Can anyone offer advice: I'm stuck

milton50

Hi guys,

After reading these forums and the advice given for a couple of months I felt like I had a good idea of what training I needed to do but at the moment I just feel a bit lost.

My main interest is in 10m TT's, partly because I like riding against myself but also because it should be a good way of gaining power for longer races.

I can't afford a turbo with a power meter (I am a poor student ) and so everything I do is on perceived effort and speed. Now after the last 10 or so weeks I've been doing 10 min intervals at around or slightly above time trial pace and 5 min intervals at a fair bit above time trial pace. During this time I have noticeably felt my legs getting more powerful and I can sustain a higher speed for longer. But when I ride a 10m TT course my time has hardly budged at all! Literally 30 seconds over 10 weeks. I just can't understand it. Every week I feel strong in training and I think 'right this is the week where I make a big jump' and then about 10 mins into my time trial (which I start at a steady pace) my legs just feel hollow and I fall back to my usual pace. What makes it more confusing is that when I finish my time trial I'm hardly out of breath at all! Normal breathing is resumed within 5 mins.

I'm lost :?

Cougar

As someone who has spent many hours doing strength exercises; many hours on a bike in all weathers creating an aerobic base; paid attention to detail on riding technique, cadence, smooth pedalling, and entered many races from 10 miles to 100 miles to build experience and learn pace judging skills; and suffered many months of the hard discipline of structured intervals and tempo rides. Well after all that and then for someone to come along after just 10 weeks of doing some interval training to turn in a performance would be hard to take.

In other words life ain't that simple. Do the above for 12 months then come back and see if you have improved or not

gabriel959

Milton50 wrote:

Hi guys,

After reading these forums and the advice given for a couple of months I felt like I had a good idea of what training I needed to do but at the moment I just feel a bit lost.

My main interest is in 10m TT's, partly because I like riding against myself but also because it should be a good way of gaining power for longer races.

I can't afford a turbo with a power meter (I am a poor student ) and so everything I do is on perceived effort and speed. Now after the last 10 or so weeks I've been doing 10 min intervals at around or slightly above time trial pace and 5 min intervals at a fair bit above time trial pace. During this time I have noticeably felt my legs getting more powerful and I can sustain a higher speed for longer. But when I ride a 10m TT course my time has hardly budged at all! Literally 30 seconds over 10 weeks. I just can't understand it. Every week I feel strong in training and I think 'right this is the week where I make a big jump' and then about 10 mins into my time trial (which I start at a steady pace) my legs just feel hollow and I fall back to my usual pace. What makes it more confusing is that when I finish my time trial I'm hardly out of breath at all! Normal breathing is resumed within 5 mins.

I'm lost :?

I have the same problem, I usually start TT and do really well for the first 10 min (probably an average of 25mph) but then I go nearly dead for about 5 min (and go down to 16/17mph). By the end I am feeling fine and probably doing more like 20/21mph.

I have just started though

sub55

good answer cougar.


milton 50 , over many years i have been fortunate enough to have been in the same company as many of the top testers in the country. now the conversation invariably comes around to training.some will say ,it`s their long 20 mins turbo sessions and others as weird and wonderful as reflexology . but the common thread with all these people is their arobic base. which normally comprises of about 3 hrs a day, at roughly 80% of max.
one former national champion and comp record holder ,once told me that intervals are great at tweaking what you all ready have . however ,it wont give it to you. to get it in the first place ,you need a strong arobic base.

also bare in mind ,that the power required = to the cube of the speed. so to go alittle bit quicker ,you need masses more power.

milton50

comprises of about 3 hrs a day, at roughly 80% of max

Ok, cheers sub55. I haven't done a lot of work for that time period at that level of effort. Looks like I'll be busy over the winter.

I have the same problem, I usually start TT and do really well for the first 10 min (probably an average of 25mph) but then I go nearly dead for about 5 min (and go down to 16/17mph). By the end I am feeling fine and probably doing more like 20/21mph.

That is exactly my experience.

Cougar: I'm not looking to be a national champion in 10 weeks but since this is my first summer of decent training this should be the period where I can make the biggest gains. I should be making more progress.

Cougar

Milton50 wrote:

Cougar: I'm not looking to be a national champion in 10 weeks but since this is my first summer of decent training this should be the period where I can make the biggest gains. I should be making more progress.

Your biggest gains will be next year provided you are serious about building an aerobic base over the winter months. If you consider your training zones as a pyramid then the bigger the base you can manage then the higher the top will be. Most of your riding should be moderate pace so you can do more of it.

You can do 2 x 20 or other intervals until you're blue in the face but IMO your potential will be limited without the longer slower miles. At the moment you are mystified by your lack of progress. I am not. More and harder is a trap we all fall into in our quest for better performances. Not fair is it?

After high intensity training the body needs to recover before there are gains in race performance. Hammer yourself in training without due regard to recovery and I mean maybe two or three days with easy riding and you may have the opposite effect of what you wish to achieve.

NJK

Milton50 wrote:

comprises of about 3 hrs a day, at roughly 80% of max

Ok, cheers sub55. I haven't done a lot of work for that time period at that level of effort. Looks like I'll be busy over the winter.

I have the same problem, I usually start TT and do really well for the first 10 min (probably an average of 25mph) but then I go nearly dead for about 5 min (and go down to 16/17mph). By the end I am feeling fine and probably doing more like 20/21mph.

That is exactly my experience.

Cougar: I'm not looking to be a national champion in 10 weeks but since this is my first summer of decent training this should be the period where I can make the biggest gains. I should be making more progress.

It sounds like you could be falling into the trap of trying to beat pb's every ride or every tt. Even though i wouldn't class an interval of 10-20mins as strictly high-intensity they can be quite draining especially if you try to include them in every session without structure. Take a step back, work out how many hours you have available to train. Decent gains in long tt power will come from consistent training over a number of months and don't have to be directly at threshold pace.

milton50

Cougar:

Ok, fair points. Thanks for your advice. By the way I've been trying to put into practice another facet of your advice and training with a slightly higher cadence than I'm used to and I'm starting to see the merits of it. There seems to be a stage where it feels uncomfortable but if you get past that then it's so much easier to get into a smooth rhythm.

Alex_Simmons/RST

Milton50 wrote:

I have the same problem, I usually start TT and do really well for the first 10 min (probably an average of 25mph) but then I go nearly dead for about 5 min (and go down to 16/17mph). By the end I am feeling fine and probably doing more like 20/21mph.

That is exactly my experience.

That is simply the most common pacing mistake made in TTs.

You go out, feel good, cruch along at a high speed, then it catches up with you big time and you are forced to slow down a lot in order to recover before eventually being able to pick it up.

The time lost in doing this can be considerable. Pacing is a "skill" that need practice.

You need to learn how to manage the first few minutes of a TT. It will seem really easy (for a TT) but before long, the sensations of hard riding will kick in, except this time you won't need to slow down.

It is better to go out a little conservatively and pick up the effort, than to go out too hard.

richa

Cougar wrote:

Well after all that and then for someone to come along after just 10 weeks of doing some interval training to turn in a performance would be hard to take.

In other words life ain't that simple. Do the above for 12 months then come back and see if you have improved or not

A little harsh perhaps. The guy only wants to improve on his current times, not be world champ by the end of the season.

In my experience there is as much capacity to improve at the begginning as later. These will come due to initial increases in fitnes, together with advances in other areas - i.e. pacing.

As an aside, I don't understand training priciples as to why, if you want to cycle fast over 10miles/25 mins it is very important to practice over 100miles/6hrs to improve performance?

idaviesmoore

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

Milton50 wrote:

It is better to go out a little conservatively and pick up the effort, than to go out too hard.

This has been the mantra that I have lived by since suffering some truely dreadful pace f@ck ups

Cougar

RichA wrote:

In my experience there is as much capacity to improve at the begginning as later. These will come due to initial increases in fitnes, together with advances in other areas - i.e. pacing.

As an aside, I don't understand training priciples as to why, if you want to cycle fast over 10miles/25 mins it is very important to practice over 100miles/6hrs to improve performance?

What experience have you had re race performance improvements?

You don't have to ride 100 miles in one go. I never did. I have ridden 1500miles a month during the winter months which is an average of 50 miles a day @ 2.5 hours/3 hours, sometimes once a day, twice a day or even three times a day. BTW you can't hope to do interval training at the same time as putting in lots of miles.

This helps to create good technique and provide an aerobic base. And this rom my experience translates into race performances that win races.

As an aside have you won any races?

richa

Cougar wrote:

What experience have you had re race performance improvements?

As an aside have you won any races?

Not sure the relevence of these comments.

The OP is doing TT's. I have experience of riding from one point to another as quickly as I can.

The OP is frustrated that his "time has hardly budged at all". I don't know whether he is doing 35mins or 20mins for his for '10'. Whether the OP is looking to win a race or just avoid being last.

I am writing about the ability to improve when you start something new. I believe that improvement tends to start pretty immediately as power and endurance increase. I don't understand why performance would remain stagnant for a year and then start to improve?

Anyhow, I don't want to start an argument, more that I feel that Milton should be able to improve in his first 10-12 weeks and want to encourage.

Milton - what is your 10 mile TT? - i.e. a 30 second improvement on what? Is there any chance that you are overtraining & going into the TT's a little fatigued?

Cougar

RichA wrote:

Cougar wrote:

What experience have you had re race performance improvements?

As an aside have you won any races?

Not sure the relevence of these comments.

The OP is doing TT's. I have experience of riding from one point to another as quickly as I can.

The OP is frustrated that his "time has hardly budged at all". I don't know whether he is doing 35mins or 20mins for his for '10'. Whether the OP is looking to win a race or just avoid being last.

I am writing about the ability to improve when you start something new. I believe that improvement tends to start pretty immediately as power and endurance increase. I don't understand why performance would remain stagnant for a year and then start to improve?

Anyhow, I don't want to start an argument, more that I feel that Milton should be able to improve in his first 10-12 weeks and want to encourage.

Milton - what is your 10 mile TT? - i.e. a 30 second improvement on what? Is there any chance that you are overtraining & going into the TT's a little fatigued?

You keep putting words in my mouth. Stagnant for a year? How is building an aerobic base over 3/4 months in the winter stagnating?

If you don't understand that's probably because you don't race. That's OK because If you did then you would understand about race performance improvement and building from one season to another.

BUT How can you come on here and give advice when you don't know what you're talking about? Sorry to be blunt but it's the truth.

richa

I don't have experience racing. Although I don't see why my training to improve my Richmond Park time cannot be a valid experience for training to improve a TT time.

Cougar wrote:

...races from 10 miles to 100 miles...
Do the above for 12 months then come back and see if you have improved or not

I'd like to think I haven't put words into your mouth. Anyhow, I'll bow out of this thread in case I give further bad advice and wish Milton all the best for his training & TT'ing.

milton50

Milton - what is your 10 mile TT? - i.e. a 30 second improvement on what? Is there any chance that you are overtraining & going into the TT's a little fatigued?

The course I use is actually 10.5 miles but I call it a 10. I can do it in 29:50 and about 10 weeks ago I was doing it in ~30:30. I have a day off before riding the actual TT, maybe I should give it two days.

I don't think you're arguing mutually exclusive things to be honest. I should be making the biggest improvements at this early stage but having said that that is only possible if I have done the correct aerobic base work and if I'm honest I really didn't do enough before starting intervals.

Infamous

tbh, you should be gaining more than 30 seconds in 10 weeks at this stage.

so a few questions milton:
1) how long have you been riding for?
2) how fit were you before you started cycling?
3) what build are you? are you tall and heavy or short and slight?
4) what is your typical weeks training regime?
5) Are you doing the TTs on a mountain bike or on a road bike in the drops or on the hoods or on TT bars etc ?

milton50

1) Well if you mean when was the first time I did any decent amount of cycling it was 3 summers ago. I used to do a 10 mile course with a big hill in it once a week. So I probably only did ~120 miles over the whole summer. Then I did nothing over the winter and spring. This is the first summer where I've been riding consistently I'd say.

2) Not very. I mean just going up a long flight of stairs and I was breathing harder than I should. Also I was smoking about 10 cigarettes a week in the 3-4 months before I started cycling this summer.

3) 5"10' and 80kg. I need to lose around a stone to get to a healthy weight I'd say.

4) In May/June time I started off doing my 10 mile route about 4 times a week and I got it down from 35 mins to 29 mins (so just thinking about it now I can do a course with a long steep hill in it in the same time as a flat TT :? ). Anyway then I did 2 laps of the same course around ten times and then 3 laps a couple of times.

Then I started getting into interval training. Now because I don't have a powermeter or HR monitor it's pretty inaccurate but I try to do 3x10 or 2x20 four times a week (weather permitting). Sometimes on one of the days I'll add 5 mins at a much higher effort or I'll do an hour of slightly less effort. I think the longest I've been on the bike all summer is when I rode to a TT course and then rode back after. That was about 1h45m.

5) A road bike mostly on the hoods, sometimes in the drops. Don't have aero bars or a helmet.

Infamous

It really sounds like you need some aerobic endurance. Something like 2-3 hours once per week at an effort that is easy but not slow, should be in your training. Failing that, just more time in the saddle will help, 4 times a week with no long rides doesn't sound like enough, imo.

As for the TT, try to use the drops more and more each time (or just get some cheap aero bars), this will make you faster and get you used to the stretching. Also work on your pacing, don't try and grind huge gears for 10 miles.

milton50

I reckon this is mostly to do with pacing you know. Last night I climbed and descended my local hill (~1.25 miles @ an average of 5%) four times in a row as fast as I could.

Then on the ride home I started off at a really smooth pace ~20 mph. I found it was really comfortable to hold it for around 20 mins and then for the last 5 mins I stepped it up to 25 mph without much trouble. That would easily have beat my current 10m TT time and that's after all the hill work. Hmm. The plot thickens.

Or I wonder if it's my warm-up. Maybe I should ride at a higher effort in the warm-up.