Training at Lower Heart Rate zones

doyler78

Worked out my LT to be 172bpm and based my zones of that as per the programme in Cycling Weekly's Autumn Health & Fitness Guide.

Trying my hardest to stay within the Endurance zone (118bpm - 143bpm) I actually managed:

8m44s - Active Recovery
34m07s - Edurance
13m02s - Tempo
00m22s - Threshold

I had nowhere else to go on ascents (quite small really) as I was in bottom gear (34x25). I know that we shouldn't be a slave to a particular zone however 13m above zone on a 56min ride sounds like a lot. How do I keep myself from going higher apart from sticking on mountain bike gears or is just that I have never trained at these low intensities before and thus I will adapt to riding slower easier. I must admit I felt like an idiot riding so slowly. Normally I would expect to complete this in 46-47 mins and nearer 42 on a good day in this direction so I was seriously slower than normal. Even on a windy day I would be hard pushed to get in that slow.

I was trying this zone out this morning as I need to work my commute around the 7 hour programme in the magazine and I intend to ride the commutes that I don't use for actual training sessions from the mag at this easier pace.

Is this the best way to approach working my commute with respect to the training programme or because they are only around 40-50 mins each way I shouldn't really be too worried about the intesity of them (so long as I really don't push them too hard) as they aren't really that long so they will not have a huge impact on my targetted sessions?

For instance today my session that I will be doing going home will be 90mins:

30mins Endurance Zone (Easy) (118-143bpm)
20mins Threshold Zone (Brisk) x 2 (163-181bpm)
10mins Active Recovery/Endurance Zone (Easy) x 2 (<143bpm)

Basically it just seems very hard to maintain an endurance pace and commuting seems incompatible with most training programmes I guess because as I have already found they generally aren't long enough it would seem to be of great benefit yet too frequent to be used for hard training plus some days you just want to get to work and get home again.

The joys of heart rate training and this is only day 1 and I haven't even done the proper session yet - that comes in about 1 hour :oops:

spotlamp

I'd be interested in the responses here as I'm also trying out this low intensity training (via the fitness section on here actually) and I'm really really struggling to keep to the lower pace and also have to agree that I look like a complete numpty cycling at what I perceive is a painfully slow pace.

On numerous sections of my 55k ride yesterday I was barely doing 25km/h and hitting about 80%. Would be interested to know if things will improve as fitness picks up - anyone?

H

SCR Pedro

Hey there,

I started doing proper base training in February, and I also found it difficult to keep the pace down. I persisted, and eventually it became easier to stay between 70-80%. I just try to keep it below 80%. This means low gears and preparing the mind for a long slow ride.

When I started doing this, I was getting average speeds in the low 20kph's, and about 6 months later I was getting about 24-25kph over 3 hours for the same effort. I keep an extensive log, so I could give you the exact figures, but it's too late at night for that.

I can't say that this will be the case for everybody though. What works for me may not work for you, but stick with it and see how it goes.

Cheers
Pedro

Alex_Simmons/RST

You are asking for pretty specific coaching advice.

All I'll say is:
- if it feels too slow and easy for endurance pace, then it is and
- I don't know anyone who got better by trying to go much slower

doyler78

The reason why I was doing the very easy paced rides was not to get any training effect. It is basically being used to warmup, cool down and recovery during intervals (as for instance last night there was 30 mins warmup, 20 mins @ LT with 10mins @ Easy x 2) or at least that's how I read these zones in Cycling Weekly (which is basically exactly the same zones as defined in Training and Racing with a Power Meter bar the combining of the Active Recovery and Endurance zones into 1 which they call Easy).

I have taken a 7 hour programme from the mag however I would do that on my commute alone therefore my problem was trying to juggle my commute with the demands of the programme itself. I have found that I can fit the programme into a lot of my commutes therefore I was left with either a ride in on the morning or ride home in the evening in which these rides were not part of the programme. My dilemma really was what should I do with this extra riding. Was it to go at this really easy pace so that I could minimise its impact on the rest of the programme or would I be better just do an Endurance to Tempo based ride as it only lasts 45 mins.

When I look at your zones Pedro and hear what you are saying Alex then it seems clear to me that doing this extra riding at Tempo pace (which is 84-94% of LTHR which when I work mine out based on Pedro's 70-80% maxHR zone equates largely to the same heart range). Afterall if I'm doing the riding I might as well get the benefit of it. Simple I suppose when you think about it that way.

So basically what I think I should be doing is to follow the programme and any extra riding I can fit in just get out and do it at reasonable pace so long as I don't do any crazy hard stuff in this as there are sessions which already has this in it and best to stick to that in them.

On last nights ride home most of which was in complete darkness bar my ayup lights showing the way. Really enjoyed doing it and doing those 2x20min intervals was hard. I now have one this evening to do which has very short recovery between each with a decreasing length on the interval. Next time I will cut the warmup down to 15-20 mins (instead of 30 mins) as it was too long for me and use the extra time at the other end to do a more steady cool down from the LT down to recovery at the end rather than dropping straight down. Anyway I think me and structure will get along very nicely. It certainly makes for more interesting riding. They do say variety is the spice of life and I guess that applies as much to the bike as it does anything else

fuzzynavel

Was it this short article that you were referencing?

http://www.bikeradar.com/fitness/articl ... etter-1065

Alex_Simmons/RST

doyler78 wrote:

The reason why I was doing the very easy paced rides was not to get any training effect.

What you do with additional time really depends on a number of things and how much increase in training load you can sustain.

Only one way to find out....

Gothmeister

I am using a HRM to keep within my "Fat-burning" range, working to a range of about 60% to 75% and found the same problem of (initially, at any rate) having to keep to VERY slow pace; so I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one. After a few sessions my achievable speed has increased, but, being a bit of a "poseur", I still make sure that, when I meet other riders/runners et cetera, I am looking at the monitor on my wrist and comment on how difficult it is to keep the heart rate down!! :oops:

Alex_Simmons/RST

Gothmeister wrote:

I am using a HRM to keep within my "Fat-burning" range, working to a range of about 60% to 75% and found the same problem of (initially, at any rate) having to keep to VERY slow pace; so I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one. After a few sessions my achievable speed has increased, but, being a bit of a "poseur", I still make sure that, when I meet other riders/runners et cetera, I am looking at the monitor on my wrist and comment on how difficult it is to keep the heart rate down!! :oops:

Wanna burn more fat?

Ride harder.

doyler78

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

doyler78 wrote:

The reason why I was doing the very easy paced rides was not to get any training effect.

What you do with additional time really depends on a number of things and how much increase in training load you can sustain.

Only one way to find out....

I guess you're right. I'll soon see if the extra riding is going to be too much for me in which case it will have to be easier rides on the non programmed sessions.

Patrick1.0

I actually feel worse the day after a really slow ride. When I average a fast tempo all the way round on my long rides I feel better the next day. What's that about?

doyler78

Patrick1.0 wrote:

I actually feel worse the day after a really slow ride. When I average a fast tempo all the way round on my long rides I feel better the next day. What's that about?

:shock: :shock:

Patrick1.0

doyler78 wrote:

Patrick1.0 wrote:

I actually feel worse the day after a really slow ride. When I average a fast tempo all the way round on my long rides I feel better the next day. What's that about?

:shock: :shock:

I wasn't trying to alarm you, but it does happen to me. I of course feel tired sometimes after a long, hard ride, but recovery rides tend to send my muscles to sleep for the next day. My resting heart rate is also invariably higher and I just generally feel more lethargic.

I think it's just the way my body works. Some days I feel as though my legs aren't right after an hour of riding but then they come round and I can do the next three hours more relaxed at a faster pace. A bit like an old tractor coming to life :P .

azzurribike

I agree with Alex, I was 'pootling around' in pelotons saturday ride etc and fat and improvement nil. I started doing 200kms+ /week and now I am losing weight and eating like a horse. Sprints hils and endurance all improving. I make sure I get at least 1-2 days recovery in the week, and get plenty of protein on recovery days. I have steadily lost 9Kgs down to 74Kgs over 6 months and almost at a BMI of 22.5 1Kg to go.... guess my height now.

I generally ride as hard as I can for as long as I can. + a few rides not so hard but still up there for effort.

No pain no gain.... for me anyway.

doyler78

Thanks Patrick seems to defy logic and confirms just how different we all are.

I will soon see what effect this all has on me. I was out on the bike Sat, Sun, started prog Mon which had 2 hard 20mins sections, done second day of prog yesterday and that included 1x20min LT training. I tested my resting heart rate this morning and it was absolutely normal at 39bpm so happy with that. Today's a rest day

damage36

doyler78 wrote:

Thanks Patrick seems to defy logic and confirms just how different we all are.

I will soon see what effect this all has on me. I was out on the bike Sat, Sun, started prog Mon which had 2 hard 20mins sections, done second day of prog yesterday and that included 1x20min LT training. I tested my resting heart rate this morning and it was absolutely normal at 39bpm so happy with that. Today's a rest day

Resting HR of 39! You beast you!

Slow rides are fine to recover, but otherwise a waste of time. Some people, such as my dad, refuse to go fast as the point of his riding is taking in the view pretty much.

doyler78

damage36 wrote:

doyler78 wrote:

Thanks Patrick seems to defy logic and confirms just how different we all are.

I will soon see what effect this all has on me. I was out on the bike Sat, Sun, started prog Mon which had 2 hard 20mins sections, done second day of prog yesterday and that included 1x20min LT training. I tested my resting heart rate this morning and it was absolutely normal at 39bpm so happy with that. Today's a rest day

Resting HR of 39! You beast you!

Slow rides are fine to recover, but otherwise a waste of time. Some people, such as my dad, refuse to go fast as the point of his riding is taking in the view pretty much.

Alex_Simmons/RST

Patrick1.0 wrote:

I actually feel worse the day after a really slow ride. When I average a fast tempo all the way round on my long rides I feel better the next day. What's that about?

There's a range of things potentially going on there but it is not uncommon for racers to need a hardish workout the day before a race in order to perform better on race day. It depends on lot on where you are in the training cycle.

I know I've produced power PB's in a criterium the day after a really hard 3hr road race.

pbt150

doyler78 wrote:

I tested my resting heart rate this morning and it was absolutely normal at 39bpm so happy with that. Today's a rest day

39?! Must sound like a drum beat from a chav's car - do the neighbours complain about the noise when you go to bed?

On a more serious note - training at differnet intensities will achieve different things - lower 'fat burning' levels will help you increase the capillary network in your leg muscles and your oxygen transport capability, higher intensitites will help you shift glycogen more efficiently so you can fuel your muscles better.

If you're training around once a day, or have big rides at the weekend you can't physically do them all at maximum effort - you'll stress your muscles (and the heart is also a muscle), and not achieve as much from the training, as well as making yourself ill. Over the winter a low intensity workout should form the majority (75%) of your riding, with a bit of harder stuff and a touch of interval/hill training. I know people who have tried to work too hard during all their workouts thinking that it's the best way to get faster, and they just get ill, tired and don't make any progress.

doyler78

pbt150 wrote:

doyler78 wrote:

I tested my resting heart rate this morning and it was absolutely normal at 39bpm so happy with that. Today's a rest day

39?! Must sound like a drum beat from a chav's car - do the neighbours complain about the noise when you go to bed?

On a more serious note - training at differnet intensities will achieve different things - lower 'fat burning' levels will help you increase the capillary network in your leg muscles and your oxygen transport capability, higher intensitites will help you shift glycogen more efficiently so you can fuel your muscles better.

If you're training around once a day, or have big rides at the weekend you can't physically do them all at maximum effort - you'll stress your muscles (and the heart is also a muscle), and not achieve as much from the training, as well as making yourself ill. Over the winter a low intensity workout should form the majority (75%) of your riding, with a bit of harder stuff and a touch of interval/hill training. I know people who have tried to work too hard during all their workouts thinking that it's the best way to get faster, and they just get ill, tired and don't make any progress.

Ah today I had my lowest ever recorded resting heart rate of 38bpm nevermind the neighbours thinking of bringing some jump leads to bed tonight

That all sounds good however what constitues low intesity as my programme has 5 heart training zones:

Easy (Endurance): 118-143
Steady (Tempo): 144-162
Brisk (Threshold): 163-181
Hard (V02 Max): >181
Very Hard (Anaerobic Capacity): Flat out

And these are exactly the same zones as given by Hunter Allen and Andy Coogan in their Power Meter Training book except that they have one lower level <118 which is called Active Recovery.

Most of my commutes that I done prior to adopting this programme were in the heart ranges between Endurance and Threshold. For instance today, which was a pretty typical run in (given the rather heavy Aksiums that I'm tyring out at the min), looked like this:

5% - Active Recovery
21% - Endurance
48% - Tempo
26% - Threshold

At what level would you consider low intensity and what point does it become something may be too hard and thus start to give diminishing or negative returns?

To me that spread of heart rates looks to me as though it isn't anything too intense and thus I can probably safely carry on as normal with the way I ride my commutes which are now not part of my programme. I'm sure it will become apparent if I find that I can't tolerate the sudden change from that sort of pretty mediocre training ie right in the middle almost to something which is much more varied and focused in terms of exactly how intense each part of the training session are.

I'm actually really enjoying following the programme at the minute but then this is only week 1. We'll see how things pan out in a few weeks time when the novelty begins to wear off.

Have to say also love the my Polar CS600. In the ptich black the other night I could follow my programme without even having to press the night mode button constantly because a slow beeping is given when I fell out of my target heart range and fast beeping when I was going too hard - pure silence when I was where I should be. Allowed me to just concentrate on what I was doing. Great piece of kit. If I ever get the damn power meter setup sorted it should be even better.

1/2 hour to go until I start my third programmed session - this is a harder one - lots of threshold with only 1 min recovery before the next threshold in decreasing lengths from 12min down to 4mins. Sounds like fun :twisted:

Gothmeister

Gothmeister wrote:

I am using a HRM to keep within my "Fat-burning" range, working to a range of about 60% to 75% and found the same problem of (initially, at any rate) having to keep to VERY slow pace;

A few days later and I am now having trouble keeping above my lower limit! Well, not having TROUBLE exactly, but I AM having to work harder/ride faster! Also, I can now get up my long ascent (5 times each session) without exceeding my upper limit. Plus my recovery time is shortening. So things are obviously improving!

inseine

It seems to me that it depends on how much training you do and in how long the sessions are as to how hard you go. I do about 7 hours a week pretty much all year since that's what I can fit in. Now doing a 3-4 hour ride on a Sunday at lower levels may well do you some good but if you can only do one hour sessions during the week (I do them on the turbo) at low intencities surely this does you no good at all, especially at these lowish overall hours? Even at this time of year i would rather ride at 80%+ on the turbo since I only get on it 2 or 3 times during the week, then a moderatly paced hour on saturday and an mixed 4 hours on Sunday.

Alex_Simmons/RST

pbt150 wrote:

On a more serious note - training at differnet intensities will achieve different things - lower 'fat burning' levels will help you increase the capillary network in your leg muscles and your oxygen transport capability, higher intensitites will help you shift glycogen more efficiently so you can fuel your muscles better.

Hmmmm.

While training at all above-recovery levels will have some benefit, the most effective intensity levels for improving both muscle capillary density and our oxygen transport capacity are attained by training focussed on spending sufficient time at fairly high intensities at and near VO2 Max.

Thta does not mean however one should do such training at all times, as that would be counterproductive.

liversedge

I've dropped L2 workouts altogether. If I'm riding slower than Tempo then its a rest day and I'm noodling around for "Active Recovery".

As far as I am concerned L2 is nostalgia reserved for the beards and toe-clips brigade. :twisted:

Spinnerman

If you are guessing, you might as well just ride and see what happens. You will probably get the same results. Get a coach who can properly guide you based on your goals and objectives.

Patrick1.0

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

Patrick1.0 wrote:

I actually feel worse the day after a really slow ride. When I average a fast tempo all the way round on my long rides I feel better the next day. What's that about?

There's a range of things potentially going on there but it is not uncommon for racers to need a hardish workout the day before a race in order to perform better on race day. It depends on lot on where you are in the training cycle.

I know I've produced power PB's in a criterium the day after a really hard 3hr road race.

Thanks, Alex. I will have to experiment before the season starts to find out what my body responds best to on the day before an important event.

jcdessent

Bought palmer/allens book on sportive training and they contradict themselves, they say not to do rides in endurance zone(i.e. peter keen's old level 2 : 35 to 45 bpm below max hr) then prescribe 3 and 4 hour rides in this zone?! Much literature seems to argue against riding at above 75% max hr for rides over 2 hours but I am short on time and want to know how I should base train?I have suffered heart problems through over training(electrical) so want to get a balance between volume and intensity to make use of my short time over the winter .I have 6 to 8 hours per week ,any advice. :?

Alex_Simmons/RST

Patrick1.0 wrote:

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

Patrick1.0 wrote:

I actually feel worse the day after a really slow ride. When I average a fast tempo all the way round on my long rides I feel better the next day. What's that about?

There's a range of things potentially going on there but it is not uncommon for racers to need a hardish workout the day before a race in order to perform better on race day. It depends on lot on where you are in the training cycle.

I know I've produced power PB's in a criterium the day after a really hard 3hr road race.

Thanks, Alex. I will have to experiment before the season starts to find out what my body responds best to on the day before an important event.

Well in general, an easy day with some "leg opener" efforts is what works for most people.

stevewj

I'm confused as to why people are doing intervals at this time of year. Presumably they are not competing on the road or tts next year and are either doing cross this winter or are doing them for general improvement in their riding speed?

Alex_Simmons/RST

stevewj wrote:

I'm confused as to why people are doing intervals at this time of year. Presumably they are not competing on the road or tts next year and are either doing cross this winter or are doing them for general improvement in their riding speed?

Because not everyone lives in England perhaps?

TheGreatGatsby

I tend to do the majority of my riding in zones 1-3, usually not my fault ie intensity and speed are well up but HR remains in those zones regardless of how long or far my ride is. Currently doing around 3-4hours a day 5 days a week with a 3-6hour ride on sunday.

I was out for a four hour tool about in the countryside this morning and have realised that I perform alot better in the second half of the ride than the first and don't know why? When I start regardless of the intensity goal I have set myself - usually L2 for the whole ride of between 3 and 6 hours - my HR and effort is well down then things start improving 2-2.5hours in and then I find I can sprint to max and ride at TT level towards the end - 4-6hours in. Was just wondering why this is - is it a psychological thing ie close to home so can afford to expend some energy?

Gats