Campag vs Shimano - Betamax vs VHS?
linsen
Posts: 1,959
For those old enough to remember video recorders.
Discuss
Discuss
Emerging from under a big black cloud. All help welcome
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Comments
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linsen wrote:For those old enough to remember video recorders.
Discuss
Had a very brief discussion about these on my running site earlier today. Sure enough, someone chipped in saying that had betamax gears...0 -
I still have a VHS, under the DVD recorder which is under the Sky box. You never know when you might stumble on a old video cassette with had been "filed away" for whatever innocent reason
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I believe Betamax (Sony) had better sound quality, but no films. Which lead VHS (JVC) to clean up.0 -
VHS vs Betamax...Betamax collapsed as a format because its creators (Sony) refused to licence it for p*rnogaphy, VHS won. In the modern version fight Blueray vs HD the same thing is already happening.
Shimano vs Campag a slightly different equation), the age old phrase is Shimano wears out Campag wears in. So hands up who wants to wait 4-5 years for their groupset to start working properly...and hands up also who won't want to buy the latest (by then 12 speed) version in 4-5 years time...anyone anyone??? No I didn't think so, so do yourself a favour and buy the stuff that works best straight away...Shimano!
ithankyouRoadie FCN: 3
Fixed FCN: 60 -
linsen wrote:For those old enough to remember video recorders.
Discuss
Beta-what?
HD-DVD versus Blu-Ray?
Only joking. Sony are clearly winning that more recent battle - mind you after the mini-disc fiasco they need something to work.
On the Shimano vs Campag, clearly I have no idea...0 -
Nor me, but my husband is in the campag corner and was interested..
I'm delighted to have gears that actually work these days....Emerging from under a big black cloud. All help welcome0 -
I remember Betamax, my Dad had it. What was the point of it?
It reminds me of Blue Ray and HD DVD.
Both Blue Ray and VHS pretty much won becuase they had the support of the porn industry - VHS was the preferred format for porn film makers and now porn makers have comitted to Blue Ray... I know this because I read an article about it on www.newsarama.com a comic book website, go figure!
SO if Campag or Shimano can somehow find a way to link their products to the porn industry or just get a load of porn stars to model their groupsets (and I've just realised that I have an inner photographer - Snooks can we have a concept please!?) it would surely be the kiss of death for the other company.
Just think of the film names 'A man named Dura-Ace' or 'Beckys Super 11 Record!'
Linsen, bet you wished you never asked the question......Food Chain number = 4
A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game0 -
hmmEmerging from under a big black cloud. All help welcome0
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From techy debate to porn in a few easy steps.
Perhaps that shouldn't be a surprise...;)0 -
perhaps not.
I'm guessing that this lot aren't quite so brave in the flesh
Or at least hoping.....Emerging from under a big black cloud. All help welcome0 -
Jen J wrote:From techy debate to porn in a few easy steps.
Perhaps that shouldn't be a surprise...;)
At least I made SOME attempt to answer the Shim/Cam question as well.Roadie FCN: 3
Fixed FCN: 60 -
Campag interest me because they look special. In the same way that an Alpha Romeo is both a beatiful and tempremental car that won't work far more than it does. But when it does its like achieving Nirvana, I envision campag, being Italian, working in the same way.
The real question is: Like Alpha Romeo drivers, are you passionate enough to fall in love with the good and bad that is Campag?
Some would argue (like those three on Top Gear) that its the fact that it doesn't always work that makes Alpha Romeo's so beautiful and full of characters. Could you say the same for Campag?lost_in_thought wrote:mind you after the mini-disc fiasco they need something to work.
I thought mini-discs were fantastic. Only thing missing was the ability to load multiple-formats of data on them like a floppy disc/CD but smaller. That said MP3 players were always going to supass them.
Linsen and others, don't worry I can operate in an acceptable socialable manner and generally don't talk sex with people I've just first met (in the real world)... Not in great detail in any case unless asked or if everyone is dunk...Food Chain number = 4
A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game0 -
DonDaddyD wrote:
The real question is: Like Alpha Romeo drivers, are you passionate enough to fall in love with the good and bad that is Campag?
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There is no bad. Campag is fantastic.
Also to the BlueRay V HD people. That battle finished a few months ago I'm afraid, Toshiba threw in the towel.- 2023 Vielo V+1
- 2022 Canyon Aeroad CFR
- 2020 Canyon Ultimate CF SLX
- Strava
- On the Strand
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DonDaddyD wrote:Campag interest me because they look special. In the same way that an Alpha Romeo is both a beatiful and tempremental car that won't work far more than it does. But when it does its like achieving Nirvana, I envision campag, being Italian, working in the same way.
The real question is: Like Alpha Romeo drivers, are you passionate enough to fall in love with the good and bad that is Campag?
Some would argue (like those three on Top Gear) that its the fact that it doesn't always work that makes Alpha Romeo's so beautiful and full of characters. Could you say the same for Campag?lost_in_thought wrote:mind you after the mini-disc fiasco they need something to work.
I thought mini-discs were fantastic. Only thing missing was the ability to load multiple-formats of data on them like a floppy disc/CD but smaller. That said MP3 players were always going to supass them.
Linsen and others, don't worry I can operate in an acceptable socialable manner and generally don't talk sex with people I've just first met (in the real world)... Not in great detail in any case unless asked or if everyone is dunk...
Is that some new kind of drug or something?Roadie FCN: 3
Fixed FCN: 60 -
I often wonder why some can't laugh on the Internet as they/I would in the real world. Its just sex (almost) everyone does it, they even make factual programmes about it. No point even trying to deny it.Littigator wrote:Jen J wrote:From techy debate to porn in a few easy steps.
Perhaps that shouldn't be a surprise...;)
At least I made SOME attempt to answer the Shim/Cam question as well.
*Time for me to prove my depths and maturity again*
From what I've learned the Shimano/Campag debate has gone on for decades and will continue to do so because it is more a matter of preference and not one of 'most suitable technology'. Any belief that one is better than the other is usually subjective and not objective. One wears out the other wears in. Some wouldn't even agree with that even if they did there are arguments as to the benefits of both.
It isn't as clear cut as the HD DVD/Blue Ray battle, which was all about most practical piece of technology. A standard Blue Disc can hold far more information than a HD DVD (Shimano could probably go to 11 speed if it wanted) - Blue Ray (which uses light at the blue end of the spectrum and can house more digital information due to this) is a step further in terms of technology than HD DVD that uses the tried and tested red light of the spectrum but the lens emits a shorter/wider beam to retrieve more information. - I'm sure there is more to this explanation but its Friday (end of day) I have neither the time or the brain power to get into it.
The Campag/Shimano battle is mostly not the same as Betamax and VHS because for the most part they were different types of technology that did the same thing.
Campag vs Shimano is more like Audi vs BMW. Ford vs Vauxhall, Porsche vs Ferrari et al. All the same product doing the same thing comparable delivery of service with a thin layer of product differentiation.
Campag could make a groupset that shifts like Dura-Ace if it wanted to and Shimano could do the same making the shifting of their groupsets like Campag. The reason they don't, I suspect has as much to do with product differentiation as anything else.
What I had to say about VHS, Blue Ray, Betamax and HD DVD regardless of topic (porn) is in fact factual. It was mostly porn that gave Betamax and HD DVD the kiss of death and any question regarding why they failed mostly can't avoid this fact.
But Campag/Shimano is like preferring the fries in Burger King over the ones in McDonalds.
After all that I now need beer.Food Chain number = 4
A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game0 -
jashburnham wrote:DonDaddyD wrote:
The real question is: Like Alpha Romeo drivers, are you passionate enough to fall in love with the good and bad that is Campag?
.
There is no bad. Campag is fantastic.
Of course there must be bad, you just love it too much to notice.Also to the BlueRay V HD people. That battle finished a few months ago I'm afraid, Toshiba threw in the towel.
Yes some time after the porn industry committed itself to Blue Ray.Food Chain number = 4
A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game0 -
I have Chorus and Ultegra and have no complaints with either. Campag shades it for me - shifting is just that bit crisper and I prefer the shape of the hoods. But that doesn't make Shimano bad - it's personal preference really.
- 2023 Vielo V+1
- 2022 Canyon Aeroad CFR
- 2020 Canyon Ultimate CF SLX
- Strava
- On the Strand
- Crown Stables
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I know nothing about campag but I do know about por..er. I mean the VHS v Betamax debate. It isn't quite as clear cut as suggested. While the P industry had a big impact on a segment of the market the big drawback with Betamax - and the big selling point for VHS was the length of recording time on the tapes. Betamax had better quality (though marginal on the TVs of the day) but could not run for more than an hour - often a lot less. People who bought video wanted to record and watch films. Know many sub-one hour films? So it was the length of the tape that did for Betamax more than the P industry. See, size DOES matter
Pain is only weakness leaving the body0 -
jashburnham wrote:I have Chorus and Ultegra and have no complaints with either. Campag shades it for me - shifting is just that bit crisper and I prefer the shape of the hoods. But that doesn't make Shimano bad - it's personal preference really.
have you ever had a Centaur groupset? What are your thoughts on that? If I got a Izoard it would have Centaur, what would be its Shimano equivilent?Food Chain number = 4
A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game0 -
The Chingford Skinhead wrote:I know nothing about campag but I do know about por..er. I mean the VHS v Betamax debate. It isn't quite as clear cut as suggested. While the P industry had a big impact on a segment of the market the big drawback with Betamax - and the big selling point for VHS was the length of recording time on the tapes. Betamax had better quality (though marginal on the TVs of the day) but could not run for more than an hour - often a lot less. People who bought video wanted to record and watch films. Know many sub-one hour films? So it was the length of the tape that did for Betamax more than the P industry. See, size DOES matter
The P industry couldn't record feature length fims with Betamax, which is why they went for VHS.... most audiences got bored and erm exhausted long before the end of the VHS tape... This I suppose demonstrating value for money...
Sorry couldn't resist.
I'll stop now.Food Chain number = 4
A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game0 -
I remember the battle between Betamax and VHS very clearly. I was living in Hong Kong, had just got married and we wanted a recorder. The options were very similarly priced and it took me some time to make my decision, The problem was that Betamax was of a higher quality, but there more films available on VHS. We plumped for VHS,
I do not think the comparison with Campag and Shimano is fair. The market place is big and diverse enough to support both. In retrospect, I wish I had gone for Campag at the beginning, but having equipped both bikes with Shimano, the cost of change is prohibitive.0 -
I saw some Betamax output and it was better than VHS.
Sony were always trying something new, if only to p--s off Phillips. In the early-mid 70s they tried to launch a 'compact' cassette which used 1/4inch tape like a reel-to-reel recorder. It was called 'Elcassette' or something and yes it did sound better than a simple cassette, but not as good as a reel-to-reel, and yes it needed a dedicated machine....the rest is literally history.
SACD as opposed to ordinary CD is another one.
Laser discs anybody?
:?Spring!
Singlespeeds in town rule.0 -
Sony's main motivation is in trying to change the standard, and in getting everyone to follow their standard. It makes money for them.
They're hardly the only ones doing this. Kodak is a similar offender. Roll film was replaced by the more convenient 35mm film canister in the mid 20th century. Since then, they produced cameras using '127' cartridges, and the later '110' cartridges, as well as disc film, and of course APS. They were always trying to get the consumer on to the newest format and buying their products, thus staying ahead of other companies.
Ironically, it's the 74 year old 35mm format that is the most commonly available film today.0 -
Sram?"Do not follow where the path may lead, Go instead where there is no path, and Leave a Trail."
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Honestly - i have had campag and shimano shod bikes since the early eighties. (and have one of each at the moment).
Betmax was the better format but price and marketing killed it.
Campag was traditionally seen as the High end gear used on pto tour. IT was expensive it was beautifully built - would last for ever and work ok.
Then out came the competition Suntour and Shimano where the big names from Japan.
Suntour maked exuisite looking gear using the lightest alloys, best bearing - it look the part and worked exceptionallly. It drew a group of enthuisestic followers. I loved wheels built on the old SUntour Superbe hubs they rolled forever and were as strong as.
Shimano was ok it didnt look particularly nice and worked about as well as campag but the rear mechs looked different to Campag. Then came mountain bikes and Shimano successfully levereaged onto that form of bike. It started developing indexing and the brought out their first indexed groupos. Cycling started to change - Suntour started to lose out at the top end. Campag stayed with the tried and true and Shimano developed indexed shifting. Then came eight speed clusters - the need for indexing was evident and Shimano had the advantage.
By the nineties campag killed off their old nouvo record stle derailluers and moved towards the ubiquitous slant parallelagram we have today. The had levers moved off the down tubes and became integrated with the brake lever (Shimano I think were first with it again). Campag was still playing catch up. By the time we got to nine speed campag and shimano were on par. To go to ten speed clusters they divereged but I get the impression this was more to do with marketing then engineering. (Edit Campag brought out their 10 speed aboput 3 years before Shimano)
Campag have now gone to 11 speed and shimano persisted and developed their electric shifting. (Campag was working on that about 10 years ago also). THe market will decide which will win.
I suspect that the 11 speed system is the obvious domain of electric servo gear shifters so maybe we will have a convergence of technology again in the future..
I dont ride the top of the line groupos anymore I have last years chorus /centuar on one biike and Ultegra on another. Both work faultlessly, and I am hard pressed to raise one over the other. In my opinion modern high end cycle gear is so well engineered and built that it comes down to personal bias and aesthetics to choose between them.0 -
DonDaddyD wrote:Campag interest me because they look special. In the same way that an Alpha Romeo is both a beatiful and tempremental car that won't work far more than it does. But when it does its like achieving Nirvana, I envision campag, being Italian, working in the same way.
The real question is: Like Alpha Romeo drivers, are you passionate enough to fall in love with the good and bad that is Campag?
Some would argue (like those three on Top Gear) that its the fact that it doesn't always work that makes Alpha Romeo's so beautiful and full of characters. Could you say the same for Campag?
Got to respond here, - I have done 80 000 miles in AlFa Romeos without breakdown apart from a clutch slave cylinder (a wear and tear thing that goes on all cars eventually) and a flat battery (which was the original one, and was 6 years old). The GTV and the V6 3L engine are things of beauty, and I would have fallen in love even if there was some bad, which there is not.lost_in_thought wrote:mind you after the mini-disc fiasco they need something to work.
ps: I use Shimano, I think it is good looking, but I am not in love with it.0 -
Betamax was better in quality, and the way the tape transport worked, making fast forward etc much better.
I understand the Blue Ray HD-DVD thing was largely influenced by the major film studios signing up with Blue Ray (and Sony is a major film producer too), so there was far more content available. Not sure about the porn assertions, has the smack of urban myth about it.0 -
On AlFas - they used to have character but now they are just another GM product wearing nice clothes.
An example is the engine in our car - A Vauxhall Astra (latest shape) 1.9CDTi 150bhp - the same engine is used in the Alfa and Saab - both Alfa and Saab don't handle any better (in fact Saabs handle worse), they aren't better made (Alfas still break down a lot, the Astra is suprisingly well made having been cack for years) but both cost a HUGE amount more. I tested the 147 GTA (3.2 litre 6 pot) when trying out cars and ended up getting a Golf R32 -the Alfa sounded nice, looked good but felt flimsey, handled poorly and I knew it would break down. I notice Alfas being driven very aggressively a lot - I wonder why?!
Anyway - onto groupsets - as Nicklouse mentioned - what about the MTB version of Shimano vs Campag - Shimano vs SRAM? Again both are similar, both work well but many strongly favour one or the other.0 -
Its not the same thing at all. Campag and Shimano have been battling it out for what - 30 years or more ?
SRAM is the surprise package for me. I'd written them off initially - but they do look very interesting now.0
