Motor bikes in Bus Lanes - Boris!

saveswalking

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7692540.stm

always_tyred

Don't they just use them anyway?

lost_in_thought

Hmmmm, I can see the logic in this, but motorbikes use all the cycle lanes, bus lanes and ASLs on my commute anyway. The only problem is that they seem to use them at as high a speed as they can, and undertake... :shock:

dirk_van_gently

Being a cyclist and a motorcyclist, I can't see a problem with this.
Sounds like the cycling zealots wanting it all their own way, let's not alienate fellow 2 wheeled users.

ride_whenever

This is a bit odd, is boris planning on removing all the rules one by one, just to see what happens and reduce crime to previously unheard of levels.

attica

We've covered this one before, there's a fairly negative reaction from those who've never tried it, but here in Bristol we've shared the space with motorbikes, buses and taxis for some time now.

I have no problem with this at all as motorcyclists are generally quite well behaved compared to the rest of the road users, they also ride defensively like us, because they're nearly as vulnerable as us. Obviously there will be a percentage of numpties, but think how many cyclist numpties there are out there too. RLJers anybody?

Motorcyclists deserve a safe haven as much as us.

hisoka

Interesting idea, I would support it if legal I believe I just don't like it when it is breaking the law therefore I don't expect it, if I was to expect it legally then I wouldn't see issue I think.

dirk_van_gently

Attica wrote:

.. they also ride defensively like us, because they're nearly as vulnerable as us. .

Nearly?

attica

Dirk Van Gently wrote:

Nearly?

Better clothing for tarmac surfing and helmets that don't cause rotational injury, blah blah rhubarb rhubarb.

To be honest I only put the word "nearly" in in an attempt to avoid an argument, as I'd say it's possible to call it from either side. Having a bike land on you is far preferable to having a motorbike land on you for instance!

I take it from your Avatar that you ride a motorbike as well as a bike? What's your opinion?

symo

Great news, motorcyclists tend to be a bit more respectful as they are just as vulnerable, except they can get kncked under their bikes which can weigh up to 160kg.

lost_in_thought

They are probably more respectful than cars, I just object to the unnecessary speed - most of the routes I cycle on are 30mph speed limits, I'm usually on open road at about 23mph, and they go past like I'm cycling backwards.

I worry about what might happen if I try to avoid a pothole or something.

Furthermore I object to their undertaking me.

But as someone said, you remember the numpties...

oxenhoper

You tend to find with motorcyclists that they are focused on the road... so thats why speeds tend to creep up... after all they are just as bothered about pot holes, diesel and bad roads and drivers just as much as us... they don't have there attention distracted by.. the radio.. talking to a passenger.. mobile phone etc..

chuckcork

Having gone from Motorcycling to cycling I would say the m'bikers are asking for trouble using bus lanes. Drivers expect buses to be in them, and won't look for anything else, just as pedestrians don't see cyclists moving on cycle lanes when the rest of the traffic has stopped.

Expect an increase in injuries among motorcyclists if it becomes common practice.

Clever Pun

Dirk Van Gently wrote:

Being a cyclist and a motorcyclist, I can't see a problem with this.
Sounds like the cycling zealots wanting it all their own way, let's not alienate fellow 2 wheeled users.

Agreed, having used the A13 with motorcyclists for a couple of months it's fine, they're easier to live with than cabs or buses

dirk_van_gently

Attica wrote:

I take it from your Avatar that you ride a motorbike as well as a bike? What's your opinion?

Yes I do, generallyI don't feel that either activity is more or less safe than the other. From the motorcycling point of view, speeds are higher, a lot higher, so as a "general" rule injuries would most likely be worse. Immense number of pro's and con's either way, so not really worth an in depth analysis, because of the potential for a 75 page thread discussion, with no conclusion, and many assumptions and untruths.

We are ALL road users, whether car driver, lorry driver, motorcyclist, cyclist, pedestrian etc.
Unfortunately we do seem to have developed into a
nation of narcissistic opera singers (Me, Me, Me, Me, Me, Me, Me, Me,) :-)

pintoo

I have to agree that motorcyclists tend to be amongst the best road users. I took my motorcycle test 10 years after I passed my car test. I'm a very safe driver, but the motorcycle training really improved my all round road use. Motorcyclists are at a slight advantage to cyclists in that we can just twist the right hand and speed out of the way of a lot of trouble. As for speed, I failed my first bike test because the tester deemed I was too slow at accelerating away from the lights (it just happened to be my first time riding in the rain so I was a little cautious). Bikers are trained to nail 30mph as fast as safely possible.

One difference between motorcyclists and cyclists is that the former all have a healthy regard for eachother. Most cyclists give eachother a wave as they pass eachother, only for sharing a type of transport. Cyclists aren't nearly as friendly towards eachother.

Whatever we drive, we need to respect other road users. I don't mind for one second, sharing space with motorcyclists. I worry more about scooterists because they don't have anywhere near as much training (1 day CBT which is hardly more than getting to know the controls - not defensive riding) or courtesy. So, before I give them all an open welcome to use cycle lanes etc, I would like to see more training given to scooterists.

I also believe than anyone with a licence to drive a motorised vehicle should be made to re-take their test every 15 years. Bad habits shouldn't be allowed to fester and people should know that driving is a privilege, not a right. The only downside to this idea is that the Govt. would no doubt make it pointlessly expensive and dress it up as a green tax.

Bassjunkieuk

Having regularly used the A23 for the last couple of years where this was being trialled I can say that I haven't noticed any problems with it.
The bus lane is plenty wide enough for me and a motorbike to co-exist in and I'd trust a motorbike rider much more then other drivers of motorized vehicles to notice me.

At least if they are allowed to use the bus lanes legally now we won't have the situation where they swerve in and out of the left hand traffic lane and the right side of the bus lane, which can usually cause more problems as I tend to ride in primary when in the bus lane, pulling over if I hear a bus behind me.

giltkid

I'm all for sharing the lanes with motorcycles - such a bloody pity we have to share them with buses

attica

Dirk Van Gently wrote:

Attica wrote:

I take it from your Avatar that you ride a motorbike as well as a bike? What's your opinion?

Yes I do, generallyI don't feel that either activity is more or less safe than the other. From the motorcycling point of view, speeds are higher, a lot higher, so as a "general" rule injuries would most likely be worse. Immense number of pro's and con's either way, so not really worth an in depth analysis, because of the potential for a 75 page thread discussion, with no conclusion, and many assumptions and untruths.

We are ALL road users, whether car driver, lorry driver, motorcyclist, cyclist, pedestrian etc.
Unfortunately we do seem to have developed into a
nation of narcissistic opera singers (Me, Me, Me, Me, Me, Me, Me, Me,) :-)

Well put sir.

Another phrase , apart from "me, me, me", that springs to mind is "hurry up and wait" everyone seems to be in a desperate rush to get to the back of the next queue.

gtvlusso

Good on you Boris....finally.

artaxerxes

At least in my experience I've never had a problem with London buses or motorcycles (apart from the odd airhead Vespa rider). Its usually coaches, HGVs and cars that give me grief.

dirk_van_gently

Attica wrote:

Well put sir..

:oops: I do have my moments

Attica wrote:

"hurry up and wait"

That is SO true, I blame Thatcher! then again I blame her for pretty much everything

W1

My experience when sharing lanes (e.g. on the Embankment) with bikes is that they pass very close, and often very quickly.

Put simply, bus lanes provide a refuge for cyclists, where they can have a substantial amount of "safe" space, can overtake eachother safely and (when in primary) can be sure there will be nothing other than a fellow cyclist coming past - at a much more similar pace than that of a motorbike. This makes me very nervous indeed.

lost_in_thought

W1 wrote:

My experience when sharing lanes (e.g. on the Embankment) with bikes is that they pass very close, and often very quickly.

Put simply, bus lanes provide a refuge for cyclists, where they can have a substantial amount of "safe" space, can overtake eachother safely and (when in primary) can be sure there will be nothing other than a fellow cyclist coming past - at a much more similar pace than that of a motorbike. This makes me very nervous indeed.

+1.

Thanks for summing up exactly what I think, put better than I could!

Big Red S

W1 wrote:

Put simply, bus lanes provide a refuge for cyclists, where they can have a substantial amount of "safe" space, can overtake eachother safely and (when in primary) can be sure there will be nothing other than a fellow cyclist coming past - at a much more similar pace than that of a motorbike. This makes me very nervous indeed.

IME, the kind of motorcyclists who'd pass like that would do so in a bus lane whether they were allowed in it or not.
From what I gather, there is a far greater desire for riding sensibly, safely and courteously amongst motorcyclists than for driving the same amongst car drivers.

Greg T

W1 wrote:

My experience when sharing lanes (e.g. on the Embankment) with bikes is that they pass very close, and often very quickly.

This is my experience also.

Motorbikes can go for the gap that you are leaving on the outside as your buffer zone. It can be a sudden surprise when a fast moving bike cuts in.

That having been said I'm happy to see how it goes.....

W1

Big Red S wrote:

W1 wrote:

Put simply, bus lanes provide a refuge for cyclists, where they can have a substantial amount of "safe" space, can overtake eachother safely and (when in primary) can be sure there will be nothing other than a fellow cyclist coming past - at a much more similar pace than that of a motorbike. This makes me very nervous indeed.

IME, the kind of motorcyclists who'd pass like that would do so in a bus lane whether they were allowed in it or not.
From what I gather, there is a far greater desire for riding sensibly, safely and courteously amongst motorcyclists than for driving the same amongst car drivers.

The key difference being that once they are "allowed" in bus lanes, I think that motorbikes will be much less deferential to cyclists. At the moment if we are in their way in a bus lane, it's because they are acting illegally. Once it's not illegal, I think we will see a lot more aggression from bikers, as we are "holding them up".

W1

Greg T wrote:

W1 wrote:

My experience when sharing lanes (e.g. on the Embankment) with bikes is that they pass very close, and often very quickly.

This is my experience also.

Motorbikes can go for the gap that you are leaving on the outside as your buffer zone. It can be a sudden surprise when a fast moving bike cuts in.

That having been said I'm happy to see how it goes.....

You're a better man than me then - I strongly feel that there will be a number of fatal accidents due to this change in policy. Segregating cyclists (circa 10 mph) away from fast moving traffic keeps them safer- mixing in high performance sports bikes (0-60 mph in 3 seconds?) and unqualified moped riders is a recipe for serious accidents. Allowing this change is, IMO, nothing short of gross negligence.

Edited to add - of course I don't cycle at 10mph, I'm churning like a kettle, lurking on my racked'n'guarded vicars bike and scalping the fixies along the Millbank wind tunnel and Col du Putney Bridge. I do at least 25 mph at all times. Obviously.

Jen J

W1 wrote:

You're a better man than me then - I strongly feel that there will be a number of fatal accidents due to this change in policy. Segregating cyclists (circa 10 mph) away from fast moving traffic keeps them safer- mixing in high performance sports bikes (0-60 mph in 3 seconds?) and unqualified moped riders is a recipe for serious accidents. Allowing this change is, IMO, nothing short of gross negligence.

I do hope you're wrong, but if you are right, how many fatal accidents will it take for them to decide it's a bad idea?

At what point does killing people become unacceptable?

el_presidente

Jen J wrote:

W1 wrote:

You're a better man than me then - I strongly feel that there will be a number of fatal accidents due to this change in policy. Segregating cyclists (circa 10 mph) away from fast moving traffic keeps them safer- mixing in high performance sports bikes (0-60 mph in 3 seconds?) and unqualified moped riders is a recipe for serious accidents. Allowing this change is, IMO, nothing short of gross negligence.

I do hope you're wrong, but if you are right, how many fatal accidents will it take for them to decide it's a bad idea?

At what point does killing people become unacceptable?

Pretty much never when it comes to traffic laws

Jen J

el_presidente wrote:

Jen J wrote:

W1 wrote:

You're a better man than me then - I strongly feel that there will be a number of fatal accidents due to this change in policy. Segregating cyclists (circa 10 mph) away from fast moving traffic keeps them safer- mixing in high performance sports bikes (0-60 mph in 3 seconds?) and unqualified moped riders is a recipe for serious accidents. Allowing this change is, IMO, nothing short of gross negligence.

I do hope you're wrong, but if you are right, how many fatal accidents will it take for them to decide it's a bad idea?

At what point does killing people become unacceptable?

Pretty much never when it comes to traffic laws

But surely if/when the fatal accidents start happening, the decision makers need to shoulder some responsibility, rather than just blame driver error.