Liquigas running an anti-doping programme next year

iainf72

Vendor TBD

They were talking to ACE a month ago so I would guess that's who they're going for.

avoidingmyphd

hahaha

dave_1

iainf72 wrote:

Vendor TBD

They were talking to ACE a month ago so I would guess that's who they're going for.

Do you think it is a worthwhile idea? Look back at the past season of the 4 bigger teams who run such anti-doping programmes...??

iainf72

Depends how you look at it.

CSC clean? Snicker
Astana clean? Snicker
Columbia clean? Snicker
Garmin clean? Probably, they're fairly crappy (aside from the guy who's ridden for Bruyneel, Riis and Saiz curiously) so that would seem a good measure.

As a marketing exercise? Good move. Heck, Basso is even publishing his data on t'internet.

dave_1

iainf72 wrote:

Depends how you look at it.

CSC clean? Snicker
Astana clean? Snicker
Columbia clean? Snicker
Garmin clean? Probably, they're fairly crappy (aside from the guy who's ridden for Bruyneel, Riis and Saiz curiously) so that would seem a good measure.

As a marketing exercise? Good move. Heck, Basso is even publishing his data on t'internet.

Do you think it detered those teams from using cera?

iainf72

Only an idiot would use CERA.

DynEPO is where it's at.

Not detectable.

timoid.

Its dectable-ish. Just doesn't have criteria for what is a positive yet.

Didn't Ras dabble with this stuff?

dave_1

iainf72 wrote:

Only an idiot would use CERA.

DynEPO is where it's at.

Not detectable.

So, they were too scared to use it. They only developed the test by summer...nobody knew about it so how could accuse them of being idiots? They'd have been idiots if they'd taken it knowing it would be tested for. They didn't. DynEPO? No test at yet, really?

iainf72

I mean only an idiot would use CERA now.

Yep, DynEPO still doesn't have a test. That Italian doping expert guy recently said that's what Armstrong will probably be using.

dave_1

iainf72 wrote:

I mean only an idiot would use CERA now.

Yep, DynEPO still doesn't have a test. That Italian doping expert guy recently said that's what Armstrong will probably be using.

But do you think the anti-doping programmes within those teams detered those teams from using cera in 08?

timoid.

iainf72 wrote:

I mean only an idiot would use CERA now.

Yep, DynEPO still doesn't have a test. That Italian doping expert guy recently said that's what Armstrong will probably be using.

Which guy. Can you send a link?

iainf72

French guy actually.

http://www.gazzetta.it/Ciclismo/Primo_P ... 3009.shtml

I'm drawing conclusions but he says DynEPO is the big problem and then links Armstrong.

mididoctors

this back dated blood testing is going to get them...

DavMartinR

mididoctors wrote:

this back dated blood testing is going to get them...

I was thinking that. Don't they take blood from the rider then introduce EPO and then pump it back into the rider when needed?

Or am I on the wrong path with that?

iainf72

DavMartinR wrote:

I was thinking that. Don't they take blood from the rider then introduce EPO and then pump it back into the rider when needed?

Or am I on the wrong path with that?

Not quite. They take blood out, store it and put back when when needed. The EPO is just a bit of a helper to get you going after the removal and helps make sure you have enough red blood cells.

In other news, Milram might be implementing a programme too. Note to the management. You're a German team fellas, don't ever admit there is a positive or you're gone.

moray_gub

iainf72 wrote:

Depends how you look at it.

CSC clean? Snicker
Astana clean? Snicker
Columbia clean? Snicker
Garmin clean? Probably, they're fairly crappy (aside from the guy who's ridden for Bruyneel, Riis and Saiz curiously) so that would seem a good measure.

As a marketing exercise? Good move. Heck, Basso is even publishing his data on t'internet.

Iain mate why do you bother with pro cycling ? seems to me doping issues and accusing all and sundry of it and its practises is your raison d'etre .


cheers
MG

Patrick1.0

Iain obviously just believes that all the top riders and teams are using drugs. If you're crap to average, you're probably not considered a doper. But if you get near to the front, you're a doper. Maybe that's right, I don't know.

moray_gub

Patrick1.0 wrote:

Iain obviously just believes that all the top riders and teams are using drugs. If you're crap to average, you're probably not considered a doper. But if you get near to the front, you're a doper. Maybe that's right, I don't know.

Everyone is enttitled to believe what they want to believe however fanciful it may seem ,me i just could not be arsed following a sport holding the views he does about almost every team.


cheers
MG

forearms Van Petegem

iainf72 wrote:

Depends how you look at it.

CSC clean? Snicker
Astana clean? Snicker
Columbia clean? Snicker
Garmin clean? Probably, they're fairly crappy (aside from the guy who's ridden for Bruyneel, Riis and Saiz curiously) so that would seem a good measure.

As a marketing exercise? Good move. Heck, Basso is even publishing his data on t'internet.

which makes you think. If I was a team owner, I would have a testing program, but would not publish it. What is the point of publishing a program when everyone else are abusing it for PR.

The only effective deterrent is culture.

iainf72

forearms Van Petegem wrote:

The only effective deterrent is culture.

A culture of fear perhaps? With the AFLD's approach they've introduced a lot of FUD and people must be worried about whether something they consider undetectable is indeed undectable.

Garmin are trying to instill a culture but I'm not so sure it's enough. If you get a guy who's done quite well, then through injury or illness has a tailing off of results, he'll be tempted to use something undetectable.

MG and Pat - Do you guys actually believe there is a doping problem in cycling?

rapid_uphill

i hold similar views, a distrust of pro teams, cheating is human nature.

Moray Gub wrote:

Everyone is enttitled to believe what they want to believe however fanciful it may seem ,me i just could not be arsed following a sport holding the views he does about almost every team.


cheers
MG

guv001

If Iain wants to fill his time and is interested in doping in procycling then that is up to him. His reasons are his choices and others on here shouldn't knock him for it. Also it is always healthy to have both sides of any argument investigated.

iainf72

My primary interest has been the racing but if you ignore the doping aspect then you're setting yourself up for disappointment. In a way, if you know what you're watching you can accept it and enjoy it more.

I'm also a terrible gossip and enjoy a good argument. Which doping is good at providing.

Patrick1.0

iainf72 wrote:

My primary interest has been the racing but if you ignore the doping aspect then you're setting yourself up for disappointment. In a way, if you know what you're watching you can accept it and enjoy it more.

I'm also a terrible gossip and enjoy a good argument. Which doping is good at providing.

Ye, fair enough. In answer to your question: yes, there's definitely a big problem with doping in cycling and a number of other sports. It's one of my pet hates but we can't do anything about it - it's down to the sponsors and the teams to start fighting for a clean sport, the fans are all in favour but what can we do other than not turn on our tvs and so on?

guv001

Unless we have national teams with minimal sponsorship (actually meddling with the team). This must take a little of the pressure off to win all the time.

moray_gub

guv001 wrote:

If Iain wants to fill his time and is interested in doping in procycling then that is up to him. His reasons are his choices and others on here shouldn't knock him for it. Also it is always healthy to have both sides of any argument investigated.

Similairly if i feel i want to fill my time asking him then that is up to me. My reasons for doing so are my choices and others on here shoudnt knock me for it. Anyway i wasnt arguing against his point of view i am merely making the point that if i held his views i would not be interested in the sport.

cheers
MG

moray_gub

rapid_uphill wrote:

i hold similar views, a distrust of pro teams, cheating is human nature.

Moray Gub wrote:

Everyone is enttitled to believe what they want to believe however fanciful it may seem ,me i just could not be arsed following a sport holding the views he does about almost every team.


cheers
MG

Hold whatever views you feel free to, but its like saying that you watch pro football but you know all the games are fixed but you still watch anyway..........???????


cheers
MG

rapid_uphill

i sometimes watch wwf wrestling and believe its real.

moray_gub

rapid_uphill wrote:

i sometimes watch wwf wrestling and believe its real.

You are Kendo Nagasaki and i claim my free voucher to the next ITV world of sport wrestling evening.

cheers
MG

Patrick1.0

The reason I don't think they're all doping is because it's still obvious when somebody like Ricco or Bernard Kohl is doping. I am sure there are cases where riders are doping and it's not so obvious and haven't been caught yet but if they were all doping, how did Ricco manage to destroy them all up the (can't remember the name of the mountain where he launched his big attack). Surely we can all draw some hope from the fact that a whole group of riders didn't respond and start attacking each other all the way up the mountain at ridiculous speeds.

Also, I am not saying there is not a problem, there still is. I am just trying to look for the positives.

iainf72

Patrick1.0 wrote:

The reason I don't think they're all doping is because it's still obvious when somebody like Ricco or Bernard Kohl is doping.

Is it though? Ok, Ricco was blindingly obvious but as was pointed out on the comic website, Kohl was held up in the Tour as an example of how "clean" cycling looks.

I think there are less guys doping now however there are many still at it.