Cadences and "bouncing"

Gothmeister

Not sure if this is the right forum....apologies if it's not!

I have finally got a Cadence sensor fitted and am trying to build up to the "recommended" rate, BUT, I am riding an MTB (full suspension - don't know if either fact is relevant?) and whenever I try to pedal in excess of about 80rpm, I feel like I'm bodily bouncing on the bike and it gets very disconcerting. I'm not using clipless pedals.

Is this some kind of technique problem....a bike sizing problem...or will it just eventually disappear as I get used to this rate of cadence?

HELP!!

lateralus

the suspension could be a factor but, basically, you'll get used to it. If you stick at it, as your pedalling technique gets smoother, the bouncing will stop.

redddraggon

There is no recommended cadence, I like to use to cadence but I try not to get hung up on it. Just pedal at what you feel comfort - don't try and hit a magic number.

Gothmeister

redddraggon wrote:

There is no recommended cadence, I like to use to cadence but I try not to get hung up on it. Just pedal at what you feel comfort - don't try and hit a magic number.

I'm not trying to hit a magic number, but general consensus is cadences within a certain range are preferable/more efficient/or whatever and I am trying to reach that ball park.

My query is whether my current inability to spin the pedals at 80+ rpm (let alone 90-100!) is a normal beginner's problem or something that I'm doing wrong and can therefore correct.

redddraggon

Gothmeister wrote:

I'm not trying to hit a magic number, but general consensus is cadences within a certain range are preferable/more efficient/or whatever and I am trying to reach that ball park.

Hmm, the range is 60 - 120rpm I'd say. Not a small range.

As you produce more power you will naturally pedal at a higher cadence - so worry about the power before you worry about cadence. Cadence will look after itself in the end.

Gothmeister

redddraggon wrote:

Gothmeister wrote:

I'm not trying to hit a magic number, but general consensus is cadences within a certain range are preferable/more efficient/or whatever and I am trying to reach that ball park.

As you produce more power you will naturally pedal at a higher cadence -

So, as I understand it from what you and Lateralus say, the "bouncing" sensation will eventually disappear as I get more experienced and/or develop more power......

Eddy S

Producing more power will not get rid of the bouncing. Depending on how you apply it, it could make it worse.

It seems that the problem lies with your pedaling technique and style. Sounds like you’re trying to mash monster gears around at low cadence.

The bouncing won’t stop until you start pedalling smoothly and ‘in circles’ so that’s what you have think about applying.

To achieve this initially, try using smaller gears – the side benefit will be that you will be forced to pedal at higher cadence.

BTW, I hit 180+ on the rollers...

dennisn

Some years back I was out riding with a friend who has a long history of track
racing. I marvelled at how he was able to spin at 130 RPM without bouncing in his seat.
Me, I got near 100 and seemed to run into bouncing difficulties. He told me that the
"current thinking"(remember this was "some years back") was to try to force your toes
forward at the top of the pedal stroke. Not down, not pulling up, but toward the front.
Tried it and "bingo" no bounce(well at least a bit less). Not something that I use constantly,
but when the grinding out of miles starts to get to your legs, shifting to slightly different
pedal stroke styles can almost feel refreshing. Sometimes I think circles, sometimes
I concentrate on pulling up, others times toes forward. Helps to break things up a bit and
you learn different pedal stroke styles and over the years you tend to setttle into one that suits you.

Dennis Noward

biondino

If you imagine your legs moving purely up and down, you can see how they'd bounce at relatively low cadences. Think more about moving forward at the top of the stroke. You can even try to concentrate on moving a perfect 360 degree circle and see how that feels - obviously you won't actually ride a bike like that but it might get rid of the bounce and give you an idea of the changes you need to make to your technique.

mclarent

can I suggest you go clipless as well, really is incomparable to not-clipless(??)

I'm assuming that you don't have toe-clips (on a MTB??), so part of your bounce is possibly that you can only push, not pull, so you have no counterbalance to the down stroke on your pedal. Will be accentuated if you're trying to push big gears. All the other pedalling advice is good IMHO, my favourite drill is to concentrate on pushing down with one leg and simultaneously pulling up with the other - e.g. 16 times on "one leg" (if you get my meaning), 16 times the other, then both together...

Alex_Simmons/RST

Can everyone stop thinking about pedal technique. It does not require thinking. Just pedal.

If you would like to be able to pedal a little faster than you are now, then (providing you are set up OK on the bike):

- do some riding with sets at a higher cadence than you typically ride at, enough to just bring that bounce on. Over time you'll get used to it and begin to ride longer at that rate and be able turn the cranks more quickly and fluidly

- work on increasing your sustainable power.

Pedalling is very low skill activity (relative to sports like football, cricket, golf etc) and the body will work it out quickly enough by giving it enough stimulus. It doesn't need thinking, it just needs doing.

I mean 5hrs/week at 80rpm is 1.2 million revs/year. That's a lot of practice. So do a few hundred thousands revs at a rate you don't feel as comfortable at and the body will adapt all by itself without having to think about it.

Gothmeister

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

Can everyone stop thinking about pedal technique. It does not require thinking. Just pedal........

It doesn't need thinking, it just needs doing.......

OK, OK, keep your hair on!!!!! :roll:

Point taken!

(Like I said earlier, I just wanted to check that this sensation was sort of "normal". So, thanks to everyone, the answer seems to be I'm not necessarily doing anything wrong, I just need to keep at it.)

Alex_Simmons/RST

Gothmeister wrote:

OK, OK, keep your hair on!!!!! :roll:

There's not much left!!

It more about the advice on pedalling "technique" I was thinking of when I wrote that.

Bouncing happens. Make sure your bike is set up well, then just do some over spinning work. It'll improve with practice.

Gothmeister

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

Make sure your bike is set up well........

Anything specific I should be checking?

liversedge

IME recruiting the right muscle groups through the pedal stroke is not something you just do. You need to learn (be taught) what is right and what is wrong. Posture is obviously a big part of this as well as internalising the sensations of pushing off with the glutes, pulling back with the hams etc.

a good fitting will help reveal pedalling inefficiencies or even better a decent coach.

andrewgturnbull

Gothmeister wrote:

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

Make sure your bike is set up well........

Anything specific I should be checking?

Yup - check your seat isn't too low. Mountain bikes usually have seats set up on the low side, which is great for off road stuff, but I find you need to put them up a bit for road riding, especially at high cadence.

Cheers, Andy

Gothmeister

Thanks for all the help, guys!

I did a couple of hours on the Fowlmead tarmac track this morning and managed slightly higher cadences before the bouncing started.

bahzob

Seconded on fitting front. Should include checking leg length and feet alignment(fix via wedges). Got both sorted this year and difference in terms of smoothness in pedalling is amazing.

Too soon to say but think this will translate to performance. One thing I have noticed is that that I ride fixed over winter and am now comfortable(ish) going downhill at over 160rpm with no bouncing.

scapaslow

when the grinding out of miles starts to get to your legs, shifting to slightly different
pedal stroke styles can almost feel refreshing. Sometimes I think circles, sometimes
I concentrate on pulling up, others times toes forward. Helps to break things up a bit and
you learn different pedal stroke styles

I find myself doing this a lot and find that at different times using different pedal techniques I can produce more power (for at while anyway) - so i do think it's worth thinking about or experimenting with at least. Thinking about pulling up on the upstroke especially on hills seems to make a difference to me as well as a sensation of pushing down with the whole leg as a unit on flatter terrain (hope that makes some sense). Another one is imagining i'm lying back on a recumbent and pedalling upwards. If i don't think about it i tend to go slower. So probably i need to decide on which works best and do it for long enough so i don't have to think about it anymore. But you need to think about something.........

I've found riding fixed downhill soon sorts out the bouncing - you soon learn to relax the hips and go with the bike rather than fighting it but do make sure you've got your seat height set properly first.

mclarent

liversedge wrote:

IME recruiting the right muscle groups through the pedal stroke is not something you just do. You need to learn (be taught) what is right and what is wrong. Posture is obviously a big part of this as well as internalising the sensations of pushing off with the glutes, pulling back with the hams etc.

I have to agree with that - there are some people who naturally have "soupless" as the French call it (a nice smooth pedal technique to the rest of us!), but I for one certainly have to work on it. Pushing down is pretty natural, but the pull back, up and over takes work.

Best thing I read on this made the point that there's no point in training hard, getting into great shape, only to lose all the benefits you've created through poor riding technique - pedalling, drafting, cornering, whatever.

NJK

mclarent wrote:

liversedge wrote:

IME recruiting the right muscle groups through the pedal stroke is not something you just do. You need to learn (be taught) what is right and what is wrong. Posture is obviously a big part of this as well as internalising the sensations of pushing off with the glutes, pulling back with the hams etc.

I have to agree with that - there are some people who naturally have "soupless" as the French call it (a nice smooth pedal technique to the rest of us!), but I for one certainly have to work on it. Pushing down is pretty natural, but the pull back, up and over takes work.

Best thing I read on this made the point that there's no point in training hard, getting into great shape, only to lose all the benefits you've created through poor riding technique - pedalling, drafting, cornering, whatever.

Pedalling is easy i did it when i was five. I never think right i will pull back and now i'm gonna push up and over, you won't ever pedal smoothly constantly thinking like that. Your better off thinking push and release.

liversedge

what about advice like "pedalling from the hips" or "sitting alert" or "let the hill come to you" ? You may have been a child prodigy NJK - I wasn't!!!!!

eh

For one of the first times ever Alex I disagree it is worth thinking about pedalling technique albeit only sometimes and on for the odd few minutes on a warm down or something. Best way to sort it practise cycling one legged for a while best down on a turbo.

I also think pedalling technique is way more important on a full sus mtb, than any other bike, because it is easy to set the suspension bouncing with a low cadence mashing style, which isn't efficient or pretty. Heck all the bike/shock manufacturers haven't spent ages trying to tune out pedal induced bob for nothing, think Horst link etc.

Blonde

My cadence has got faster since I started riding fixed. At first I bounced going down hill on a 69 inch gear (and even on a slightly larger 72 inches). Now I don't. You get better with practice, but relaxing your legs/letting them go round naturally whilst at the same time engaging your core abdominal muscles helps stop the bouncing.

NJK

liversedge wrote:

what about advice like "pedalling from the hips" or "sitting alert" or "let the hill come to you" ? You may have been a child prodigy NJK - I wasn't!!!!!

I've never heard any of those. I don't understand the bouncing on the saddle, is it because your seated to high so it is a positional probelm or is it because your pedalling at to higher cadence. I think you are all getting a bit complicated, i very rarely think about engaging anything on the bike it just happens especially as your legs are generally going round at one and half times a second. It is all about set-up.

liversedge

I thought pedalling from the hips was really well known? the sitting alert came from a fitting I once had where I was being encouraged to get my lower back more arched, in fact it was described as being ready to rugby tackle someone. the let the hill come to you I've heard many, many times - but largely from the long distance guys and thinking about it could be more to do with pacing yourself than technique.