dennis Noward0 -
FJS wrote:And, oh, to have been a fly on the wall in casa Contador when he heard about this....
Well he is an old team mate............
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/10/ ... strong.php0 -
I wouldn't be so sure ASO will stop Astana. Commercially, ASO stand to gain far,far more coverage (esp. in the US) from Lance being there, leading to increased interest from advertisers and sponsors and ultimately revenue, than they will lose because people are upset with Vino. A "moral" stance of excluding Astana will cost ASO millions.
I would suspect that commercial reasons hastened Patrice Clerc's departure (particularly the Dakar debacle). Prudhomme may be mindful of this.'This week I 'ave been mostly been climbing like Basso - Shirley Basso.'0 -
But did that same 'moral stance' cost the Tour millions last year? Not really. You have to remember that the US TV figures, even at the height of 'Lancemania' were miniscule compared to the heartland European figures. Plus there's the credit crunch - will the American Armstrong fans still be willing and able to fly to France (or anywhere else) in as great numbers as before? And how many US sponsors are the Tour going to lose by excluding Astana?
For ASO it's a win win situation - for Astana it's a very silly mess that could easily result in the loss of their real star rider Contador. Bruyneel tricked him once - I suspect he'll be out of there as fast as his wheels can take him.0 -
There is a lesson for us all here, folks.
When things go quiet, the backroom wheeler-dealing has begun.
I've said for months, Vino would be back and sooner than expected.
I'll go on record and predicted a Kazakh fed-UCI compromise suspension of 18 months.
McNut's on very shaky ground, after lazily allowing Vino to opt for the Mancebo gambit, (nice one DavyL
) without first securing the full two years.
Out will come the PR spin and Vino will be in turquoise, this Spring.
However, I'm not sure which way the new, UCI-friendly ASO will swing."Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.0 -
The 'UCI friendly ASO' already showed their teeth when the new boss talked about Armstrong 'embarassing the race' days after the new accord was reached... 0
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micron wrote:The 'UCI friendly ASO' already showed their teeth when the new boss talked about Armstrong 'embarassing the race' days after the new accord was reached...
Are you lost again? 8)
Nice to think of Bruyneel getting stitched up with a bit of his own medicine. (sorry for the MM.....that's mixed metaphor......not that other MM. ) "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.0 -
LangerDan, ASO are predictably unpredictable. But given the exposure to the US is small compared to the interests in France, ASO want to protect the race first, once they've reduced the scandal factor of the race, then they will concentrate on selling it abroad.0
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Kléber wrote:He's only coming back because he wants to........
It also allows them to take a swipe at the sloppy UCI after the governing body decided not to press for a full ban because they thought he was going to retire, a terrible precedent which will only encourage busted riders to say "I'm retiring", only to make a miraculous comeback when it suits them.
I'm not really following your statement "......coming back because he wants to". Why else
would he do it? I sure wouldn't go back to work if I didn't want to. Well, if I needed money,
but what's wrong with "wanting to ride again"? I like riding and don't like it when I can't and I don't see him being any different than any of us in that respect. Racing is fun. Mixing it up with the boys is a "hoot" no matter what level you race at.
As for his "miraculous comeback", there have been many top athletes in many sports
that have "sat out" for a year, and some even more, from injuries, retirement, or whatever, yet have returned to the top ranks. I don't think it's that "miraculous. But I'm
starting to ramble(as usual).
Dennis Noward0 -
Blazing Saddles wrote:
Nice to think of Bruyneel getting stitched up with a bit of his own medicine.
Maybe not. Perhaps he too will opt for the Mancebo gambit and get out of the mess.
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micron wrote:But did that same 'moral stance' cost the Tour millions last year? Not really. You have to remember that the US TV figures, even at the height of 'Lancemania' were miniscule compared to the heartland European figures. Plus there's the credit crunch - will the American Armstrong fans still be willing and able to fly to France (or anywhere else) in as great numbers as before? And how many US sponsors are the Tour going to lose by excluding Astana?
For ASO it's a win win situation - for Astana it's a very silly mess that could easily result in the loss of their real star rider Contador. Bruyneel tricked him once - I suspect he'll be out of there as fast as his wheels can take him.
Its nothing to do with the numer of "Travelling Americans". Even the number of "travelling Frenchmen" at the Tour is an irrelevance in comparison to the TV and print media coverage it generates. Look at the amount of coverage in the few short weeks since Lance announced his comeback and no-one travelled anywhere.
The Tour with Lance is a commercially better proposition than a Tour without Lance. We've already seen on another thread how profitable the presence of Lance is for magazines. Higher circulation/viewer figures draws in more advertising which can be charged at a higher rate.
In terms of numbers, "cyclists" are also a miniscule proportion of the potential audience. Even if we all get the hump and decide not to watch the Tour, it will make little difference overall. As long as coverage can be sufficiently sexed- up, the masses will keep watching. They won't really care if Vino is there too.
Its not a question of "losing" anything. If ASO dump Astana, the race will make a certain amount of money - as happened this year. If Astana (and specifically Lance) is there, they will make more.'This week I 'ave been mostly been climbing like Basso - Shirley Basso.'0 -
Kléber wrote:I can hear the voices in a Parisian suburb going, "Astana, adieu".
It neatly solves the dilemma of whether to invite Astana to the Tour, the team is clearly unreformed, hiring an unrepentant rider who has yet to serve a proper ban. He's only coming back because he wants to and because the Kazakh political entourage in the team has a clear say in team policy, exactly the thing that ASO feared. It gives the moralisers at ASO every bit of ammunition they need to sink Bruyneel's master plan.
It also allows them to take a swipe at the sloppy UCI after the governing body decided not to press for a full ban because they thought he was going to retire, a terrible precedent which will only encourage busted riders to say "I'm retiring", only to make a miraculous comeback when it suits them.
You do realize he's NOT going to be riding this year."I am having a meeting with representatives of the Kazakh federation tomorrow," Pat McQuaid told Cyclingnews on Thursday morning. "There is no way he will be allowed back. The UCI does not accept the one-year sanction, it should have been two years.0 -
How can ASO ban Astana from it's races again even
if Vino joins the team, are they going to ban every team who have hired/had a doper on their team?
Not many teams left then...
And agree with Dan, Lance in the Tour will pour massive attention to the race, like him or not. ASO would be a big loser for banning him/his team, financially, as Dan has pointed out.
And again, like it or not, Contador and Lance are the biggest stars in cycling at the moment, banning them from their races again would be pretty short sighted.0 -
LangerDan wrote:Its not a question of "losing" anything. If ASO dump Astana, the race will make a certain amount of money - as happened this year. If Astana (and specifically Lance) is there, they will make more.
Depends, if Lance is charging his NZ rates...... :shock:Le Commentateur wrote:Blazing Saddles wrote:
Nice to think of Bruyneel getting stitched up with a bit of his own medicine.
Maybe not. Perhaps he too will opt for the Mancebo gambit and get out of the mess.
How long would it have to last, to constitute a Bruyneel retirement? The last one seemed to last no time at all. :roll:
donrhummy.....such innocence."Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.0 -
Arkibal, the point is that Vino can't even come back yet because he hasn't served a proper ban. Above all, ASO can invite who they like. ASO certainly do ban some riders. There's no way, for example, that the likes of Rasmussen or Landis will ever ride the race again and I'm not sure they want the Texan there either. The same goes for Basso, they've said he's not welcome too.
ASO barred Astana because they believed the team needed to prove its commitment to a cleaner cycling. So far, where's the evidence of this cleaner team? Daamsgard publishes charts and data on CSC, there's been nothing about Astana apart from Gusev getting thrown out.
Now they are signing a doper who hasn't even served a proper ban and who has yet to apologise to them. So any moves to try to sign Vinokourov will be treated as a rearguard move, a sign that the team is not backing newer and healthier riders.
We'll see but it's a serious blow to the teams credibility.0 -
Assuming he can get away with no additional ban time, won't Vino have to provide 6-months worth of data for the rider passport scheme? It sounds very far fetched that he'll be riding any early season races to me.0
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donrhummy, you need to read further on. The "not coming back" is quickly diluted to "That would certainly preclude him from riding the Classics next year". So i think blazing saddles is on the money: "18 months", consisting of 12 month kazakh ban (maybe disputed in CAS, but riding through the litigation) plus a (delayed) 6 months because his blood profile only started sometime recently (or not so recently, who knows).
He'll clearly be back.0 -
Kléber wrote:Arkibal, the point is that Vino can't even come back yet because he hasn't served a proper ban.
Now they are signing a doper who hasn't even served a proper ban and who has yet to apologise to them. So any moves to try to sign Vinokourov will be treated as a rearguard move, a sign that the team is not backing newer and healthier riders.
Kleber, the point is that you yourself do not decide what a "proper ban" is.
As far as Vino apologizing to "them" I would really question if you are privy to the goings
on between racers, teams, promoters, etc. and who said they are sorry to whom. Just because you didn't read about it, see it on the news, heard it thru the grapevine, or
however, doesn't mean it didn't happen. Just an observation, but it does seem that some of the posters want the riders to apologize to them personally. I see the word apologize
a lot. Not sure what an apology will do for you and / or them and I doubt you'll get one.
In any case you don't know what he said and to whom. How could you? And that's a serious question.
Dennis Noward0 -
Kléber wrote:Arkibal, the point is that Vino can't even come back yet because he hasn't served a proper ban. Above all, ASO can invite who they like. ASO certainly do ban some riders. There's no way, for example, that the likes of Rasmussen or Landis will ever ride the race again and I'm not sure they want the Texan there either. The same goes for Basso, they've said he's not welcome too.
ASO barred Astana because they believed the team needed to prove its commitment to a cleaner cycling. So far, where's the evidence of this cleaner team? Daamsgard publishes charts and data on CSC, there's been nothing about Astana apart from Gusev getting thrown out.
Now they are signing a doper who hasn't even served a proper ban and who has yet to apologise to them. So any moves to try to sign Vinokourov will be treated as a rearguard move, a sign that the team is not backing newer and healthier riders.
We'll see but it's a serious blow to the teams credibility.
What should the team do more? They've hired Damsgaard, had no positives this year.
That's much more than fe. Lampre, Liquigas or QS have done.
Columbia never published any results either, yet all believe they are clean, even when ACE went down mysteriously....0 -
If there is the wrong end of a stick to be had then you know Dennis will be along soon to grab it with both hands.0
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andyp wrote:If there is the wrong end of a stick to be had then you know Dennis will be along soon to grab it with both hands.
Trust me, I'm only the pot stirrer. You guys are the ones throwing all the wrong ingredients in this vile stew you've concocted. Every day it's "let's add a bit more dirt
and dirty laundry". Along the way someone else decides that "it needs, at least, a goodly amount of hatred and drugs". It's not hard to see that this stew is headed for the garbage bucket despite my stirring. Even so some other person comes along and thinks he can make it really tasty by adding "just a hint of betrayal and deceit". Too many cooks who
can't cook, make for one bad batch of stew.
Dennis Noward0 -
So far they might have hired Dasgaard to drive the team bus, because he certainly hasn't published anything. We were promised news in July, nothing. Then August, nada, then the September deadline came and went. We're now mid-November and I'm still waiting. Perhaps they are all clean, if so why do they need to sign this guy?Arkibal wrote:What should the team do more?
Let me put my points above more concisely: signing Vinokourov is a backward step and it will damage the team's reputation. ASO is setting out to reward ethical and honest teams. Ask yourself, will it reward a team that is even bothering to talk to this guy?
I'm not saying ASO will never invite Astana, merely that this is a big step back for the team's attempts to rehabilitate its reputation with ASO.0 -
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andyp wrote:Arkibal wrote:Columbia never published any results either, yet all believe they are clean, even when ACE went down mysteriously....
"Iainf72 to this thread please. Iainf72 to this thread please."
You rang.
I have complete faith in the team run by a guy with the initials BS.Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.0 -
Kléber wrote:
So far they might have hired Dasgaard to drive the team bus, because he certainly hasn't published anything. We were promised news in July, nothing. Then August, nada, then the September deadline came and went. We're now mid-November and I'm still waiting. Perhaps they are all clean, if so why do they need to sign this guy?Arkibal wrote:What should the team do more?
Let me put my points above more concisely: signing Vinokourov is a backward step and it will damage the team's reputation. ASO is setting out to reward ethical and honest teams. Ask yourself, will it reward a team that is even bothering to talk to this guy?
I'm not saying ASO will never invite Astana, merely that this is a big step back for the team's attempts to rehabilitate its reputation with ASO.
You gotta be kidding me?!?
Where is Columbias published results??? Funny you are not crying after them.....
They won most races after all, so Cav etc. must be doped with your logic, since they haven't published any results.....
Get real.0 -
micron wrote:
For ASO it's a win win situation - for Astana it's a very silly mess that could easily result in the loss of their real star rider Contador. Bruyneel tricked him once - I suspect he'll be out of there as fast as his wheels can take him.
I sort of get the sense that a lot of posters seem to think that there is a lot of "ill will"
between riders, sponsors, directors, organizers, etc. So and so dislikes so and so and
so and so and so and so really screwed over so and so. Somehow, this doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me(I know - what does?). From a personal viewpoint I find that the longer I work with people the better our relationships become. They have too. It just seems that in an endeavor that puts people together for long periods of time and requires
that they work well together, that people who can't adapt to this kind of thing just won't make it. No basketball team, or any team, will tolerate disruptive, non team players. I think that in the end most of these guys are team players and realize that it's their jobs if they're not. There are always exceptions but it's a bit hard to believe that any team
would bring in someone that they know is going to cause problems by not doing what he's told, not getting along with the rest of the team. You know, "doesn't play well with others". Add to all of this the fact that it's a tough business and if you don't preform well
you're "on the bench" at the very least.
Dennis Noward0
