What riders want

fizz

I like having a timing chip. It makes me feel like I am doing something a little different than just going for a ride. I feel like I'm taking part in an event.

I think the Pendragon guys have it right for what I want. i.e

A Printed Certificate, with time and bronze / silver / gold standard reached
A Finishers Medal
Timing chip
Food and the feed stations is pretty good. they had started rnunning out of stuff on the TOW, but the Tour of Dartmoor they had plenty and plenty of energy drink / water to. So plenty of choice and a good quantity to.

Option to buy a T-Shirt if I want to and I can purchase photos of me on the day from a selection should I want to as well.

I personally prefer the keep it simple approach...

Ken Night

Booboocp wrote:

So, lets have some feedback. As an organiser I need to decide for 2009 and what better way than asking what the riders themselves want.

Whatever it is that go to make the day an experience

In rough order

Quality route (defined as one that "flows" with lots of interest, scenery, history, variety, good surfaces, lightly trafficked, several routes with plenty to offer to the novice rider)
a celebration of biking-love or loathe the Etape or Marmotte or the Italian GFs or even the Dragon, an event that has lots of "draw" The event doesn't have to be large-the wow (scenic/difficulty) factor of the very small FWC is right off the scale, and therefore attracts all sorts
Good organisation-
-parking
-changing/showering/toilets
-good signing
Well thought out feed stations-long tables, decent food (real food) plenty of it
Worthwhile meal at the finish
Decent area at start and finish so you can mingle
Lots of support from local community (for example in the Dauphine in the Vercours, villages get decked out, and the local paper has the event on the front page the following day, as well as all the results on the inside.
The Iron Mountain at Abergavenny is also good, with police marshalling the roundabouts coming back into town.
Our Dartmoor Classic attracts a lot of support from the county council-employees are encourged to enter)
Lots of stalls selling bikie stuffOther support from manufacturers/retailers in the area
An informative and interesting website-nice pics and plenty of information about the area, and previous editions
Pics available on the day, or online within 24 hours
Other stuff-masseuse, accessiblitity of the organiser (Lofty at FWC will chat to anyone),

For those who haven't done it, the WRC meets and beats most of these criteria


I don't think it would be a sportive if there was to be no timing chip-fatuous debate

samoff

I voted for the free digital photo, but thinking about it now, surely that would be a a bit of an organisational nightmare. You'd have to make absolutely certain you got a picture of everybody, with their face visible. You can just imagine the repurcussions if someone got missed out :roll:

Personally, I have no problem with the way the photographers work at sportives. Sure they charge a few quid for each one, but they put in a shift and may end up with no sales at all (I wonder how many they do get). And with that in prospect they have to make the pictures as good as possible.
After each sportive, I'm always keen to see the photos. I remain hopeful that one day I will come out looking like an action hero (as many riders seem to). Should that happen, the I'll buy, buy, buy, because all my wife ever sees is the right state I'm in at the end of the ride.
So far, however, I've always come out looking like a dork on a paper-round. I may have to accept that I am, in fact, a dork.

(no offence meant to the news delivery community)

Dragon Master

I'd just like to respond to the criticism directed towards the Dragon Ride. We charged £26 this year which includes the cost of posting out rider’s entry packs and timing chips - this doesn't come cheap but saves you having to register pre event.
We were £4 cheaper than some other leading events so no way the most expensive.

I’ve ridden many Italian Gran Fondo over the years and having spoken to the organisers I know that they are very well sponsored which allows them to give out so many goodies. Most UK events have very little financial support and simply cannot be compared. Sportives have also been going a lot longer on the continent compared to here in the UK

It costs between £45 - 50K to run the Dragon Ride and by the time the tax man takes his share there is not a lot left over to compensate for the months of hard work organising the event.

So basically we are not trying to rip off entrants, unless more money comes into cycling - which it never has in the past, we will always end up having to pay more the our European counterparts

Oh - the cakes were from Tesco incidentally.

Dragon Ride Wales

ugo.santalucia

Dragon Master wrote:

I'd just like to respond to the criticism directed towards the Dragon Ride. We charged £26 this year which includes the cost of posting out rider’s entry packs and timing chips - this doesn't come cheap but saves you having to register pre event.
We were £4 cheaper than some other leading events so no way the most expensive.

I’ve ridden many Italian Gran Fondo over the years and having spoken to the organisers I know that they are very well sponsored which allows them to give out so many goodies. Most UK events have very little financial support and simply cannot be compared. Sportives have also been going a lot longer on the continent compared to here in the UK

It costs between £45 - 50K to run the Dragon Ride and by the time the tax man takes his share there is not a lot left over to compensate for the months of hard work organising the event.

So basically we are not trying to rip off entrants, unless more money comes into cycling - which it never has in the past, we will always end up having to pay more the our European counterparts

Oh - the cakes were from Tesco incidentally.

Dragon Ride Wales

Fair enough, I seem to recall it was more than 26 pounds, but you have to be right on this.
The argument that in the continent events have been running for longer is not supportive, here it seems that entry fees go up every year, rather than down and sponsors are not sponsoring, maybe they show up with a stall to sell you something on the spot.
I just don't seem to understand how some sportives offer an overall better package for 15 pounds than yours does for 26.
You have to agree that having to wait 30 minutes in a queue just to park my car, followed by a good hour in a line waiting to start (fortunately it didn't rain), followed by very poorly stocked food stations and no food at the finish wasn't worth the hassle of driving 3 hours along the M4.
I was led to believe it was a very special event, I'm sorry to say it's not...

ledburyloafer

seems that the dragon, is actually a victim of its own success, have to say that marshalling and support is excellent, but it needs to be to cope with numbers, and on that point trying to park at the old site was no picnic, if you have that many people riding an event you are going to have to wait to be released, not much different for some of the events abroad in terms of waiting.
Re teh feed stops, would agree that they weren't the best, but what do people expect on these events? the shear logistics of trying to feed that many riders must be mind numbing.
i agree that smaller events can put "more " on and for cheaper but they can tailor things more easily for smaller nos, also in the UK I've never ridden any other event with up to a 100 people in a bunch on a non competitive event, with a police out rider, great,.... made me feel happy, worth the entry fee alone!
The fact is that the dragon will no doubt draw as many people again next year, so it has to be doing something right.

ugo.santalucia

ledburyloafer wrote:

seems that the dragon, is actually a victim of its own success, have to say that marshalling and support is excellent, but it needs to be to cope with numbers, and on that point trying to park at the old site was no picnic, if you have that many people riding an event you are going to have to wait to be released, not much different for some of the events abroad in terms of waiting.
Re teh feed stops, would agree that they weren't the best, but what do people expect on these events? the shear logistics of trying to feed that many riders must be mind numbing.
i agree that smaller events can put "more " on and for cheaper but they can tailor things more easily for smaller nos, also in the UK I've never ridden any other event with up to a 100 people in a bunch on a non competitive event, with a police out rider, great,.... made me feel happy, worth the entry fee alone!
The fact is that the dragon will no doubt draw as many people again next year, so it has to be doing something right.

Guess is good marketing an d a bit of ambition... I've ridden a few sportives in the UK... they're all very successful, maybe they don't get to 3000 entrants, but it's a logistical choice. I'm pretty sure that the Fred Whitton could easily get to those numbers if the organisers only wanted to.

The point is exactly here: if you want the event to generate large revenues and accept thousands of entrants, you should provide for a better organisation. You say next year will be equally successful, it probably will, but without me.
I don't think it has the prestige of a great european sportive, nor the level of difficulty, infact, as discussed elsewhere, the climbs are all very easy, nothing to do with alps or even with the ones you get in the north. The course is OK, the bit between Rhigos and Bwlch is actually quite beautiful, other bits are quite mediocre, if not dull.
The impression me and my friends had was that it's not worth if you have to travel to get there. I would definitely do it again if I was living in South Wales, but when you travel you expect something a bit special.
As for the food stations: when I ride 100 miles or more I need to eat a lot and I'd like to have a little more choice: at the Dragon ride the choice was between bananas and little Tesco cakes. As I don't believe in the miracolous properties of bananas, I had 8 cakes or so, after the last one I felt a bit sick, but still hungry, really...
How about some flapjack? How about a few ham sandwiches? How about bread and butter, maybe with jam or honey... a bit of variety FFS!
How much can that cost?

Peter Harrison

chriskempton wrote:

I've only done one sportive, the white rose classic last year, but I have to agree that timing chips just don't fit. It's not a race, so why are they necessary? I can't help thinking it's to somehow maintain the illusion that it's a "sort of race". Just let everyone time themselves.

FWIW I don't like t-shirts either - got dozens of them from tris, 10ks, work events, etc etc, it's such a waste of sweat shop time and natural resources.

I'm for a free photo.

one of the fundamental reasons why I use timing chips for the Cyclone is that we can track riders, see which ride they actually completed and most importantly know if they started and if they finished their respective rides. This was highlighted this year when we were able to find out the whereabouts of 4 missing riders and to ensure they were safe. The safety of all riders is paramount to the running of the event and tracking riders progress is an important safety element of the event.

ledburyloafer

ugo.santalucia wrote:

ledburyloafer wrote:

seems that the dragon, is actually a victim of its own success, have to say that marshalling and support is excellent, but it needs to be to cope with numbers, and on that point trying to park at the old site was no picnic, if you have that many people riding an event you are going to have to wait to be released, not much different for some of the events abroad in terms of waiting.
Re teh feed stops, would agree that they weren't the best, but what do people expect on these events? the shear logistics of trying to feed that many riders must be mind numbing.
i agree that smaller events can put "more " on and for cheaper but they can tailor things more easily for smaller nos, also in the UK I've never ridden any other event with up to a 100 people in a bunch on a non competitive event, with a police out rider, great,.... made me feel happy, worth the entry fee alone!
The fact is that the dragon will no doubt draw as many people again next year, so it has to be doing something right.

Guess is good marketing an d a bit of ambition... I've ridden a few sportives in the UK... they're all very successful, maybe they don't get to 3000 entrants, but it's a logistical choice. I'm pretty sure that the Fred Whitton could easily get to those numbers if the organisers only wanted to.

The point is exactly here: if you want the event to generate large revenues and accept thousands of entrants, you should provide for a better organisation. You say next year will be equally successful, it probably will, but without me.
I don't think it has the prestige of a great european sportive, nor the level of difficulty, infact, as discussed elsewhere, the climbs are all very easy, nothing to do with alps or even with the ones you get in the north. The course is OK, the bit between Rhigos and Bwlch is actually quite beautiful, other bits are quite mediocre, if not dull.
The impression me and my friends had was that it's not worth if you have to travel to get there. I would definitely do it again if I was living in South Wales, but when you travel you expect something a bit special.
As for the food stations: when I ride 100 miles or more I need to eat a lot and I'd like to have a little more choice: at the Dragon ride the choice was between bananas and little Tesco cakes. As I don't believe in the miracolous properties of bananas, I had 8 cakes or so, after the last one I felt a bit sick, but still hungry, really...
How about some flapjack? How about a few ham sandwiches? How about bread and butter, maybe with jam or honey... a bit of variety FFS!
How much can that cost?

personally can't disagree with any of your points, and imho, your view on the ride is spot on, but if the Fred got bigger I think it would start to lose the ability to deliver the quality of food it does already, as I believe would many events. the other aspect to consider, and this is one peculiar to me, I hate waste, and the thought of being on an event, and food being bought to cover all tastes and then having to be thrown because it hasn't been eaten, would seriously bother me. I think I would rather see events state what they are going to offer, simply so people are under no illusion. I think its also best to use feed stops as aback up and carry your own provisions.

ugo.santalucia

ledburyloafer wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

ledburyloafer wrote:

seems that the dragon, is actually a victim of its own success, have to say that marshalling and support is excellent, but it needs to be to cope with numbers, and on that point trying to park at the old site was no picnic, if you have that many people riding an event you are going to have to wait to be released, not much different for some of the events abroad in terms of waiting.
Re teh feed stops, would agree that they weren't the best, but what do people expect on these events? the shear logistics of trying to feed that many riders must be mind numbing.
i agree that smaller events can put "more " on and for cheaper but they can tailor things more easily for smaller nos, also in the UK I've never ridden any other event with up to a 100 people in a bunch on a non competitive event, with a police out rider, great,.... made me feel happy, worth the entry fee alone!
The fact is that the dragon will no doubt draw as many people again next year, so it has to be doing something right.

Guess is good marketing an d a bit of ambition... I've ridden a few sportives in the UK... they're all very successful, maybe they don't get to 3000 entrants, but it's a logistical choice. I'm pretty sure that the Fred Whitton could easily get to those numbers if the organisers only wanted to.

The point is exactly here: if you want the event to generate large revenues and accept thousands of entrants, you should provide for a better organisation. You say next year will be equally successful, it probably will, but without me.
I don't think it has the prestige of a great european sportive, nor the level of difficulty, infact, as discussed elsewhere, the climbs are all very easy, nothing to do with alps or even with the ones you get in the north. The course is OK, the bit between Rhigos and Bwlch is actually quite beautiful, other bits are quite mediocre, if not dull.
The impression me and my friends had was that it's not worth if you have to travel to get there. I would definitely do it again if I was living in South Wales, but when you travel you expect something a bit special.
As for the food stations: when I ride 100 miles or more I need to eat a lot and I'd like to have a little more choice: at the Dragon ride the choice was between bananas and little Tesco cakes. As I don't believe in the miracolous properties of bananas, I had 8 cakes or so, after the last one I felt a bit sick, but still hungry, really...
How about some flapjack? How about a few ham sandwiches? How about bread and butter, maybe with jam or honey... a bit of variety FFS!
How much can that cost?

personally can't disagree with any of your points, and imho, your view on the ride is spot on, but if the Fred got bigger I think it would start to lose the ability to deliver the quality of food it does already, as I believe would many events. the other aspect to consider, and this is one peculiar to me, I hate waste, and the thought of being on an event, and food being bought to cover all tastes and then having to be thrown because it hasn't been eaten, would seriously bother me. I think I would rather see events state what they are going to offer, simply so people are under no illusion. I think its also best to use feed stops as aback up and carry your own provisions.

That's a good point, I hate waste too, not sure more variety with the same overall quantity will generate more waste though.

I did the Eroica in Tuscany a couple of times, possibly the best "sportive" on this planet, if anything in the organisation and food stations... you just can't wait to get to the next one. They cater extraordinary food for thousands of riders... I think it all comes down to whether an organisers are bothered about it or not.

Booboocp

Ugo,

Come and ride the White Rose Challenge. If you do not agree it is amongst the very best (in all areas) sportive you have ridden in Britain, I'll give you your money back - I'm that confident.

Derek

ledburyloafer

Booboocp wrote:

Ugo,

Come and ride the White Rose Challenge. If you do not agree it is amongst the very best (in all areas) sportive you have ridden in Britain, I'll give you your money back - I'm that confident.

Derek

you wont ask for your money back,.....believe me this is a great event

Mettan

fizz wrote:

I like having a timing chip. It makes me feel like I am doing something a little different than just going for a ride. I feel like I'm taking part in an event.

I think the Pendragon guys have it right for what I want. i.e

A Printed Certificate, with time and bronze / silver / gold standard reached
A Finishers Medal
Timing chip
Food and the feed stations is pretty good. they had started rnunning out of stuff on the TOW, but the Tour of Dartmoor they had plenty and plenty of energy drink / water to. So plenty of choice and a good quantity to.

Option to buy a T-Shirt if I want to and I can purchase photos of me on the day from a selection should I want to as well.

I personally prefer the keep it simple approach...

Fully agree with Fizz - that's in addition to Ken's point's (and a few others). For a non-competitive rider, 112 miles with just over 10,000 ft of climbing might be a "challenge" - why shouldn't they receive a token momento (shield/certificate/medal) for completing it - everyone agrees its a bit of trivia, but I do't see a problem with it really.

ugo.santalucia

Booboocp wrote:

Ugo,

Come and ride the White Rose Challenge. If you do not agree it is amongst the very best (in all areas) sportive you have ridden in Britain, I'll give you your money back - I'm that confident.

Derek

Sadly I'll have to decline the kind invitation... we are planning a trip down to Haute Savoie to climb some local hills end of June next year: around Morzine, Annecy etc... Col de la Joux Plane, Colombiere, Forclaz, Cret de Chatillon etc...
It looks good though

Ugo

skinsey

Please no more t-shirts, which only ever get worn for decorating or other dirty jobs. A digital image would be great, as you can then put together a visual record of the events you've done. Reduced entry fees would be great, but frankly, in my view, if you're prepared to pay £20-25 for entry, a few extra quid is not a lot if it ensures there's good foodstops, electronic timing, good signposting (which is the reason I moved to sportives from audaxes in the first place), and mechanical help on the course.

Actually, thinking about it, the single thing that would make sportives more pleasurable in this country would be closed roads, but with the honourable exception of the one in Scotland the name of which I've temporarily forgotten, I guess cash ain't going to make a difference to that - unless sportive organisers can tell us differently?

ugo.santalucia

skinsey wrote:

Please no more t-shirts, which only ever get worn for decorating or other dirty jobs. A digital image would be great, as you can then put together a visual record of the events you've done. Reduced entry fees would be great, but frankly, in my view, if you're prepared to pay £20-25 for entry, a few extra quid is not a lot if it ensures there's good foodstops, electronic timing, good signposting (which is the reason I moved to sportives from audaxes in the first place), and mechanical help on the course.

Actually, thinking about it, the single thing that would make sportives more pleasurable in this country would be closed roads, but with the honourable exception of the one in Scotland the name of which I've temporarily forgotten, I guess cash ain't going to make a difference to that - unless sportive organisers can tell us differently?

Etape Caledonia...

Forget about it, it will never happen...

CumbrianMan

Derek

I know this might sound a strange one, but how about a Buff ?

I was looking on their website and noticed that there were designs for the Mountain Mayhem and Fort William MTB events.

If you got one with the White Rose Challenge on it, some road bike designs etc, it'd last for a good while, would get worn doing numerous activities, and woul advertise the event.

By the way, last years WRC was a cracker.

Cheers

ugo.santalucia

Anyway,

I think the biggest problem with UK sportives is that there is no atmosphere. Outside the start/finish area, nobody knows what's going on, nobody cares, the local community is not involved and there is no sinergy with other local events.
The start area is often well outside town centres, so to maximise parking space and minimise disruption, but this way the ride has no soul.
I've stayed in campsites the night before a ride and it was really sad... everybody minding their own business, went to the pub and it was full of locals, not a single rider as they'd gone to bed at nine to make sure they were fit to achieve their 6 hours 19 minutes target...
All very depressing...

rusty nuts

Ugo. Does anything please you about UK sportives?

I don't know why you decided to single out the organisers of the Dragon Ride with you inaccurate criticism. The Fred Whitton & Etape du Dales charged £30 this year to enter, £4 more than the Dragon (which incidentally includes VAT, unlike smaller events). This year Dave Lloyd is charging £40.

Nobody is forcing you to spend over £20, so stop whingeing and go ride your cheapie events or better still team up with the old Welshman and ride on your own!

ugo.santalucia

Criticism is meant to be constructive... you might thank me when you find better food next year in wales

Otherwise we can all write how good sportives are, and complement each other... but it won't get anywhere

andy_wrx

CumbrianMan wrote:

Derek

I know this might sound a strange one, but how about a Buff ?

Yeah I'll go with that.

I don't want yet another t-shirt which will sit in a drawer never used, or end-up being used as cleaning rags.

If every event gave a Buff (or Hedy, or I even got one from Aldi a couple of years ago for £1.50 so they can't be expensive to buy wholesale surely ?) then yes I'd have far too many of the things.
But since everyone else is giving-out t-shirts...

redddraggon

rusty nuts wrote:

This year Dave Lloyd is charging £40.

My 2p

I can't really see what you are paying £40 for. A couple of sausage rolls? Energy drink?

You're not even paying for road closures. It might be the hardest sportive - but why does it actually cost £40 to ride on public roads?

synchronicity

Public liability insurance?

Just a guess. :?

bahzob

I voted for T shirt as have a few from events now and they serve as a nice everyday reminder of the event whenever you wear them.

Ken Night

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Anyway,

I think the biggest problem with UK sportives is that there is no atmosphere. Outside the start/finish area, nobody knows what's going on, nobody cares, the local community is not involved and there is no sinergy with other local events....

I tend to agree with this

Brits don't tend to chat with each other-It's not entirely tongue in cheek to say we look slyly at the rider/bike next to us......don't know how you go about changing that

On the continent, you talk to anybody

I do think it's important to get the local community involved-the Iron Mountain starts and ends more or less in the middle of town, and there are lots of events in the area during the week. ........we need more of that

The Dragon wasn't that bad. Excellent route, and a lot of good athletes going for it

Who wants to go round a sportive feeling less than 100% whether the finishing time is 6hrs or 9hrs?

ugo.santalucia

Ken Night wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Anyway,

I think the biggest problem with UK sportives is that there is no atmosphere. Outside the start/finish area, nobody knows what's going on, nobody cares, the local community is not involved and there is no sinergy with other local events....

I tend to agree with this

Brits don't tend to chat with each other-It's not entirely tongue in cheek to say we look slyly at the rider/bike next to us......don't know how you go about changing that

On the continent, you talk to anybody

I do think it's important to get the local community involved-the Iron Mountain starts and ends more or less in the middle of town, and there are lots of events in the area during the week. ........we need more of that

The Dragon wasn't that bad. Excellent route, and a lot of good athletes going for it

Who wants to go round a sportive feeling less than 100% whether the finishing time is 6hrs or 9hrs?

Well, it's about the event, if you organise a pasta party the night before the ride and you give away a free bottle of beer people might come over the night before the event instead of driving there in the early hours and piss off straight after the finish. This way you create the event, the atmosphere, it's no big deal and you find this pretty much everywhere in the continent.
Don't think it's a problem with you brits, you are sociable enough to enjoy this kind of things, maybe a bit family obsessed and slaves of your wives (OK, I've said it... )

Climber_Andy

Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned