Training Rides tempo or 2x20min?

garetjax

hi,

I want to improve fitess for time trialling. I am trying to establish a set of four weekly work-outs. So far Im thinking of:

1. 3-5hr ride steady averaging ~ 18mph. Road
2. 5 minute intervals a bit over time trial pace. Turbo.
3. a range of short 30sec-1minute intervals. Turbo
4. tempo or 2x20min. or open to suggestions.

Have a question re: the fourth ride: Would it be best to do a one-two hour "tempo" ride averaging 20mph OR split this ride into 2x20 min chunks going a bit faster at time trial pace , ~ 23mph for me. Or neither?


Not sure what to do for that fourth ride.

deal

Im no expert so cant answer your question, but could you not include a few 10-20 minute intervals in your long ride to get more out of it? should make it a bit more interesting too!

Cougar

If you want to reach your full potential to race Time Trials then you need to identify how best to develop your capability to do this. Creating a weekly schedule for 4 weeks of mixed speed/endurance rides ticks all the boxes and if you can put it into practice then you will certainly see some progress. BUT

Unfortunately there is no one size fits all training plan that works for all riders. Personally I don't think it is possible to sustain that amount of interval training over 4 weeks and do it properly without overtraining. Recovery is where you mainfest gains in fitness levels and with interval trainingyvour body will need a couple of days to recover from a session.

If you are planning towards peaking for an event and/or time frame (say middle of June) then first develop the endurance side with longer rides at moderate pace (Dec-Mar) with only some interval/tempo work and then as you get closer to your target time reduce the endurance side and introduce higher intensity training (Apr-May)

To train properly you should consider 3-month periodisation where this time of the year you would have some easy riding with a social element say club runs whilst learning/keeping skills like spinning low gears and maybe introduce some gym work to build strength (some disagree with the need for this).

Then getting the miles in to build endurance or an aerobic base, (again some feel this is unneccessary and will do 2 x 20 instead). Then a mixture of the intervals/tempo and not so much endurance with races used as training and then race with no more than one interval session a week and the rest of the week easy rides at moderate pace.

garetjax

ok thanks.

I will follow that general idea. The percentage of time I spend doing each work-out will vary as Spring approaches, moving more from 1 to 4. I am currently doing two 3hr rides per week and one ride where I blast along for 1-2 hours ( blasting for me is averaging 20-21mph!).
But will introduce more of 3 and 4 in Feb, easing off on the 3-5 hr rides. I want to peak for around May.

1. 3-5hr ride steady averaging ~ 18mph. Road
2. sweetspot/Tempo or 2x20min. or open to suggestions.
3. 5 minute intervals a bit over time trial pace. Turbo.
4. a range of short 30sec-1minute intervals. Turbo

Toks

garetjax wrote:

ok thanks.

I will follow that general idea. The percentage of time I spend doing each work-out will vary as Spring approaches, moving more from 1 to 4. I am currently doing two 3hr rides per week and one ride where I blast along for 1-2 hours ( blasting for me is averaging 20-21mph!).
But will introduce more of 3 and 4 in Feb, easing off on the 3-5 hr rides. I want to peak for around May.

1. 3-5hr ride steady averaging ~ 18mph. Road
2. sweetspot/Tempo or 2x20min. or open to suggestions.
3. 5 minute intervals a bit over time trial pace. Turbo.
4. a range of short 30sec-1minute intervals. Turbo

Hi I think the training mix needs to weighted heavily in terms of which physiological component will will make you competitive/successful in your chosen event. Time trialling requires good aerobic power/maximum oxgen uptake (VO2max) and perhaps most importantly a high lactate threshold.

Now how you train will depend on time, ride preference, motivation etc. In my own case I generally have 7-8 hours training time; I prefer short fast rides (2 x20's or 1-2hr sweetspot/tempo rides) I'm not keen on long 3-5hr rides unless its for weight management purposes, its summer or I'm doing a sportiv. Why spend 4hrs riding slowly when you can can get better aerobic improvement by riding faster in half the time.
I haven't really got the stomach for many above TT efforts 4-6mins intervals. But in contrast I'll do 2 x 20's and hour of power efforts all year round.

So in terms of lactate threshold development your best friend is Number 2. Do you really need 2 lots of 3hr-5hr steady eddie efforts a week. I doubt it. I'd swap one of them for another No 2 ride. I wouldn't go anywhere near a 30sec-1min interval unless I was planning to do a pursuit or crit race or I was bored and just wanted to threshen up my training program. Which endurance rider wants to be fast for a minute?? No 3's are great for increasing both Vo2max and lactate threshold but I wouldn't start them until 6 weeks before my key events.

BeaconRuth

Toks wrote:

Do you really need 2 lots of 3hr-5hr steady eddie efforts a week?

And yet, strangely, I've done some of my best 10 mile TTs after a period which includes lots of 3hr-5hr rides around 18mph - exactly what Garetjax proposes. If someone has the time and inclination to do rides like that I would rarely dissuade them - especially in winter. If they haven't got the time or the inclination, then that's another matter.

Ruth

Shavedlegs

I managing to squeeze a 20 minute turbo session into my lunch hours. I alternate between 1 minute intervals, and a 1x20 session.

No idea how good a plan it is as it is only week one, but I thought 1 minute intervals would be good for power/strength. The 1 x 20 I hope will help the lactate threashold.

It's only 20minutes so I suspect any benefit will be limited -sadly I have to snatch every moment so no 3 hour rides for me whatever the weather.

Hi Toks.

Alex

garetjax

Can I just check the pace for the two rides it is suggested I focus on :

sweetspot ride: is this just below threshold, like a high tempo ride? I have been doing rides lately of 1-1.5 hours on a local 25 TT course, averaging ~ 21mph. I think that's a sweetspot ride but not sure. Anyway I find them quite hard, especially toward the end of a 1.5hr session and I think they're doing me some good.

2x20s: I am doing these at time trial pace on my local 10TT course, averaging 23mph.

Other question is what sort of rides to do for Power. I think I lack Power as I struggle to do my time trials in high gears.
I read in Cycling Weekly about doing 5minute repeats in a high gear, cadence of 70. I have a hill nearby that takes about 5mins and might give it a try, say 5x5 mins pushing up in a high gear. Maybe do this in Winter before moving to intervals. What do you think?

Cougar

At the end of the day you pays your money and takes your choice. We all believe in the training methods we choose otherwise why would we use them. BUT what we choose is governed as much by our comfort zones than what we know deep down works.

Sometimes you have to go outside those comfort zones to progress to a higher level. When you start winning lots of open races, maybe break some course records, take a couple of RRA records, win championships. Well then just maybe along the way you have stumbled across some decent training methods that work.

Toks

Shavedlegs wrote:

I managing to squeeze a 20 minute turbo session into my lunch hours. I alternate between 1 minute intervals, and a 1x20 session.

Hi Alex I'm not sure how many 1 min off 1 min sessions you do any whether your good fitness levels are because of these efforts or in spite of them. I'm a 2nd cat now so I'll see you in races next year

Toks

garetjax wrote:

Can I just check the pace for the two rides it is suggested I focus on :

sweetspot ride: is this just below threshold, like a high tempo ride? I have been doing rides lately of 1-1.5 hours on a local 25 TT course, averaging ~ 21mph. I think that's a sweetspot ride but not sure. Anyway I find them quite hard, especially toward the end of a 1.5hr session and I think they're doing me some good.

2x20s: I am doing these at time trial pace on my local 10TT course, averaging 23mph.

Other question is what sort of rides to do for Power. I think I lack Power as I struggle to do my time trials in high gears.
I read in Cycling Weekly about doing 5minute repeats in a high gear, cadence of 70. I have a hill nearby that takes about 5mins and might give it a try, say 5x5 mins pushing up in a high gear. Maybe do this in Winter before moving to intervals. What do you think?

I'm not sure what you mean by power. Assuming your not freewheeling down hill or or being pushed along by a tail wind ,whenever your turning the pedals be at 20mph or 10mph you're putting out power. For more aerobic power your looking at 1,2 and 3 if its anaerobic power that means number 4. Ridingfor 5 mins uphill at 70RPM will make you good at doing just that. If thats what you need to do in your chosen events then then that type of training makes sense.

Toks

BeaconRuth wrote:

Toks wrote:

Do you really need 2 lots of 3hr-5hr steady eddie efforts a week?

And yet, strangely, I've done some of my best 10 mile TTs after a period which includes lots of 3hr-5hr rides around 18mph - exactly what Garetjax proposes. If someone has the time and inclination to do rides like that I would rarely dissuade them - especially in winter. If they haven't got the time or the inclination, then that's another matter.

Ruth

Yep no problems with that if you've got the time and inclination. A lot of time however thats all some people will do and miss out on the benefit provided by shorter faster rides.

Cougar

What are we talking about here?

If you have 8 hours available training time then divide it up as you will. Unless I'm mistaken no one is suggesting riding 8 hours at a moderate pace all the time month in month out.

For all those 2 x 20 devotees please enlighten me as to how many of these you do in a day, week, month winter/summer or whatever? And do you do these exclusively? In an overall training plan/strategy it's no different than tempo training on the road, but I would be surprised that if that's all you do whether this training strategy wins you anything at all.

On the other hand all the winners that I know (without exception) include aerobic base training in their training plan.

Toks

Cougar wrote:

On the other hand all the winners that I know (without exception) include aerobic base training in their training plan.

A 2 x 20 ride is still an aerobic ride but admittedly its a little bit further along the intensity continuum. I'm not suggesting peeps don't do 3-5 hr rides - I'm just suggesting that moderate intensity efforts in the 1-2 hour range are highly effective and induce physiological gains that you can get lower down the continuum. Each to their own of course. Its a trade off if you've got lots of time go steady and long. Not much time - shortish and fast

Alex_Simmons/RST

Cougar wrote:

What are we talking about here?

If you have 8 hours available training time then divide it up as you will. Unless I'm mistaken no one is suggesting riding 8 hours at a moderate pace all the time month in month out.

For all those 2 x 20 devotees please enlighten me as to how many of these you do in a day, week, month winter/summer or whatever? And do you do these exclusively? In an overall training plan/strategy it's no different than tempo training on the road, but I would be surprised that if that's all you do whether this training strategy wins you anything at all.

On the other hand all the winners that I know (without exception) include aerobic base training in their training plan.

I suspect it's a matter of loose definitions. A "2 x 20" is pretty loosely defined as it tells us how many and how long but nothing much about the intensity, which is the most important aspect.

I suspect some think of them as going as hard as you can for 20-min. To me that's a mistake (which is what I think you're getting at). Done right, they are just solid aerobic workouts that are sustainable over the course of a training block and akin to doing a hardish tempo effort or some longer climbs on an endurance ride.

Like Ruth, I've also make really good gains in TT power with very little structured riding at that level of intensity. Solid endurance and tempo riding does wonders for me with a little racing thrown in for fun.

Nevertheless, there is a time and a place for harder TT level efforts. But not as base endurance work.

Shavedlegs

I'm getting into TTs next year, because I can't fit long rides into my schedule. I assumed that a 2 hour ride would be long enough for endurance as the actuall race should last only 1 hr.

Toks, Let me know what races you plan to do - PM me. Although I can't train properly for a RR, I ride for you and get in some training at the same time when I can. I've only managed one race since the Nocturne but could make one or two next year.

Sorry for getting of the subject.

A.

Cougar

Shavedlegs wrote:

I'm getting into TTs next year, because I can't fit long rides into my schedule. I assumed that a 2 hour ride would be long enough for endurance as the actuall race should last only 1 hr.
Toks, Let me know what races you plan to do - PM me. Although I can't train properly for a RR, I ride for you and get in some training at the same time when I can. I've only managed one race since the Nocturne but could make one or two next year.

Sorry for getting of the subject.

A.

I used to win TT's up to 100 miles on rides of only 2 hours. On the other hand I would ride them nearly every day and sometimes do 2 a day.

Toks

Cougar wrote:

I used to win TT's up to 100 miles on rides of only 2 hours. On the other hand I would ride them nearly every day and sometimes do 2 a day.

cool, what kind of intensity/PE or % of max heart rate would those 2 hour rides be?

Shavedlegs

I used to win TT's up to 100 miles on rides of only 2 hours. On the other hand I would ride them nearly every day and sometimes do 2 a day.

Bang goes my only excuse.