Motor bikes in Bus Lanes - Boris!

attica

I'v eheard of plenty of instances of buses and HGVs killing cyclists, but none so far of motorcycles killing motorcyclists, obviously I stand to be corrected, but I can't help feeling you're getting this aa little out of proportion.

Do you people ride exclusively in bus lanes?

el_presidente

Jen J wrote:

el_presidente wrote:

Jen J wrote:

W1 wrote:

You're a better man than me then - I strongly feel that there will be a number of fatal accidents due to this change in policy. Segregating cyclists (circa 10 mph) away from fast moving traffic keeps them safer- mixing in high performance sports bikes (0-60 mph in 3 seconds?) and unqualified moped riders is a recipe for serious accidents. Allowing this change is, IMO, nothing short of gross negligence.

I do hope you're wrong, but if you are right, how many fatal accidents will it take for them to decide it's a bad idea?

At what point does killing people become unacceptable?

Pretty much never when it comes to traffic laws

But surely if/when the fatal accidents start happening, the decision makers need to shoulder some responsibility, rather than just blame driver error.

3000 people are killed on the roads every year. Nobody cares.

lost_in_thought

Attica wrote:

I'v eheard of plenty of instances of buses and HGVs killing cyclists, but none so far of motorcycles killing motorcyclists, obviously I stand to be corrected, but I can't help feeling you're getting this aa little out of proportion.

Do you people ride exclusively in bus lanes?

For me, as W1 says, the bus lanes I ride in are a bit of a safe haven, I only have to worry about buses and other cyclists, and can see where cars are likely to turn across me, so can turn down the spidey senses to light tingle.

Motorbikes, and especially the moped couriers with only a CBT to their name, often pass too close, and fast, especially if they've managed to find a lane with only a cyclist in it, and also seem to have no qualms about undertaking which I find very perturbing.

I'm only speaking from experience, mind you, but I wouldn't want motorbikes in the bus lane.

However, it seems to be going ahead anyway.

Big Red S

Jen J wrote:

I do hope you're wrong, but if you are right, how many fatal accidents will it take for them to decide it's a bad idea?

Presumably the apparent lack of fatal accidents on the current 'experiments' are what made them decide this trial is a good idea.

Big Red S

lost_in_thought wrote:

Motorbikes, and especially the moped couriers with only a CBT to their name, often pass too close, and fast, especially if they've managed to find a lane with only a cyclist in it, and also seem to have no qualms about undertaking which I find very perturbing.

They, and pizza delivery terrorists, ride incredibly badly.

I still don't understand how someone can earn their living doing something they're not in possession of a full license for.

Big Red S

W1 wrote:

The key difference being that once they are "allowed" in bus lanes, I think that motorbikes will be much less deferential to cyclists. At the moment if we are in their way in a bus lane, it's because they are acting illegally. Once it's not illegal, I think we will see a lot more aggression from bikers, as we are "holding them up".

On the other hand, the proportion of law-abiding motorcyclists in bus lanes, as against law-ignoring ones, will increase.

W1

Big Red S wrote:

W1 wrote:

The key difference being that once they are "allowed" in bus lanes, I think that motorbikes will be much less deferential to cyclists. At the moment if we are in their way in a bus lane, it's because they are acting illegally. Once it's not illegal, I think we will see a lot more aggression from bikers, as we are "holding them up".

On the other hand, the proportion of law-abiding motorcyclists in bus lanes, as against law-ignoring ones, will increase.

Please excuse my ignorance, but I can't grasp the point you're making. The fact that they are law abiding or not is fairly irrelevant to the potential problems they cause (with the caveat I mentioned about attitude). Just making something legal does not necessarily remove the associated problems.

I'd rather have a handful of illegal bikes in the bus lanes, who generally feel obliged to defer to legal traffic, than hundreds of bikers racing down the bus lanes under their new "legal" rights, cutting up cyclists or passing very closely, at a substantial speed differential.

Big Red S

W1 wrote:

Big Red S wrote:

W1 wrote:

The key difference being that once they are "allowed" in bus lanes, I think that motorbikes will be much less deferential to cyclists. At the moment if we are in their way in a bus lane, it's because they are acting illegally. Once it's not illegal, I think we will see a lot more aggression from bikers, as we are "holding them up".

On the other hand, the proportion of law-abiding motorcyclists in bus lanes, as against law-ignoring ones, will increase.

Please excuse my ignorance, but I can't grasp the point you're making. The fact that they are law abiding or not is fairly irrelevant to the potential problems they cause (with the caveat I mentioned about attitude). Just making something legal does not necessarily remove the associated problems.

I'd rather have a handful of illegal bikes in the bus lanes, who generally feel obliged to defer to legal traffic, than hundreds of bikers racing down the bus lanes under their new "legal" rights, cutting up cyclists or passing very closely, at a substantial speed differential.

A motorcyclist who rides legally isn't going o be "racing down the bus lanes under their new "legal" rights, cutting up cyclists or passing very closely, at a substantial speed differential" is the bulk of my point.

The fact that I don't recall having been exposed to motorcyclists undertaking at speed in a bus lane does weaken my point, I'll admit.

W1

Big Red S wrote:

W1 wrote:

Big Red S wrote:

W1 wrote:

The key difference being that once they are "allowed" in bus lanes, I think that motorbikes will be much less deferential to cyclists. At the moment if we are in their way in a bus lane, it's because they are acting illegally. Once it's not illegal, I think we will see a lot more aggression from bikers, as we are "holding them up".

On the other hand, the proportion of law-abiding motorcyclists in bus lanes, as against law-ignoring ones, will increase.

Please excuse my ignorance, but I can't grasp the point you're making. The fact that they are law abiding or not is fairly irrelevant to the potential problems they cause (with the caveat I mentioned about attitude). Just making something legal does not necessarily remove the associated problems.

I'd rather have a handful of illegal bikes in the bus lanes, who generally feel obliged to defer to legal traffic, than hundreds of bikers racing down the bus lanes under their new "legal" rights, cutting up cyclists or passing very closely, at a substantial speed differential.

A motorcyclist who rides legally isn't going o be "racing down the bus lanes under their new "legal" rights, cutting up cyclists or passing very closely, at a substantial speed differential" is the bulk of my point.

The fact that I don't recall having been exposed to motorcyclists undertaking at speed in a bus lane does weaken my point, I'll admit.

Understood - your point being that at those riders who don't ride in the bus lanes at the moment are, by default, better riders and would be preferable companions for us. My experience is that riders who perhaps wouldn't dream of using the bus lanes are quite happy engage in otherwise dangerous over/under taking. Maybe that's because there are bus lane cameras.....

Clever Pun

W1 wrote:

Big Red S wrote:

W1 wrote:

The key difference being that once they are "allowed" in bus lanes, I think that motorbikes will be much less deferential to cyclists. At the moment if we are in their way in a bus lane, it's because they are acting illegally. Once it's not illegal, I think we will see a lot more aggression from bikers, as we are "holding them up".

On the other hand, the proportion of law-abiding motorcyclists in bus lanes, as against law-ignoring ones, will increase.

Please excuse my ignorance, but I can't grasp the point you're making. The fact that they are law abiding or not is fairly irrelevant to the potential problems they cause (with the caveat I mentioned about attitude). Just making something legal does not necessarily remove the associated problems.

I'd rather have a handful of illegal bikes in the bus lanes, who generally feel obliged to defer to legal traffic, than hundreds of bikers racing down the bus lanes under their new "legal" rights, cutting up cyclists or passing very closely, at a substantial speed differential.

Have you ever ridden with motorcyclists in bus lanes or is this po faced conjecture?

the speed limit is 30 in most bus laned areas correct? I would expect a cyclist to be doing 15mph plus in a bus lane.

Motorcyclists are a lot more observant than our 4 wheeled friends... you might get the occasional tool sure but that type of person also drives buses and taxis. So I can't really see if you're riding in a straight line where the problem is. I've used the mixed bus/taxi/motorcylce/bike lanes and find 99% of bikes to be absolutely fine and very courteous there's a tonne of space why not let them use it.

W1

Clever Pun wrote:

W1 wrote:

Big Red S wrote:

W1 wrote:

The key difference being that once they are "allowed" in bus lanes, I think that motorbikes will be much less deferential to cyclists. At the moment if we are in their way in a bus lane, it's because they are acting illegally. Once it's not illegal, I think we will see a lot more aggression from bikers, as we are "holding them up".

On the other hand, the proportion of law-abiding motorcyclists in bus lanes, as against law-ignoring ones, will increase.

Please excuse my ignorance, but I can't grasp the point you're making. The fact that they are law abiding or not is fairly irrelevant to the potential problems they cause (with the caveat I mentioned about attitude). Just making something legal does not necessarily remove the associated problems.

I'd rather have a handful of illegal bikes in the bus lanes, who generally feel obliged to defer to legal traffic, than hundreds of bikers racing down the bus lanes under their new "legal" rights, cutting up cyclists or passing very closely, at a substantial speed differential.

Have you ever ridden with motorcyclists in bus lanes or is this po faced conjecture?

the speed limit is 30 in most bus laned areas correct? I would expect a cyclist to be doing 15mph plus in a bus lane.

Motorcyclists are a lot more observant than our 4 wheeled friends... you might get the occasional tool sure but that type of person also drives buses and taxis. So I can't really see if you're riding in a straight line where the problem is. I've used the mixed bus/taxi/motorcylce/bike lanes and find 99% of bikes to be absolutely fine and very courteous there's a tonne of space why not let them use it.

I ride daily in lanes which are also used by motorbikes (for example, a dual carriageway which has narrow lanes and therefore the cars take the right lane and the cyclists and motorbikes take the left) - in my opinion, and from mine (and others) experience, sharing lanes with bikes can be particularly unnerving for reasons outlined already. It is much harder to control the actions of a bike behind you than a car, they go for gaps which cars wouldn't consider and are harder to see.

I wouldn't expect a cyclist to do at least 15mph in exactly the same way that I wouldn't expect motorbikes to obey the 30mph limit. A cyclist could be doing 5mph and a quick sports bike could be doing 60mph in 3 seconds.

Again, in my opinion, there is not "a tonne of space" in a bus lane, especially when overtaking other bikes or taking the primary road position at junctions. This is when the safety of a bus lanes comes into it's own - safety which will no longer exist if there is much faster traffic sharing the lanes.

biondino

There is a counter-argument some of you are missing, which is that the bad 2-wheel drivers may well have far fewer opportunities to drive badly - which largely involves dumb filtering and the like - if they're allowed in clear, traffic-free bus lanes.

There are already fatal accident involving motorcycles, many more than those involving cyclists, so trying to reduce these figures AND reduce congestion and encourage safer two-wheel commuting is all laudable. Of course there is an as yet unproven suggestion that cyclists may become more at risk, but personally I suspect things won't get much more dangerous.

In a few years time the phrase "bus lane" will be obsolete and some kind of "priority route" will replace it, with allowances for various classes of transport relating to the particular location and conditions. Perhaps this is the move which will make it reality.

Finally, I don't remember having ever been undertaken by a motorbike either. When does it happen and what is your (i.e. the cyclist's) road position? Primary? Secondary? Over the right of the lane for some reason?

always_tyred

Has anyone pointed out yet that we share the non-bus laned roads with motorcyclists already and that there doesn't appear to be a problem? Why would there uniquely be a problem in bus lanes?
(Note - this might have already been said but I can't be arthed to read the thread, sorry)

I find that motorcyclists are, like us, prone to getting killed, but aren't well known for causing accidents themselves. They cause irritation by "weaving in and out dangerously" but other than being pulled out on and so forth, I'm not aware that they are actually anything other than irritating.

They ARE uniquely gifted at getting themselves killed on remote stretches of highland A-roads, but that's a different thing entirely.

lost_in_thought

Clever Pun wrote:

the speed limit is 30 in most bus laned areas correct? I would expect a cyclist to be doing 15mph plus in a bus lane.

Motorcyclists are a lot more observant than our 4 wheeled friends... you might get the occasional tool sure but that type of person also drives buses and taxis. So I can't really see if you're riding in a straight line where the problem is. I've used the mixed bus/taxi/motorcylce/bike lanes and find 99% of bikes to be absolutely fine and very courteous there's a tonne of space why not let them use it.

Agreed on your first point, but the biker would still be travelling at double the speed of the cyclist.

And I am sure that bikers are more observant, they have to be, but there are a good quantity, the couriers and delivery drivers already mentioned for example, who drive like prats a lot of the time. And there's also the racer boy who'll accelerate to as fast as he can go given a bit of open space, and so on.

It's perhaps also the case that bikers see a smaller gap as passable without slowing than the cyclist on the edge of said gap would expect - especially if the biker is undertaking. This can be rather surprisung to say the least.

I'm sure that most bikers are great, but it's the london-based prats I'm worried about, as detailed above.

EDIT: To clarify on the undertaking, I am lucky enough to have a lot of two-lane roads on my route, which I occasionally have to be in the primary in the left lane, in order to change to the right lane or to avoid upcoming cars - I like to assert my position in advance. In this situation I have been undertaken by motorbikes/scooters often enough for it to be something I take steps to ensure doesn't cause me an accident.

Greg T

Here's an observation....

Other than a number of "I wasn't expecting that" sudden motorbikes in my "safe" outside space appearances I've never had a near miss with a Motobike or scooter.......

With cars = lots

I will no doubt get clouted by a Hells Angel on the way home.

Big Red S

lost_in_thought wrote:

Clever Pun wrote:

the speed limit is 30 in most bus laned areas correct? I would expect a cyclist to be doing 15mph plus in a bus lane.

Motorcyclists are a lot more observant than our 4 wheeled friends... you might get the occasional tool sure but that type of person also drives buses and taxis. So I can't really see if you're riding in a straight line where the problem is. I've used the mixed bus/taxi/motorcylce/bike lanes and find 99% of bikes to be absolutely fine and very courteous there's a tonne of space why not let them use it.

Agreed on your first point, but the biker would still be travelling at double the speed of the cyclist.

Not necessarily. If you're riding down the side of stationary traffic at 30mph, sod's law dictates that someone will walk out of that queue on their phone right into your path. 20mph is much more realistic in that situation.
If the traffic's moving much more than 20mph, you might as well be in it.

You've also got to remember that a motorcyclist approaching a bike from behind is as worried about the bike making a sudden, unsignalled move into an area they've not checked is clear (cyclists are _really_ bad at this) as the cyclist is about being overtaken by a motorbike going four times as fast as they are.

lost_in_thought

Greg T wrote:

Here's an observation....

Other than a number of "I wasn't expecting that" sudden motorbikes in my "safe" outside space appearances I've never had a near miss with a Motobike or scooter.......

With cars = lots

I will no doubt get clouted by a Hells Angel on the way home.

I've had a couple of occasions where I've hit the anchors due to motorbikes, but yes, it's more the 'bl**dy hell that was rather close' that annoys me.

And Big Red S, I bow to your superior knowledge on the subject - not a biker myself!

Nonetheless, a lot of them seem to pass too fast and too close.

Saying that, you don't remember the ones that cause you no bother... :oops:

Big Red S

lost_in_thought wrote:

And Big Red S, I bow to your superior knowledge on the subject - not a biker myself!

This is something that I think is a bit of a problem in the multi-vehicular London (and, only ever using things with two wheels, I'm hardly any good at it) - It's been highlighted on here recently with the HGV discussions, where people have said about how they didn't realise just how little HGV drivers can see.
In an ideal world, every driver/rider would spend *some* time on each mode of transport to understand the difficulties they have. When out riding on motorbikes, there's a marked difference between the way the HGV drivers ride and the people like me who've always balanced everywhere.

As a cyclist and motorcyclist, I'm probably more cyclist-friendly than most (never using ASLs, keeping to the sides of gaps I won't fit down but a cyclist might), but probably a complete cunt to everyone else...

attica

Always Tyred wrote:

Has anyone pointed out yet that we share the non-bus laned roads with motorcyclists already and that there doesn't appear to be a problem? Why would there uniquely be a problem in bus lanes?
(Note - this might have already been said but I can't be arthed to read the thread, sorry

That was the point I was trying to make when I said

Do you people ride exclusively in bus lanes?

But perhaps I was being a little too subtle

always_tyred

Attica wrote:

Always Tyred wrote:

Has anyone pointed out yet that we share the non-bus laned roads with motorcyclists already and that there doesn't appear to be a problem? Why would there uniquely be a problem in bus lanes?
(Note - this might have already been said but I can't be arthed to read the thread, sorry

That was the point I was trying to make when I said

Do you people ride exclusively in bus lanes?

But perhaps I was being a little too subtle

Disambiguation is a service I am happy to provide.

attica

AT

What does Disambiguation mean?

W1

Greg T wrote:

Here's an observation....

Other than a number of "I wasn't expecting that" sudden motorbikes in my "safe" outside space appearances I've never had a near miss with a Motobike or scooter.......

With cars = lots

I will no doubt get clouted by a Hells Angel on the way home.

I would count those moments as near misses, just as much as if it were a car which had passed me that closely.

snooks

I get a shock when I'm buzzed at speed from a motorbike, but I don't have a problem sharing bus lanes with them as long as there are speed cameras in the bus lanes.

Having a courier (yep it's always a courier) buzz past at 40 mph in a bus lane with a pavement on one side and a line of stationary cars on the other isn't my idea of fun