When did it start for you?
Comments
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Moray Gub wrote:there is nothing worse than a self confessed expert who in reality knows the sqaure root of feck all but likes to inform all and sundry that they are somehow more knowledgeable and others are not.
That statement covers people from both sides of the argument, doesn't it?
Knowing the person is not that relevant really. I have a friend who knows someone quite well who's been done for a doping offence in cycling and served a ban. (old forum hats will know who I'm talking about) Does that mean he's in a better position to offer an opinion?Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.0 -
Moray Gub wrote:oldwelshman wrote:dennisn wrote:aurelio wrote:
I think you are stretching your interpretation of what I was arguing way beyond what I actually said.Moray Gub wrote:Jeez you really do have some issues with Lance dont you , to equate him with that right wing nonsense is quite ludicrous .
I am not saying that Armstrong personally buys into the sort of right-wing insanity which holds that the US should bomb France or believes that Obama is a card-carrying communist. However, Armstrong knows full well that he can undermine the position of bodies such as the LNDD by playing on anti-French xenophobia. By doing this he inevitably validates and reinforces such prejudices.
Why do I think this? Firstly, we know that strong `Freedom Fries`, anti-French attitudes are common over in the USA. One reason for this seems to be that over in the `Land of the Free` so many are brainwashed into regarding anything to the left of G.W. Bush as being practically Soviet-style communism and a threat to `The American Way`. (The planks of which appear to include maintaining a poverty rate of 22% , the denial of health care to 40 odd million people, 700 Billion dollar subsidies for the financial fat cats and a militarised quest for global domination costing around 350 million dollars per day in Iraq alone).
Secondly, anti-French attitudes of various shades of bile are frequently expressed by those defending Armstrong (including by Pat McQuaid).
Thirdly, Armstrong himself has frequently resorted to anti-French rhetoric, has spread the myth that he and the likes of Landis are the victims of an `Anti-American conspiricy` on the part of `The French` and has even said that a major attraction of riding the Tour was to `piss off the French`.
I think it would be rather disingenuous to claim that all these factors are unrelated and have no influence on each other.
And I thought I was good at coming up with conspiracy theorys. I need more practice.
Anyway, IF you are really for real(and I'm starting to have my doubts) I can assure you
that not to many Americans have the time or the inclination to worry about or hate the
French or whomever. Why would we do this and to what end? I don't buy whatever it is
you're preaching and to be honest I really don't know what you're trying to say. I do know hate when I hear it and definately sense a bit of excess baggage in that area.
Dennis Noward
Have to agree Dennis that most Americans do not hate the French, probably only becsue they do not know where France is
On many occasions I have been to USA, Chicago, LA, NY, Miami. most Americans have very limited knowledge of world affairs and a very poor grasp of Geography outside USA.
I was talking to a couple of people in Chicago and they asked me about my accent, I told them I was from Wales and they asked " Hey, is that in London? " enough said 8)
Do i smell the whiff of stereotyping here............i am presuming you have met hundreds and thousands if not millions of Americans to be able to form such opinions. Or is it maybe a smaller number over a few drinks in a bar ?
cheers
MG
MG, is this all you do? read persons posts and pass comment on individuals posts?
Why are you presuming I have met hundreds and thousands of Americans? I did not suggest I had, I was just making a light hearted comment of my own personal observations from previous business and holiday trips, which also happen to be true of many (but probably not all) Americans with respect to Geography though I am sure you will be along soon to correct me and ask for statistical evidenc to proove my point.0 -
oldwelshman wrote:Moray Gub wrote:oldwelshman wrote:dennisn wrote:aurelio wrote:Moray Gub wrote:
MG, is this all you do? read persons posts and pass comment on individuals posts?
Why are you presuming I have met hundreds and thousands of Americans? I did not suggest I had, I was just making a light hearted comment of my own personal observations from previous business and holiday trips, which also happen to be true of many (but probably not all) Americans with respect to Geography though I am sure you will be along soon to correct me and ask for statistical evidenc to proove my point.
This is a public forum mate anything you post is open to comment by others , thats what public forums are all about.I thought your comments re : Americans in general having poor geography kinda absurd based on a few business trips.If youre not happy with me pointing that out then theres not much i can do about that.
cheers
MGGasping - but somehow still alive !0 -
iainf72 wrote:Moray Gub wrote:there is nothing worse than a self confessed expert who in reality knows the sqaure root of feck all but likes to inform all and sundry that they are somehow more knowledgeable and others are not.
That statement covers people from both sides of the argument, doesn't it?
Knowing the person is not that relevant really. I have a friend who knows someone quite well who's been done for a doping offence in cycling and served a ban. (old forum hats will know who I'm talking about) Does that mean he's in a better position to offer an opinion?
Who is to say anyone is better placed than another to have an opinion ? thats my whole arguement it strikes me as certain people somehow think their opinion is somehow more valid than others............go back a day or two a poster even claimed to be more knowledgeable based on his posting count........i mean puuuulllleeeezzzeee
cheers
MGGasping - but somehow still alive !0 -
iainf72 wrote:Moray Gub wrote:there is nothing worse than a self confessed expert who in reality knows the sqaure root of feck all but likes to inform all and sundry that they are somehow more knowledgeable and others are not.
That statement covers people from both sides of the argument, doesn't it?
Knowing the person is not that relevant really. I have a friend who knows someone quite well who's been done for a doping offence in cycling and served a ban. (old forum hats will know who I'm talking about) Does that mean he's in a better position to offer an opinion?
Yes, you say he actually knows this rider, unlike you, who doesn't. Maybe this rider is a good person and simply made a mistake in life. Maybe he's an idiot and deserves what he gets. Thing is, you don't know. The whole thing reminds me of a book I read. Something about a guy stealing a loaf of bread and being hounded the rest of his life for it. Is this something you'd like to have happen to you for a simple lapse in judgement? Seems to be
what a more than a few people want. You guys are an angry crowd out there. Have a little fun in life.
Dennis Noward0 -
Ever paused to wonder why some cycling fans are angry? The people who are doing something most of us only dream of have been involved in systematic doping on an endemic scale for years, protected by the governing body. Then treat us like idiots when they get caught.dennisn wrote:You guys are an angry crowd out there.0 -
dennisn wrote:[Is this something you'd like to have happen to you for a simple lapse in judgement? Seems to be
what a more than a few people want. You guys are an angry crowd out there. Have a little fun in life.
A simple lapse in judgement? So removing your blood, and retransfusing it over a period of years is a "lapse in judgement"
I've never implied they're bad people. Most of them are probably good, generally fairly moral guys like the rest of us. The system is rotten but people need to take responsibility for their actions.
I hope you voted before posting.
Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.0 -
So you're suggesting that doping to earn fame and fortune is a valid comparison to stealing to feed yourself or your family when hungry? You really believe you can foist this kind of flawed reasoning on people and they will just swallow it? You want us to believe that if we sanction a doper we are somehow taking bread out of his mouth? Isn't it more honorable to be an honest taxi driver than a cheating athlete?dennisn wrote:The whole thing reminds me of a book I read. Something about a guy stealing a loaf of bread and being hounded the rest of his life for it. Is this something you'd like to have happen to you for a simple lapse in judgement? Seems to be
what a more than a few people want. You guys are an angry crowd out there. Have a little fun in life. Dennis Noward
Everyone has options. Or are you suggesting that when a young man of twenty or thirty, someone with their entire life in front of them, is faced with the choice of cheating or honesty, they actually say to themselves, "Gee, I have no other options." And you want us to believe that the choice to go to a doping doctor, acquire PEDs, then administer them in a manner that will avoid detection is a "lapse in judgement"? Do you know the meaning of the word incredulous? It is what I am becoming when I read your posts.0 -
andyp wrote:By your own logic, because you don't know all the people on this forum how can you say this about them?
Funny, that's what I was thinking. Seems Dennis knows all about us, simply from the content of our posts. No samples necessary. I'll just say his assumptions are inaccurate and plead Omerta.
As this is really all about blowing smoke, defending the only rider that matters, I think I'll bow out.
Not interested in yet another, one dimensional thread.
I note that others, too, have "observed" a certain style to these debates."Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.0 -
Moray Gub wrote:oldwelshman wrote:Moray Gub wrote:oldwelshman wrote:dennisn wrote:aurelio wrote:Moray Gub wrote:
MG, is this all you do? read persons posts and pass comment on individuals posts?
Why are you presuming I have met hundreds and thousands of Americans? I did not suggest I had, I was just making a light hearted comment of my own personal observations from previous business and holiday trips, which also happen to be true of many (but probably not all) Americans with respect to Geography though I am sure you will be along soon to correct me and ask for statistical evidenc to proove my point.
This is a public forum mate anything you post is open to comment by others , thats what public forums are all about.I thought your comments re : Americans in general having poor geography kinda absurd based on a few business trips.If youre not happy with me pointing that out then theres not much i can do about that.
cheers
MG
Ah ok, your one of "those " posters I see, sense of humour bypass, you should get out a bit more often in the real world instead of forums.
I see you provved my point in your next posts,
As for finding my point about American's poor geography absurd, your correct it is your point which differs from mine so be it.
I will let you have your fun in this post criticising others, I have other thing to do to keep me amused.0 -
oldwelshman wrote:Moray Gub wrote:oldwelshman wrote:Moray Gub wrote:oldwelshman wrote:dennisn wrote:aurelio wrote:Moray Gub wrote:
cheers
MG
Ah ok, your one of "those " posters I see, sense of humour bypass, you should get out a bit more often in the real world instead of forums.
I see you provved my point in your next posts,
As for finding my point about American's poor geography absurd, your correct it is your point which differs from mine so be it.
I will let you have your fun in this post criticising others, I have other thing to do to keep me amused.
Yea i see that such as replying to me ,and do us all a favour stop being such drama queen, you would think my post was the first time someone had disagreed with you.
cheers
MGGasping - but somehow still alive !0 -
andyp wrote:
Ever paused to wonder why some cycling fans are angry? The people who are doing something most of us only dream of have been involved in systematic doping on an endemic scale for years, protected by the governing body. Then treat us like idiots when they get caught.dennisn wrote:You guys are an angry crowd out there.
I think you're taking it way too personally. How does someone who got caught doping
translate into treating you like an idiot? Well, they deny it, you say? And you have never denied going a bit to fast in your car when the police pulled you over? Never told your parents that you didn't "do it" when you did? Do you think that these riders, or anyone
else for that matter, are perfect? Say a friend of yours makes a mistake(i.e. in with the wrong crowd, does some drugs, whatever). Your response is "he's done for life"?
No good from here on out? Not a chance? I thought people with halos around their heads were supposed to be forgiving.
Dennis Noward0 -
iainf72 wrote:dennisn wrote:[Is this something you'd like to have happen to you for a simple lapse in judgement? Seems to be
what a more than a few people want. You guys are an angry crowd out there. Have a little fun in life.
A simple lapse in judgement? So removing your blood, and retransfusing it over a period of years is a "lapse in judgement"
I hope you voted before posting.
Murder is a "lapse in judgement". You know you shouldn't do it but it happens.
Voted last week - absentee ballot.
Dennis Noward0 -
If you have to ask questions like this, you really need to start reading your posts a few more times before you submit them. When people are deceived, they become angry precisely because the deceiver manipulated our natural desire to believe, to trust. This is called playing someone for a fool, and assumes that trusting people are fools. When people are humiliated in this manner, the natural response is anger. When VDB conquers the cols with panache, we want to believe we saw a great athletic performance. When we are confronted with the reality that VDB deceived us and manipulated our willingness to trust, we are rightfully angry. This is really human behavior 101, Dennis. Does is mean anything at all to you that you have to have it explained to you on an internet forum?dennisn wrote:How does someone who got caught doping translate into treating you like an idiot? Dennis Noward0 -
derby wrote:
If you have to ask questions like this, you really need to start reading your posts a few more times before you submit them. When people are deceived, they become angry precisely because the deceiver manipulated our natural desire to believe, to trust. This is called playing someone for a fool, and assumes that trusting people are fools. When people are humiliated in this manner, the natural response is anger. When VDB conquers the cols with panache, we want to believe we saw a great athletic performance. When we are confronted with the reality that VDB deceived us and manipulated our willingness to trust, we are rightfully angry. This is really human behavior 101, Dennis. Does is mean anything at all to you that you have to have it explained to you on an internet forum?dennisn wrote:How does someone who got caught doping translate into treating you like an idiot? Dennis Noward
No, I don't need it explained to me. I knew it already. Just wanted some honest soul to admit it. Although I doubt that the riders are out to deceive you .They are out to win.
You are the one who put your trust in the wrong people. I don't believe the riders spend
a bunch of time trying to manipulate your trust. They spend a lot of time riding and maybe doping but you are the one responsible for who you put your trust in and pouring a bunch of emotion into someone you don't know just might be a bit disappointing once in a while. Thanks for the honest answer.
Dennis Noward0 -
I'm trying to work through Dennis's argument here and find myself thinking of that esteemed commentator Phil Liggett - a man who never rode as a pro and therefore, one assumes, never sweated and lived and died with his professional teammates through a cycling season. Yet he is arguably the best known commentator on the sport. Manolo Saiz should never have been in the sport because he never rode as a pro. And I presume any woman is precluded from commentating on a male sport because she can't possibly know what it's like to live it 365 days a year?
What a funny, narrow little world you must live in where you can only express opinions on things you, what, have a degree in? Or will nothing less than a doctorate do? I read some excellent posts on these forums that are thought provoking and well argued - it matters not a bit to me whether those posters have intimate knowledge of the dirty, sweaty world of pro cycling or whether they read books and watch races and go on a club run. I'm interested in their opinions and you show a great degree of disrespect to some of the people who post here.
MG I cheerfully admit that I can talk out of my ars* with the best of them - just hopefully not the worst of them 0 -
micron wrote:.... I'm interested in their opinions and you show a great degree of disrespect to some of the people who post here.
MG I cheerfully admit that I can talk out of my ars* with the best of them - just hopefully not the worst of them
I think if you read some of the post by a variety of people you'll find that there is plenty of name calling, insulting language, lots of berating, and wild acquisitions about riders,
race organizers, and other various cycling officials on this site. But if I say something about someone who is on this forum, well, that's "disrespect". You can be as disrespectful as you like as long as it's not about someone on this site??? Is that how it works?? Lance, Pat, Frank, Bernard, - they're not on this site so who cares what we say. But when someone calls them out on this and says that maybe they don't know
squat about it, well, that's just wrong?
Dennis Noward0 -
dennisn wrote:I think if you read some of the post by a variety of people you'll find that there is plenty of name calling, insulting language, lots of berating, and wild acquisitions about riders,
race organizers, and other various cycling officials on this site. But if I say something about someone who is on this forum, well, that's "disrespect". You can be as disrespectful as you like as long as it's not about someone on this site???
Who's acquiring something?
Dennis, have you considered opinions people hold may be formed based on publically available evidence? Some have different interpretations of things but that stimulates debate. For example, I don't trust Columbia the team when I put various pieces together but many people on the site are big supporters. I don't think they're idiots - I've got an opinion, which I might change my mind on (after all, changing your mind when you get evidence is a strength) if something new comes to light. It doesn't keep me awake at night though.
As someone put it a while ago, argue the point not the man.
You must just be trying to wind us up.Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.0 -
Would this be like B of A's acquision of Countrywide? Or maybe Tinkov's acquisition of Hamilton? What wild acquisitions are taking place on the forum here, Dennis?dennisn wrote:I think if you read some of the post by a variety of people you'll find that there is plenty...wild acquisitions Dennis Noward0 -
With this cursed internet anonymity that everybody appears party to I suppose I'll never find out the truth of the matter , but it's crossed my mind that ' dennisn' might actually be Lance . :?"Lick My Decals Off, Baby"0
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mercsport wrote:With this cursed internet anonymity that everybody appears party to I suppose I'll never find out the truth of the matter , but it's crossed my mind that ' dennisn' might actually be Lance . :?
Don't think so - we'd all be having our asses sued after the second post.
(Note - this is a personal opinion, formed from information in the public domain and not as the result of having spent most of my adult life living with Armstrong and thus may be deeply flawed. The value of this opinion can fall as well as rise. Terms and conditions apply. This view is regulated by the Office of the Opinion Regulator. E&OE, BYOB)'This week I 'ave been mostly been climbing like Basso - Shirley Basso.'0 -
mercsport wrote:With this cursed internet anonymity that everybody appears party to I suppose I'll never find out the truth of the matter , but it's crossed my mind that ' dennisn' might actually be Lance . :?
No, you all know my name. I live in Toledo, Ohio USA. You might even catch a picture
of me at www.freewheel.com . I'm the off and on race director of a club called the
Maumee Valley Wheelmen. We race every Thursday, April thru September. I'll be 60
in December. Never met Lance. I ride a steel Gios Compact Pro(with a steel fork no less).
No, I'm not the anonymous one. Although I do actually have a left nut problem(not cancer - so no TDF for me).
Dennis Noward0 -
derby wrote:
Would this be like B of A's acquision of Countrywide? Or maybe Tinkov's acquisition of Hamilton? What wild acquisitions are taking place on the forum here, Dennis?dennisn wrote:I think if you read some of the post by a variety of people you'll find that there is plenty...wild acquisitions Dennis Noward
Ya got me on that one. But in my defense, my computer spell check said it was OK.
And it is the right spelling of the wrong word. I really didn't have much of a clue as to how to actually spell accusation. Thought there was a q in it and the spell check said I was close.
:oops: :oops:
Dennis Noward0 -
dennisn wrote:
I think if you read some of the post by a variety of people you'll find that there is plenty of name calling, insulting language, lots of berating, (snip)
Yes, & not least from yourself, Dennis.
This forum seems to upset you hugely & you appear to want to change that by confronting it with "facts" (which are no more or less factual than the points you are countering). We've almost all disagreed with almost everyone else on this forum with various degrees of politeness or otherwise at various points, but one of the things that has made this forum really function is that people have tended to go away & re-examine their perpective after these disagreements & come back with a fresh perspective. This has made this forum a really well regarded & interesting resource. For the past few weeks, it's become a bit of a desert, why is this?
If I'm right, you seem to find it offensive that folk who haven't sweated blood like the pros would have a not-positive opinion of them. I can understand this. However, you seem not to get that folk get upset when the people they respect lie to them & mislead them. Where there's anger on both sides, agreement is rarely reached & the best result is normally reached by walking away....
That you don't appear either to understand any experience other than your own & that you seek to convert by repetition (at times quite aggressive repetition) makes you appear like a troll & puts you in a lose-lose position: you lose influence to change opinion where folk engage or folk just disregard your posts and/or the forum becomes utterly irrelevant.
I think you have some interesting points to make & can make some valid & valuable input into the debates that occur here, however, unless you start to have regard to the views of others, you'll only make a valid opinion less so.
So, can we drop the baiting & aggression? Maybe if you show evidence of taking onboard evidence, folk will be more willing to take your opnions onboard.
Bottom line is change the way you argue or resign yourself to being ignored.
I'd like to see the former, however, I'm not convinced you'll want to alter anything...
On the OP, you may want to sit with some basic pychology text books which can tell you why there is this disagreement & why there is this conflict of views (look for reasons why certain people really polarise opinions, then find DSM-IV-TR & you'll discover that the debate is largely irrelevant to the points you're trying to make )
For info, I don't hate anyone & would prefer informed debate to emotionally based vitriol, although this might answer the OT too...0 -
Just a damn shame there are no logic check programs out there. :roll:dennisn wrote:derby wrote:
Would this be like B of A's acquision of Countrywide? Or maybe Tinkov's acquisition of Hamilton? What wild acquisitions are taking place on the forum here, Dennis?dennisn wrote:I think if you read some of the post by a variety of people you'll find that there is plenty...wild acquisitions Dennis Noward
Ya got me on that one. But in my defense, my computer spell check said it was OK.
And it is the right spelling of the wrong word. I really didn't have much of a clue as to how to actually spell accusation. Thought there was a q in it and the spell check said I was close.
:oops: :oops:
Dennis Noward0 -
iainf72 wrote:dennisn wrote:I think if you read some of the post by a variety of people you'll find that there is plenty of name calling, insulting language, lots of berating, and wild acquisitions about riders,
race organizers, and other various cycling officials on this site. But if I say something about someone who is on this forum, well, that's "disrespect". You can be as disrespectful as you like as long as it's not about someone on this site???
Who's acquiring something?
Dennis, have you considered opinions people hold may be formed based on publically available evidence? Some have different interpretations of things but that stimulates debate. For example, I don't trust Columbia the team when I put various pieces together but many people on the site are big supporters. I don't think they're idiots - I've got an opinion, which I might change my mind on (after all, changing your mind when you get evidence is a strength) if something new comes to light. It doesn't keep me awake at night though.
As someone put it a while ago, argue the point not the man.
You must just be trying to wind us up.
"....argue the point not the man". I quote a few of your posts.
".....repellent republican" in reference to G.W. Bush
".....seriously WTF" in reference to Pat McQuaid
"....is he a complete idiot" again in ref. to McQuaid
Those are right to the point, not the man.
But it's OK because those people aren't on the forum and have no feelings.
Dennis Noward0
