What riders want

Booboocp

I've just read through the sportive t-shirt thread and it's left me wondering... :?

So, lets have some feedback. As an organiser I need to decide for 2009 and what better way than asking what the riders themselves want.

I personally like the idea of a t-shirt and the White Rose Challenge would obviously have the charity details on it in 2009 if we go for that option. But let's see how this poll goes...

ugo.santalucia

In Italy they seem to be able to organise Granfondos with lots of useful free goodies, normally from sponsors, often including the official jersey for free.
All this comes cheaper than a UK Sportive, where for 25 pounds you get some refreshments.. often not even good marshalling.

Is it only my feeling or Sportives are getting overly expensive but don't offer more than they used to?
Some, like the Dragon Ride, are extremely expensive (can't remember, more than 30 pounds I seem to recall), in the goody bag I found a bottle of water, some stuff that went straight in the recycling bin and the feeding stations were pathetic... bananas and ALDI cakes.

I say make it cheaper: 15 pounds is a reasonable entry fee.

Booboocp

ugo, I would love to be able to reduce the fee to £15, but it cannot happen. Here in England it is much more expensive to put on an event and there would be nothing left over for the charity. The average rider has no idea of what is involved, but an organisers job is not easy.

The biggest costs are insurance, timing/results, a HQ, food at HQ, food at feed stations, first aid cover, signage, website, online entry system to name just a few. Not all organisers offer the same quality, but I have been involved for a few years and they are not cheap events to run if you do them well, which I do!

I would imagine they manage to do them cheaper abroad because of the sheer numbers involved, but we will never be on a par with european sportives because of the way cyclists are seen by the general british public - as a nuisance.

shazzz

I voted for cheaper entry, but this is only my answer if reduction is £5+. If the cost of the tee shirt is only a couple of quid it's not worth lowering the entry fee.

I quite like the medals you can buy at events like the Tour of Flanders for a few euros. I have also done events where you get a drinks coaster or a little wooden thingy that looks a bit like a mountain. These things end up in a junk drawer but bring back fond memories when I stumble across them. A tee shirt gets worn a few times in bed then ends up on chain cleaning duty!

ugo.santalucia

Booboocp wrote:

ugo, I would love to be able to reduce the fee to £15, but it cannot happen. Here in England it is much more expensive to put on an event and there would be nothing left over for the charity. The average rider has no idea of what is involved, but an organisers job is not easy.

The biggest costs are insurance, timing/results, a HQ, food at HQ, food at feed stations, first aid cover, signage, website, online entry system to name just a few. Not all organisers offer the same quality, but I have been involved for a few years and they are not cheap events to run if you do them well, which I do!

I would imagine they manage to do them cheaper abroad because of the sheer numbers involved, but we will never be on a par with european sportives because of the way cyclists are seen by the general british public - as a nuisance.

I get your point, but anywhere, both here and in Europe, the most expesive sportives are the also the most popular with thousands of entrants, so it's not about the numbers (the most expensive in Italy is the Maratona des Dolomites, at 70 euros, which has 8000 entrants).
There are cuts which can be made. At the Polka Dot they don't use timing chips and keep the entry lower. Frankly timing chips are of no use, considering the event is NON competitive, it's actually a bit of a nonsense, to have a non competitive event with official timing. In Italy they use timing chips, but Granfondos are races, so it makes sense. Medals, silly gadgets, all of no use... maybe a jersey... I would pay for that, as I will probably make good use of it, but what can I do with the silly bag and fabric wallet I got at the Chiltern 100? It's not even good for the charity shop

Captain Fagor

I voted for the t-shirt.

This is mainly on the strength of the 2006 White Rose Classic t-shirt, which I think is rather fetching. All I need is a lovely laydee to fill it..... :P

oldwelshman

Entry cost in UK is way too high for whatever reason so I will not be doing any next year because once you have done a few the novelty wears off.
It is easy to arrange a weekend training where you could ride the routes anyway and sportives are not competitive remember.
The Gran Fondos provide excellent food at food stations and pasta fest afterwards and usefuly goody bag,I I presume they get better sponsors. They also have several stalls on the day before and on the day selling cycling gear, and these are not rubbish but major manufacturers so I presume they have to pay to be there.
Personally I would vote for cheaper entry fee and free digital photograph.
Again for the Gran Fondo I received two prints free.

chuckcork

If you are taking entries, why not close them early, make sure your suppliers are able to deliver at (reasonably short) notice, and just give them what they want?

Or get an idea ahead of time by asking them as they enter, put it on a database and then order the percentage as required with a projection as to final numbers.

After all if you were going to have T-shirts you'd have to get the number of sizings about correct....

FSR_XC

I would prefer to get a proper riding top.

I guess this would end up increasing entry costs, but at least I would have something that (depending on the event) I would be pround to wear and it would get worn for a purpose.

I have a number of T-shirts for various events I have entered. They get worn a few times, before finding their way to the back of the cupboard.

andy_wrx

A proper jersey is a non-starter I'm afraid, at least as a freebie - different if you order and pay for it.
It's going to have to be the right size for a start. If it were too small or too big by more than one size, you'd never wear it, so the organiser is going to have to know what size precisely to order.
And it would be too expensive. I remember my tri club looking around for a new supplier for club kit and jerseys were £25 or so, obviously depending on qty.

T-shirts on the other hand can be bought dead cheap - perhaps only a couple of quid each.
And being non-technical, it doesn't really matter what size they are, besides some people like em baggy.
In fact, as it would be a problem if they were too small and you couldn't fit in them, but not the end of the world if they're too big, as the organiser doesn't know how many of each size will be needed, the temptation must be to buy them all in XXL and thus reduce the cost even further by only ordering one size.

I run as well as cycle and the girls in the club always laugh after a race at getting a men's XXL t-shirt, which is completely useless for them, except perhaps as a nightie.

It's easy as a runner to do a 5K or 10K every week in the Summer and end-up with dozens of T-shirts, which just end-up as car and bike cleaning rags.

So no, not turned-on by t-shirts I'm afraid.

Mettan

I don't see a problem with receiving a token "shield" / "medal" or similar for completing a "tough" Sportive - many people taking part are non-competitive riders (for whatever reason) and to complete the Dave Lloyd or Fred etc is an "achievement" for them. I'd imagine many would be happy with a "substantial" momento, as opposed to a t-shirt etc.....and why not - the Dave Lloyd next year is going to be around 16,000 ft of clmbing........ I'd say MOP deserve a "medal" or similar for completing that

ugo.santalucia

There is a fundamental dilemma...

If you want to do charity, then I'm happy to pay for that, but not for the transponders/timing chips, because it's a charity sportive and not a competitive event.

If you want to give away timing chips, then it's not a charity ride and I don't see why I should pay for charity (I might rise my personal funds if I want to)...

One or the other, not both...

This year I've done 10 sportives, invested around 250 pounds in them (plus the cost of reaching the destination and occasionally staying overnight, which probably doubles that figure), I think it's a bit too much, next year I'm looking at doing 1 or 2... that unless they come down in price significantly

SBezza

I can understand the cost of entry, I don't really think £25 is excessive to be honest. I would prefer to have a timing chip, and have a properly recorded time, though on smaller sportives this has been done manually with no problems as well, but for bigger sportives, this is probably a non starter.

I like a momento for finishing, one I did I got a medal, the other a rosette, both useless in the grand scheme of things, but a momento all the same. I personally would got with something useful for cycling, like the cycle cap. Alternatively a free photo, as all seem to have photographers on them, but they seem to charge silly money for a digital image e-mailed to you.

No doubt you will never get a consensus, because people all want different things, but I think a well run day, with plenty of decent food at the feed stations, will get you remembered better than any freebies IMO.

ugo.santalucia

SBezza wrote:

I can understand the cost of entry, I don't really think £25 is excessive to be honest. I would prefer to have a timing chip, and have a properly recorded time, though on smaller sportives this has been done manually with no problems as well, but for bigger sportives, this is probably a non starter.

I like a momento for finishing, one I did I got a medal, the other a rosette, both useless in the grand scheme of things, but a momento all the same. I personally would got with something useful for cycling, like the cycle cap. Alternatively a free photo, as all seem to have photographers on them, but they seem to charge silly money for a digital image e-mailed to you.

No doubt you will never get a consensus, because people all want different things, but I think a well run day, with plenty of decent food at the feed stations, will get you remembered better than any freebies IMO.

It might not seem excessive if you do the odd one, but when you do one every other week... plus you have to consider they used to be A LOT cheaper just a few years ago and you barely notice the difference in the quality of the organisation.
Timing chips are a big part of that (I'd like to know how much they really cost)... what do they really give you that you don't already have? Your computer will give your riding time, which is a better way to rate your performance, infact if you suffer three punctures you get a crap time on the transponder, but is it your fault? Your computer will be more realistic...
If you want the overall time, time your finish time minus time you started... it does the trick, maybe it's not accurate to the second as transpoders are, but who cares in a 6 hours event? Do you look at the seconds?

Timing chips are only there to fool you in the perception that there is a general classification, that yes, you are better than most and you are gold... I think we should grow up, there are races for that. Timing chips should be on a voluntary basis (as they are in Europe) you want it? You pay for it, needless to say, I won't bother

chriskempton

I've only done one sportive, the white rose classic last year, but I have to agree that timing chips just don't fit. It's not a race, so why are they necessary? I can't help thinking it's to somehow maintain the illusion that it's a "sort of race". Just let everyone time themselves.

FWIW I don't like t-shirts either - got dozens of them from tris, 10ks, work events, etc etc, it's such a waste of sweat shop time and natural resources.

I'm for a free photo.

zenzinnia

I think timing chips have probably come out of the running scene. Since most marathons/ half marathons etc now have them the price must have come down and it's seen as part of what you do. Cycling is differnent - most people who care probably have a cycle computer and then you get stopped all over the place by lights, junctions etc. so a timing chip is probably not as appropriate but a timing card should still be able to differentate those who have gone fast and slow enough to give diferent certificates/ medals based on time taken. On one I went to it just went on when you got back in so if you set off at the last moment you probably had no chance of getting a 'gold' where as most of those setting of first thing did. However I was more interested in the free energy bar that was on offer at that stage! All these things though take more organisation and sportives are often done by small groups of volunteers rather than a pro staff - they are probably more trouble than they're worth as most riders just want a good ride and that is where the time and effort should be placed.

ugo.santalucia

zenzinnia wrote:

I think timing chips have probably come out of the running scene. Since most marathons/ half marathons etc now have them the price must have come down and it's seen as part of what you do. Cycling is differnent - most people who care probably have a cycle computer and then you get stopped all over the place by lights, junctions etc. so a timing chip is probably not as appropriate but a timing card should still be able to differentate those who have gone fast and slow enough to give diferent certificates/ medals based on time taken. On one I went to it just went on when you got back in so if you set off at the last moment you probably had no chance of getting a 'gold' where as most of those setting of first thing did. However I was more interested in the free energy bar that was on offer at that stage! All these things though take more organisation and sportives are often done by small groups of volunteers rather than a pro staff - they are probably more trouble than they're worth as most riders just want a good ride and that is where the time and effort should be placed.

I think timing chips have imposed themselves as a "must have" in sportives, probably good marketing by the distributors, but in those sportives where the organisers don't provide timing chips (polka Dot/ Spud Riley), nobody ask for them. Incidentally the same sportives are cheaper to enter.

Admittedly I am in a bit of a crusade against timing chips, but it's one of these things, we should really be more clever and not buy into every crap that is sold to us as "must have"

As we are here, I'd like to point out that IN ABSENCE of a timing chip, maybe riders would stop at red lights and this is a bloody good point against them!

Mettan

Regards the race/not race issue, Sportives are clearly not official races (fullstop) - however, in my experience, the vast majority of people taking part are "racing" against the clock first and foremost - and, as a by-product of that, in a sense, people are competing with one another. IMO, Sportives typically/essentially provide currently non-competitve riders a chance to pay an entry fee to do a "tough" ride and gain a hopefully "good" time at the end of it. People don't "train hard" for the Fred (or similar) to then go on a leisure ride..... - they do it to enable themselves to put in a "good performance", and gain a "good time". In addition to working hard during the Sportive, riders also get to have a fun day out, ride with others, complete a "challenge", perhaps raise money for charity, have a natter with the wife/husband work mates afterwards etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc....... it's not all "competitive". I'm not of course implying that I necessarily think its a good idea for the general public to be riding competitively on public roads during a Sportive..... rather, just that, that's how it seems to be, presently.

LeighB

I agree with Mettan, why would I pay an entry fee to have an untimed ride out, I can do this any weekend. I like the timing element of a sportive ride, it gives me a gauge of my fitness against others and an indiction of any improvements I have made to my performance. I think most of us are competitive by nature and this is part of the challenge of a sportive ride. I recently did the 'Gore' road sportive at Penrith and many of the riders I passed 'jumped on the wheel', why would riders do this if they were not trying for a good time; only thing that bothered me was when a rider passed me I could not keep his wheel! Please leave the format of sportives as they are with timing and a result sheet. The only option without sportives would be racing involving a licence, expensive entrys etc; I am 40 and don't want this, despite the gripes a day out for £25 is a good deal.

JC.152

A lot of them seem tempting to vote for. I'd rather have a cap then a T shirt that most people wouldn't wear again. A cap or jersey like at the rourkie ride last week are good as well cos it also gives the organisers free advertising once people are wearing them for club runs afterwards and they would get used

oldwelshman

LeighB wrote:

I agree with Mettan, why would I pay an entry fee to have an untimed ride out, I can do this any weekend. I like the timing element of a sportive ride, it gives me a gauge of my fitness against others and an indiction of any improvements I have made to my performance. I think most of us are competitive by nature and this is part of the challenge of a sportive ride. I recently did the 'Gore' road sportive at Penrith and many of the riders I passed 'jumped on the wheel', why would riders do this if they were not trying for a good time; only thing that bothered me was when a rider passed me I could not keep his wheel! Please leave the format of sportives as they are with timing and a result sheet. The only option without sportives would be racing involving a licence, expensive entrys etc; I am 40 and don't want this, despite the gripes a day out for £25 is a good deal.

Why an untimed ride? I am pretty sure 99% of cyclists own a watch or computer?
In Italy, I paid 50Euro, and received a very good Pinarello ruck sack, the even had lots of food on stations, and had lots of pasta, coke, deserts, even beer at the end, AND timing chips.
The difference there is they are a race not a sportive and ridden like races.

Over here the times in sportives are quite meaningless to be honest.
I rode one alone for 120 miles and was 15 minutes slower than 6 of my friends who are much slower than me so what does that teel me? OK I will answer, it is easier to ride in a group
So for that reason the times are relative and only useful if you ride the same route more than once in similar conditions, either alone or in the same gorups every time.
You cannot really compare to others as you do not know if they rode alone, in pairs or gorups?
I do sportives sometines, generally for a different form of cycling, to have a bit of fun, see different scenery and for training, but to be honest as others have said, if you take into account travel and accomodation costs it is now becoming very expensive if sportives are you main cycling activity.
Each to their own, but for this reason I chose not to ride many next year.
I can always go to some of these areas to train any time, though if they were cheaper I would ride more sportives.
Not sure what you mean with respect to you being 40 and expensive race entry fees?
I am 48 and race, and most fees are £15 , typically £8 for LVRC for which your eligible, so still cheaper than sportives so what do you mean by expensive?

knedlicky

The UK sportives are ridiculously expensive for what they offer.

The same type-event in France or Germany, albeit without timing and maybe only two medical/mechanical marshals (in vans, not motorbikes), costs about 3 Euro (£2) for registered riders, 5 Euro (£3) for non-registered, admittedly without any souvenir (although in France it might include some free wine/beer and food at the finish, as well as underway). However, the rest of what they provide is about the same - and they also have changing and hot shower facilities, which I'm not aware all UK sportives do.
The main difference to the UK sportives is that these events in France and Germany are organised by local cycling/sportclubs, in order to attain a bit of cash and to publicise themselves to increase membership. UK sportives strike me primarily as commercial enterprises, even if they do also channel some of the incoming money to charity.

Most mass-start events with timing on the Continent cost about the same as the UK sportives, but for that you get a proper high quality cycling shirt or wind jacket, or something of equal value (I've also received cycling rucksacks, bath towels with cycling motives, and a fully-equiped toilet bag, i.e. including all toiletries), not just a simple cap or cheap cotton t-shirt.

ugo.santalucia

LeighB wrote:

I agree with Mettan, why would I pay an entry fee to have an untimed ride out, I can do this any weekend. I like the timing element of a sportive ride, it gives me a gauge of my fitness against others and an indiction of any improvements I have made to my performance. I think most of us are competitive by nature and this is part of the challenge of a sportive ride. I recently did the 'Gore' road sportive at Penrith and many of the riders I passed 'jumped on the wheel', why would riders do this if they were not trying for a good time; only thing that bothered me was when a rider passed me I could not keep his wheel! Please leave the format of sportives as they are with timing and a result sheet. The only option without sportives would be racing involving a licence, expensive entrys etc; I am 40 and don't want this, despite the gripes a day out for £25 is a good deal.

I would say that 50% of the sportive riders think like you, the other half are not bothered about their result being published on a website, some might even prefer not to see their name anywhere on a website.
I think, to make things fair, you should buy your own transponder and I should have a discounted entry fee because I don't want one... this would be the best solution. Transponders could be personal (like it is in Italy) or hired on the day.
As I said, I've never heard of anyone not entering a sportive because there is no official timing, I don't believe it is a selling point, just a rip off for those who aren't bothered. Moreover official timing is misleading, because of mechanical problems, traffic lights and so on and so forth. Last sportive I did, I finished ahead of a guy just because he suffered punctures and I didn't, but he was a hell of a lot faster than me... so what's the argument about official timing and comparing with others? Pointless, again!

Tom Butcher

I prefer to have timing but not bothered if it's with a chip or they just clock you as you come in - I can understand that is difficult with people setting off at different times though.

A better model for sportives might be for clubs to get into organising them to raise club funds - I can't believe that the costs are so high that say 500 riders paying £20 each doesn't yield a useful amount of money if the marshalls etc are volunteers. Then again I don't know how much stuff like timing chips and sportive insurance costs - is there an organiser that could give us a quick idea of the breakdown of costs for say a 500 rider sportive ??

ugo.santalucia

Tom Butcher wrote:

I prefer to have timing but not bothered if it's with a chip or they just clock you as you come in - I can understand that is difficult with people setting off at different times though.

A better model for sportives might be for clubs to get into organising them to raise club funds - I can't believe that the costs are so high that say 500 riders paying £20 each doesn't yield a useful amount of money if the marshalls etc are volunteers. Then again I don't know how much stuff like timing chips and sportive insurance costs - is there an organiser that could give us a quick idea of the breakdown of costs for say a 500 rider sportive ??

Our club organises a 50 miles charity ride within the Chiltern 100 sportive. This year we had well over 100 entrants for the 50 miler. Entry was 15 pounds, same as for the main event, including the hated timing chip, well furnished food stations (but no free food at finish). We managed to raise nearly 500 pounds for charity. Of course it was a no profit event and I reckon without transponders we could (and should) have gone down to 12 quid or so. As part of the Chiltern 100 we gave away a goodie bag, which, in all fairness, was full of rubbish, could have done better.
So yes, it is possible to keep costs around 10-15 pounds and rise some money for charity!

I've read an article on Cycling Weekly about the Dragon Ride... essentially the organiser does that as a job and makes a healthy profit out of it. Personally I won't do it again, it's a very mediocre ride on quite obvious roads, oversubscribed, not particularly well marshalled, overexpensive (more than 30 pounds, I seem to recall), food stations are rubbish, goodie bag is a bottle of welsh water and junk leaflets... you name it...

Booboocp

Well I can state quite clearly that the White Rose Challenge in 2009 will be an outstanding event. Why? well below are a few of the reasons:

1. An established and successful sportive organiser at the helm, working with a first class team of volunteers.
2. A HQ that is very large, will offer 6 hot showers (2 female, 4 male) and plenty of toilet/changing room facilities.
3. Lots of free parking space.
4. Free breakfast before the event.
5. Free quality meal after the event (an outside catering company is being used).
6. Well stocked feed stations - no running out here!
7. Bar open from 12:00 noon (hard & soft drinks).
8. A well signed route.
9. Online and postal entries.
10. A website kept up to the minute with all entries.

And lot's more...

ugo.santalucia

Booboocp wrote:

Well I can state quite clearly that the White Rose Challenge in 2009 will be an outstanding event. Why? well below are a few of the reasons:

1. An established and successful sportive organiser at the helm, working with a first class team of volunteers.
2. A HQ that is very large, will offer 6 hot showers (2 female, 4 male) and plenty of toilet/changing room facilities.
3. Lots of free parking space.
4. Free breakfast before the event.
5. Free quality meal after the event (an outside catering company is being used).
6. Well stocked feed stations - no running out here!
7. Bar open from 12:00 noon (hard & soft drinks).
8. A well signed route.
9. Online and postal entries.
10. A website kept up to the minute with all entries.

And lot's more...

Well, if you offer a breakfast before the event and a real meal after included in the fee, I think it's worth paying some extra money and 25 pounds is appropriate

pneumatic

I voted for the photo.

Any of you sportive organisers care to reveal how much the photo companies are required to contribute to the event in exchange for the right to take and sell pictures?

Judging by what they try and charge for the end product, I would hope the organisers and or their charitable causes are getting a decent cut of the proceeds.

Booboocp

pneumatic wrote:

I voted for the photo.

Any of you sportive organisers care to reveal how much the photo companies are required to contribute to the event in exchange for the right to take and sell pictures?

Judging by what they try and charge for the end product, I would hope the organisers and or their charitable causes are getting a decent cut of the proceeds.

I'm both an organiser and a photographer, so I'll answer this one.

Firstly I do not charge a fee for attending a sportive, and I'll attend any I'm asked to if I'm free. Last year I travelled down to London and stopped overnight, then covered the sportive the next day. I lost money on that one.

I attended Dave Lloyds event (and others) and I do not pay a fee, whatever profit I make I donate some of the proceeds towards my own cancer charities (see my website - I have been doing this with all my images, not just cycling ones) and most riders know this.

You say judging by what we charge? well I don't think £10 for a quality A4 size image is a lot and you can of course buy it as a digital file. This means you can print as many copies as you like - whatever size you like. I think that is a good deal, you might not agree.

Benny Hone

What I want from a sportive is exaxctly what I got from this and last year's White Rose. Everything was superb and I have loved both of the days. The only thing I would like to see is a more lasting momento such as a medal. Doesn't have to be expensive and they can be bought for less than a t-shirt. Perhaps "Gold, silver and bronze" medals depending on your time in the event?

ugo.santalucia

I've asked the organisers of the Chiltern 100. The time chips, per rider cost about 7 pounds, this on a 800 entries basis, could be more for a smaller ride.
That's in excess of 4000 pounds to rent that useless technology for one day. Imagine how much cheaper sportives would be without them... or imagine if all this money went to charity or in food...