When did it start for you?

dennisn
dennisn Posts: 10,601
edited November 2008 in Pro race
Just curious when all of the Lance haters actually started to hate him.

Dennis Noward
«134

Comments

  • derby
    derby Posts: 114
    I never even thought about hating Lance until I read your posts, so I guess you need to add:

    7.) After reading Dennis' posts about Lance.
  • robjhp
    robjhp Posts: 21
    How about.When i found out he was an arrogant bully and if that wasn't bad enough he's american.
  • iainf72
    iainf72 Posts: 15,784
    Why would anyone hate him without knowing him?

    I hate what he stands for in the cycling world. Hate the game, not the player.
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • LangerDan
    LangerDan Posts: 6,132
    I first saw Lance as a neo-pro in the '92 Nissan Classic on Mushera mountain in West Cork (and have a photo to prove it!)

    I decided then that I'd probably need to dislike him the future.
    'This week I 'ave been mostly been climbing like Basso - Shirley Basso.'
  • dennisn
    dennisn Posts: 10,601
    iainf72 wrote:
    Why would anyone hate him without knowing him?

    I hate what he stands for in the cycling world. Hate the game, not the player.

    "Why would anyone.......?" That's what I've been asking all along.

    "I hate what he......." Not sure what you're saying there.

    Dennis Noward
  • moray_gub
    moray_gub Posts: 3,328
    derby wrote:
    I never even thought about hating Lance until I read your posts, so I guess you need to add:

    7.) After reading Dennis' posts about Lance.

    Likewise i never even thought about hating lance until i read your post about Dennis' post about hating Lance i guess you need to add

    9) After reading Derbys, post about Dennis' posts about hating Lance

    :-)


    cheers
    MG
    Gasping - but somehow still alive !
  • moray_gub
    moray_gub Posts: 3,328
    iainf72 wrote:
    Why would anyone hate him without knowing him?

    I hate what he stands for in the cycling world. Hate the game, not the player.

    So you hate professional cycling then ?



    cheers
    MG
    Gasping - but somehow still alive !
  • derby
    derby Posts: 114
    Moray Gub wrote:
    derby wrote:
    I never even thought about hating Lance until I read your posts, so I guess you need to add:

    7.) After reading Dennis' posts about Lance.

    Likewise i never even thought about hating lance until i read your post about Dennis' post about hating Lance i guess you need to add

    9) After reading Derbys, post about Dennis' posts about hating Lance

    :-)


    cheers
    MG
    Err, that would be choice #8. Gotta get the hate right or it doesn't count. :wink:
  • moray_gub
    moray_gub Posts: 3,328
    dennisn wrote:
    iainf72 wrote:
    Why would anyone hate him without knowing him?

    I hate what he stands for in the cycling world. Hate the game, not the player.

    "Why would anyone.......?" That's what I've been asking all along.

    "I hate what he......." Not sure what you're saying there.

    Dennis Noward


    Its easy to hide behind the drugs issue i suppose when really a lot of folks are having a pop at him because he is an American and an opinionated one at that.If Lance was European i suspect he would not attract half the criticism he does.

    cheers
    MG
    Gasping - but somehow still alive !
  • moray_gub
    moray_gub Posts: 3,328
    derby wrote:
    Moray Gub wrote:
    derby wrote:
    I never even thought about hating Lance until I read your posts, so I guess you need to add:

    7.) After reading Dennis' posts about Lance.

    Likewise i never even thought about hating lance until i read your post about Dennis' post about hating Lance i guess you need to add

    9) After reading Derbys, post about Dennis' posts about hating Lance

    :-)


    cheers
    MG
    Err, that would be choice #8. Gotta get the hate right or it doesn't count. :wink:

    Ahhh i know why i missed 8 out, i am off to the pub and i was thinking about how many pints i am gonna sink tonight......thats it 9

    :-)

    cheers
    MG
    Gasping - but somehow still alive !
  • dennisn
    dennisn Posts: 10,601
    Moray Gub wrote:
    derby wrote:
    Moray Gub wrote:
    derby wrote:
    I never even thought about hating Lance until I read your posts, so I guess you need to add:

    7.) After reading Dennis' posts about Lance.

    Likewise i never even thought about hating lance until i read your post about Dennis' post about hating Lance i guess you need to add

    9) After reading Derbys, post about Dennis' posts about hating Lance

    :-)


    cheers
    MG
    Err, that would be choice #8. Gotta get the hate right or it doesn't count. :wink:

    Ahhh i know why i missed 8 out, i am off to the pub and i was thinking about how many pints i am gonna sink tonight......thats it 9

    :-)

    cheers
    MG

    If I knew which pub you were going to I would join you. One of those days at work that
    can only be helped by a few too many beers or margarita's. No wait, I can't join you. I'd
    probably get jet lag and have to get some rest. Go ahead and start without me.

    Dennis Noward
  • iainf72
    iainf72 Posts: 15,784
    Moray Gub wrote:
    Its easy to hide behind the drugs issue i suppose when really a lot of folks are having a pop at him because he is an American and an opinionated one at that.If Lance was European i suspect he would not attract half the criticism he does.

    You're probably right there. A lot of the criticism is based along anti-American lines and that does the people holding those opinions no favours.

    For what it's worth, I think of Lance and Ullrich in exactly the same way.

    To me, Lance and Ullrich represent an era of cycling which has passed. It's not gone away but his return is just ripping open the wounds again. We all suspected in the past how bad things were just went along for the ride. Here's the top 10 from LA's final TDF victory

    1 Lance Armstrong (USA) Discovery Channel 86.15.02 (41.654 km/h)
    2 Ivan Basso (Ita) Team CSC 4.40
    3 Jan Ullrich (Ger) T-Mobile Team 6.21
    4 Francisco Mancebo (Spa) Illes Balears-Caisse d'Epargne 9.59
    5 Alexandre Vinokourov (Kaz) T-Mobile Team 11.01

    6 Levi Leipheimer (USA) Gerolsteiner 11.21
    7 Michael Rasmussen (Den) Rabobank 11.33
    8 Cadel Evans (Aus) Davitamon-Lotto 11.55
    9 Floyd Landis (USA) Phonak Hearing Systems 12.4410 Oscar Pereiro Sio (Spa) Phonak Hearing Systems 16.04

    60% done for dopage or related offences since then. The only one who doesn't seem to have a question mark hovering over them is Cadel.
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • Yes, the Festina Affair did a lot to clean up the sport. :roll:

    Take a look at the final GC for '97, the last Tour before Virenque's tears.

    Final General Classification
    1. Jan Ullrich (Ger) TEL 100.30.35
    2. Richard Virenque (Fra) FES 9.09
    3. Marco Pantani (Ita) MER 14.03

    4. Abraham Olano (Spa) BAN 15.55
    5. Fernando Escartin (Spa) KEL 20.32 (Fuentes connection only)
    6. Francesco Casagrande (Ita) SAE 22.47
    7. Bjarne Riis (Dan) TEL 26.34
    8. Jose Maria Jimenez (Spa) BAN 31.17
    9. Laurent Dufaux (Swi) FES 31.55

    10. Roberto Conti (Ita) MER 32.26
    11. Beat Zberg (Swi) MER 35.41
    12. Oskar Camenzind (Swi) MAP 35.52
    13. Peter Luttenberger (Aut) RAB 45.39
    14. Manuel Beltran (Spa) BAN 49.34

    A couple of others have Q marks over them, too. I'm not sure which is worse 1997, or 2005. :(

    Me? Pretty ambivalent about Lance. Hope he rides the Giro. He'll go up in my estimation, if he does.
    What I don't like is the hoards of 3WF's he attracts. Instant experts, who know next to nothing about the pro RR scene, but like to tell everyone how it is.
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • I'm pretty sure you can put great big question marks next to the four riders you didn't bold out there too BlazingSaddles.

    For what it's worth here's the rest of the top 20...

    15 Jean-Cyril Robin France US Postal Service 58' 35"
    16 Michael Boogerd Netherlands Rabobank 1h00' 33"
    17 Bobby Julich United States Cofidis 1h01' 10"
    18 Daniele Nardello Italy Mapei-GB 1h01' 30"
    19 Christophe Moreau France Festina 1h02' 48"
    20 Stéphane Heulot France La Française des Jeux 1h06' 13"
  • Jez mon
    Jez mon Posts: 3,809
    I don't like him for the shameless bullying of Simeoni. It's seriously got nothing to do with the fact that he's american. After all, a lot of Lance haters are LeMond fans, they are also Garmin fans.

    It does frustrate me when poeple automatically assume that lance is hated for his brash American style.
    You live and learn. At any rate, you live
  • aurelio_-_banned
    aurelio_-_banned Posts: 1,317
    edited November 2008
    Jez mon wrote:
    I don't like him for the shameless bullying of Simeoni. It's seriously got nothing to do with the fact that he's american. After all, a lot of Lance haters are LeMond fans, they are also Garmin fans. It does frustrate me when poeple automatically assume that lance is hated for his brash American style.
    As a Lemond fan and a critic of Pharmstrong I agree. That said, even if some do dislike Pharmstrong for the type of American he is (`an arrogant, brash Texan` seems to be a favoured description, even amongst fellow Americans) or dislike him for his close association with some rather repellent Republicans, such as George W. Bush, that is hardly the same as disliking him for being an American per say.

    Personally one reason I dislike him is the blatant way he feeds and exploits blinkered and essentially right-wing anti-French sentiments in order to bolster his position. Such attitudes seem to be all too common over in the USA. You know the sort of thing I mean...

    http://tinyurl.com/6hqlh6

    http://www.cafepress.com/rightwingstuff/133379
  • moray_gub
    moray_gub Posts: 3,328
    Jez mon wrote:
    I don't like him for the shameless bullying of Simeoni. It's seriously got nothing to do with the fact that he's american. After all, a lot of Lance haters are LeMond fans, they are also Garmin fans.

    It does frustrate me when poeple automatically assume that lance is hated for his brash American style.

    I dont think everybody is hating him for nationality reasons but there are many many who do imo and they hide behind the drug issue when they do so. As Iain said it does them no favours

    like this

    ''How about.When i found out he was an arrogant bully and if that wasn't bad enough he's american.''

    cheers
    MG
    Gasping - but somehow still alive !
  • I don't hate Lance at all, I actually quite like the guy, believe it or not. I just accept that to achieve what he did and in the manner he did, he had to dope.

    I am a big fan of Lemond. Mainly since I read more about him, watched more videos and listened to him talk about doping. I am a much bigger fan of Lemond than Lance, Indurain, Pantani, Ullrich, etc.
  • iainf72
    iainf72 Posts: 15,784
    aurelio wrote:
    many might not like his close association with some rather repellent Republicans, such as George W. Bush, but that is hardly the same as disliking him for being an American per say.

    I think he'll just hang with powerful people, regardless of their political leanings. He used the Clintons platform to announce his return.
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • iainf72 wrote:
    aurelio wrote:
    many might not like his close association with some rather repellent Republicans, such as George W. Bush, but that is hardly the same as disliking him for being an American per say.
    I think he'll just hang with powerful people, regardless of their political leanings. He used the Clintons platform to announce his return.
    But being a power groupie is hardly a positive trait, and as they say, `You can judge a man by the company he keeps:` :wink:
  • robert mugabe and simon cowell are deserving of hate. I merely dislike armschlong but not enough to not enjoy watching him ride
  • moray_gub
    moray_gub Posts: 3,328
    aurelio wrote:
    Jez mon wrote:
    I don't like him for the shameless bullying of Simeoni. It's seriously got nothing to do with the fact that he's american. After all, a lot of Lance haters are LeMond fans, they are also Garmin fans. It does frustrate me when poeple automatically assume that lance is hated for his brash American style.
    As a Lemond fan and a critic of Pharmstrong I agree. That said, even if some do dislike Pharmstrong for the type of American he is (`an arrogant, brash Texan` seems to be a favoured description, even amongst fellow Americans) or dislike him for his close association with some rather repellent Republicans, such as George W. Bush, that is hardly the same as disliking him for being an American per say.

    Personally one reason I dislike him is the blatant way he feeds and exploits blinkered and essentially right-wing anti-French sentiments in order to bolster his position. Such attitudes seem to be all too common over in the USA. You know the sort of thing I mean...

    http://tinyurl.com/6hqlh6

    http://www.cafepress.com/rightwingstuff/133379

    Jeez you really do have some issues with Lance dont you , to equate him with that right wing nonsense is quite ludicrous ..........even for someone such as yourself whos hatred for Lance is on the verge of being obsessional




    cheers
    MG
    Gasping - but somehow still alive !
  • Moray Gub wrote:
    Jeez you really do have some issues with Lance dont you , to equate him with that right wing nonsense is quite ludicrous .
    I think you are stretching your interpretation of what I was arguing way beyond what I actually said.

    I am not saying that Armstrong personally buys into the sort of right-wing insanity which holds that the US should bomb France or believes that Obama is a card-carrying communist. However, Armstrong knows full well that he can undermine the position of bodies such as the LNDD by playing on anti-French xenophobia. By doing this he inevitably validates and reinforces such prejudices.

    Why do I think this? Firstly, we know that strong `Freedom Fries`, anti-French attitudes are common over in the USA. One reason for this seems to be that over in the `Land of the Free` so many are brainwashed into regarding anything to the left of G.W. Bush as being practically Soviet-style communism and a threat to `The American Way`. (The planks of which appear to include maintaining a poverty rate of 22% , the denial of health care to 40 odd million people, 700 Billion dollar subsidies for the financial fat cats and a militarised quest for global domination costing around 350 million dollars per day in Iraq alone).

    Secondly, anti-French attitudes of various shades of bile are frequently expressed by those defending Armstrong (including by Pat McQuaid).

    Thirdly, Armstrong himself has frequently resorted to anti-French rhetoric, has spread the myth that he and the likes of Landis are the victims of an `Anti-American conspiricy` on the part of `The French` and has even said that a major attraction of riding the Tour was to `piss off the French`.

    I think it would be rather disingenuous to claim that all these factors are unrelated and have no influence on each other.
  • leguape
    leguape Posts: 986
    aurelio wrote:
    Moray Gub wrote:
    Jeez you really do have some issues with Lance dont you , to equate him with that right wing nonsense is quite ludicrous .
    I think you are stretching your interpretation of what I was arguing way beyond what I actually said.

    I am not saying that Armstrong personally buys into the sort of right-wing insanity which holds that the US should bomb France or believes that Obama is a card-carrying communist. However, Armstrong knows full well that he can undermine the position of bodies such as the LNDD by playing on anti-French xenophobia. By doing this he inevitably validates and reinforces such prejudices.

    Why do I think this? Firstly, we know that strong `Freedom Fries`, anti-French attitudes are common over in the USA. One reason for this seems to be that over in the `Land of the Free` so many are brainwashed into regarding anything to the left of G.W. Bush as being practically Soviet-style communism and a threat to `The American Way`. (The planks of which appear to include maintaining a poverty rate of 22% , the denial of health care to 40 odd million people, 700 Billion dollar subsidies for the financial fat cats and a militarised quest for global domination costing around 350 million dollars per day in Iraq alone).

    Secondly, anti-French attitudes of various shades of bile are frequently expressed by those defending Armstrong (including by Pat McQuaid).

    Thirdly, Armstrong himself has frequently resorted to anti-French rhetoric, has spread the myth that he and the likes of Landis are the victims of an `Anti-American conspiricy` on the part of `The French` and has even said that a major attraction of riding the Tour was to `piss off the French`.

    I think it would be rather disingenuous to claim that all these factors are unrelated and have no influence on each other.

    And the inverse, of irrational and widespread anti-Americanism being utterly rife in French public life? No, never heard anyone suggest the French might loathe and be obsessed with America in equal measure at all.

    The French resorting to baseless anti-American rhetoric? Absolutely unheard of.

    Then again, it's a nation that booed Anquetil and punched Merckx among its more glorious moments in the history of cycling. And then acted like Virenque was the wronged party for years.
  • leguape wrote:
    And the inverse, of irrational and widespread anti-Americanism being utterly rife in French public life? No, never heard anyone suggest the French might loathe and be obsessed with America in equal measure at all.
    I have lived in France for some years now and have never come across such attitudes, quite the reverse in fact. The local radio station even plays French-language Country and Western songs!

    There are numerous sites in the USA selling rabid anti-French merchandice similar to the one I linked to. Do you know of any French-based sites selling similar anti-American material? I don`t.

    It seems that every other American based cycling forum has people expressing anti-French sentiments, especially when the subject of Pharmstrong or Landis comes up. I have never seen anything remotely comparable on French forums.

    Then again, perhaps it all depends on what you mean by `Anti-Americanism`. Certainly there are understandable concerns in France about issues such as the spread of neo-liberalism and America`s quest for `Full spectrum dominance`. However, I wouldn`t say that expressing such concerns amounts to `Anti-Americanism` per say. Unless, of course, you believe that violating the sovereignty of other nations, enforcing inhuman embargos - just one of which that cost the lives of half a million Iraqi children, undermining legitimate governments in order to install military dictatorships and so on actually defines what `Americanism` means.

    Personally I would like to believe that such actions are actually a perversion of what the `real` American stands for, whatever the likes of McCain and Palin might say, and I know that many French people feel the same way.
  • dennisn
    dennisn Posts: 10,601
    aurelio wrote:
    Moray Gub wrote:
    Jeez you really do have some issues with Lance dont you , to equate him with that right wing nonsense is quite ludicrous .
    I think you are stretching your interpretation of what I was arguing way beyond what I actually said.

    I am not saying that Armstrong personally buys into the sort of right-wing insanity which holds that the US should bomb France or believes that Obama is a card-carrying communist. However, Armstrong knows full well that he can undermine the position of bodies such as the LNDD by playing on anti-French xenophobia. By doing this he inevitably validates and reinforces such prejudices.

    Why do I think this? Firstly, we know that strong `Freedom Fries`, anti-French attitudes are common over in the USA. One reason for this seems to be that over in the `Land of the Free` so many are brainwashed into regarding anything to the left of G.W. Bush as being practically Soviet-style communism and a threat to `The American Way`. (The planks of which appear to include maintaining a poverty rate of 22% , the denial of health care to 40 odd million people, 700 Billion dollar subsidies for the financial fat cats and a militarised quest for global domination costing around 350 million dollars per day in Iraq alone).

    Secondly, anti-French attitudes of various shades of bile are frequently expressed by those defending Armstrong (including by Pat McQuaid).

    Thirdly, Armstrong himself has frequently resorted to anti-French rhetoric, has spread the myth that he and the likes of Landis are the victims of an `Anti-American conspiricy` on the part of `The French` and has even said that a major attraction of riding the Tour was to `piss off the French`.

    I think it would be rather disingenuous to claim that all these factors are unrelated and have no influence on each other.

    And I thought I was good at coming up with conspiracy theorys. I need more practice.
    Anyway, IF you are really for real(and I'm starting to have my doubts) I can assure you
    that not to many Americans have the time or the inclination to worry about or hate the
    French or whomever. Why would we do this and to what end? I don't buy whatever it is
    you're preaching and to be honest I really don't know what you're trying to say. I do know hate when I hear it and definately sense a bit of excess baggage in that area.

    Dennis Noward
  • P.s With regards Virenque. One major poll amongst young French people rated Virenque as being the second most detested person in France after the right-wing politician Le Pen. Virenque was also lampooned for years on the French version of `spitting image` and his famous claim about doping without knowledge of his own free will has become a popular French idiom meaning hypocritical denial...
  • leguape
    leguape Posts: 986
    aurelio wrote:
    leguape wrote:
    And the inverse, of irrational and widespread anti-Americanism being utterly rife in French public life? No, never heard anyone suggest the French might loathe and be obsessed with America in equal measure at all.
    I have lived in France for some years now and have never come across such attitudes, quite the reverse in fact. The local radio station even plays French-language Country and Western songs!

    There are numerous sites in the USA selling rabid anti-French merchandice similar to the one I linked to. Do you know of any French-based sites selling similar anti-American material? I don`t.

    It seems that every other American based cycling forum has people expressing anti-French sentiments, especially when the subject of Pharmstrong or Landis comes up. I have never seen anything remotely comparable on French forums.

    Then again, perhaps it all depends on what you mean by `Anti-Americanism`. Certainly there are understandable concerns in France about issues such as the spread of neo-liberalism and America`s quest for `Full spectrum dominance`. However, I wouldn`t say that expressing such concerns amounts to `Anti-Americanism` per say. Unless, of course, you believe that violating the sovereignty of other nations, enforcing inhuman embargos - just one of which that cost the lives of half a million Iraqi children, undermining legitimate governments in order to install military dictatorships and so on actually defines what `Americanism` means.

    Personally I would like to believe that such actions are actually a perversion of what the `real` American stands for, whatever the likes of McCain and Palin might say, and I know that many French people feel the same way.

    Hahaha, you are joking aren't you? France did not oppose the invasion of Iraq, it opposed doing so without a UN mandate. Had Bush and Blair not pushed ahead without UN support so quickly then the evidence suggests that within a few weeks of discussion the French would have come behind a UN Security Council Resolution which would have had the same effect.

    France has never had any dodgy dealings to rival the US in recent history. Not Elf and fighter jets, nor its dubious agreements with the Baath party regime for oil exploration, nor its exploitation of the Oil for Food.

    "The local radio station even plays French-language Country and Western songs!"

    You prove my point - French language quotas on radio are a prime example of the loathe/obsession duality. On one hand obsessed with american vitality, on the other obsessed with its deleterious effect on France and its culture.
  • dennisn wrote:
    not to many Americans have the time or the inclination to worry about or hate the French or whomever. Why would we do this and to what end?
    I don`t know what you mean exactly by `too many`, but from the Bush administration threatening to `make the French pay` for not supporting the US`s illegal invasion of Iraq* to disciples of Armstrong posting such gems as GO, LANCE, GO!!! that ball cancer surviving bastard is a model american Fuck the French! there is plenty of evidence that anti-French attitudes are common in the US. Just try doing a search for key terms such as `Screw the French`, `Fuck the French` and so on. Add `Armstrong` to get the cycling angle. There is also plenty of much more scary anti-French xenophobia to be found on all those right wing/ Republican blogs and forums you have over there.

    *http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2003/apr/24/politics.iraq
  • leguape wrote:
    Hahaha, you are joking aren't you?
    Perhaps you should change your name to `Francophobe`....

    In reality, prior to the invasion of Iraq, France probably stood up to the US more than any other country.* This was a marked contrast to the way the UK rolled over in the hope of currying favour with the US. Oh, how I laughed when Bush refused to support Blair on the issue of climate change in return, saying there was `no quid pro quo`...

    And can France really be criticised for simply believing in the importance of acting only though the auspices of the UN? Unfortunately the UN is an organisation that the US clearly regards as having no say over how it conducts it`s affairs...

    * http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2003/ap ... itics.iraq