Sportive -v- Road Racing

pauln99

hi there

a quick bit of history - this is my first year of cycling after being inspired by a charity ride last year. i've done a lot of miles on the bike but without any plan, structure or a great deal of variation. i've completed a few sportives this year, the high point being the marmotte which i managed 8hrs20 or so.

i am now inspired to have a proper go at the marmotte next year - maybe targeting 7hr30 or so (the 15 minutes of stationary time will be the first thing to go!!). i've bought a whole load of cycling training books and have started to read through and collate the information that i think valuable from each (as a side note i was thinking about creating a wiki which i thought might be useful) with a view to putting together a decent training plan for the coming winter and new year.

however, the question (here's a man that knows howto be succinct) - all of the books that i have bought are focused on training for road racing. i'm guessing that the demands of road racing, especially the anaerobic aspects, are less critical for my target rides.

can anyone tell me the areas that i should target so that i can do the business on the marmotte next year?

thanks

paul

Kléber

Road racing will push you harder than anything else. If you want a fast ride in the Marmotte, aim to try longer, harder road races. Probably all those who do very well in the Marmotte are racers on holiday, not "sportive" weekenders.

SteveR_100Milers

You could also argue that a sportive is simply a long hilly TT, all depends on whether you are in a train or on your own....either way, participating in racing be it TT or RR the benefits to your sportive performance will be significant. Most club cyclists that I know use Sportives as long distance training rides.

richa

Whilst I agree that those that do well in the Marmotte are probably racers, I think paul makes a good point.

Completing the Marmotte in >7hrs is unlikely to require the anaerobic fitness levels that a racer requies to respond to breaks. In a race if you miss the break that can be game over. In the Marmotte if you miss a bunch there is another one just behind.

I believe the Marmotte is a test of aerobic fitness, rather than both aerobic & anaerobic that is tested in a race.

Therefore idealy training should be similar to as described in your books, except with a greater focus on the aerobic/endurance element.

pauln99

Rich

Thanks. I think Kleber is correct that the fastest guys that complete the Marmotte are more than likely very good road racers.

However, that does not mean to say that their training enables them to perform at their potential for that specific event, but rather this is a happy byproduct.

How much better would road racers be if they specifically trained with the Marmotte in mind?

Cheers

Paul

richa

I reckon not much better. But they may require less training. i.e. Same amount of aerobic training, less anaerobic training.

However, it is different for the likes of us, as we have time constraints (jobs, families, etc) that mean where we focus plays an important part on the effectiveness of our training.

I too am considering pushing for a good performance at next year's Marmotte after crashing out this year with just 1k to go. See this topic for some more thoughts on performing at the Marmotte.

APIII

1k to go? what happened? You must have been gutted

richa

I will write it up in my Marmotte blog in full (been bone idle up until now).

But, in short...
With 2k to go put the hammer down to ensure that I got Silver (10:35). 1k later I collapsed, fell off the bike, got up, had "canaries flying round my head", walked my bike a few yards, fell again, passed out. Woke up 5mins later with oxygen mask on and ambulance crew trying to resuss me. Ambulance ride to the finish & 2hrs in the med centre and I was free.

Gutted at the time. Pragmatic about it now. I enjioyed the day. I put everyting in to the ride. What more can I ask for?

bahzob

I did the Marmotte first time this year targetting 7:30 and pretty much hit it on button at 7:34.

Did this (under guidance from Beaconruth to whom many thanks) by focussing training specifically on what the event requires. So no you dont really need any short sharp training because you wont do any of that. Rather you will be doing long (1-2 hour) steady state intervals (aka Glandon/Galibier/Alpe D'Huez) with varying levels of recovery between.

What you will need to do is: find your one hour pace (best way is ride a 25TT). Use this as a bench mark to:
- do 2 hour rides at anywhere from 70% to 90% of this pace
- do the famous 2 x 20s at this pace or just above.

Above said (and slightly contrary to it) next time I do it I will be targetting a sub 7 hour time and then I am planning to learn from comparing the performance of a "real racer" with mine.

Andrew Bye (occasionally of this forum) posted a time of 6.20 and finished 9th (top Brit) this year. His stats are here:

http://andrewbye.blogspot.com/2008/07/and-now-for-some-numbers.html

All ends up they are pretty impressive but what I take from them is how close to the limit the ride was done at. I reckon he climbed at something like 90% of his max while I adopted a far more conservative 75% (more here)
http://mr-miff-on-tour.blogspot.com/2008/07/marmotte-compared-to-best_17.html

I can imagine this is where the road racing is of benefit, (quite apart from the training benefits) is that the experience of pushing yourself to the limit and beyond gives you a good feel for how hard to push yourself and a higher pain tolerance when on the limit. And I guess the competitive instinct helps gets the adrenaline going as well. Of course this can be a high risk strategy and I would guess that some will have pushed it too hard and suffered as a result (as I think Andrew did last year according to his blog)

So next time I do the Marmotte I will include some more road racing ** in my prep and do the long 1-2 hour sessions at 90% power instead of the 70-80 I did this year.

** However (and coming back to the OP) I will still not spend much time training on sprints and short intervals. My genes and age rule me out as a sprinter so my races will be 4th cat and my main efforts are likely to be doomed to failure attempts to break away with a couple of km to go.

pauln99

bahzob

many thanks for the detailed response and congratulations on a great ride.

who or what is beaconruth and how can i get some of that :-)?

i've added your blog to my list of resources so i will give it a proper read shortly.

when you say 70-90%, presumably you're measuring power or heart rate rather than pace? did you build the intensity as the season progressed?

sprints and short intervals are out - yay :-).

did you do any turbo training?

thanks again and apologies for pestering your with more questions

cheers

paul

Bronzie

pauln99 wrote:

who or what is beaconruth and how can i get some of that :-)?

Ruth Eyles - posts on here as "Beaconruth" - cycling coach and good time trialler
http://www.rutheyles.co.uk/

wildmoustache

RichA wrote:

I will write it up in my Marmotte blog in full (been bone idle up until now).

But, in short...
With 2k to go put the hammer down to ensure that I got Silver (10:35). 1k later I collapsed, fell off the bike, got up, had "canaries flying round my head", walked my bike a few yards, fell again, passed out. Woke up 5mins later with oxygen mask on and ambulance crew trying to resuss me. Ambulance ride to the finish & 2hrs in the med centre and I was free.

Gutted at the time. Pragmatic about it now. I enjioyed the day. I put everyting in to the ride. What more can I ask for?

RichA - do you know what caused this? Sounds like it could well be dangerous. be careful!

richa

Insuffieient oxygen meant I fainted.

CPU (brain) said 'not enough' oxygen and shut down auxillary limbs (arms & legs)...

oldwelshman

RichA wrote:

I reckon not much better. But they may require less training. i.e. Same amount of aerobic training, less anaerobic training.

However, it is different for the likes of us, as we have time constraints (jobs, families, etc) that mean where we focus plays an important part on the effectiveness of our training.

I too am considering pushing for a good performance at next year's Marmotte after crashing out this year with just 1k to go. See this topic for some more thoughts on performing at the Marmotte.

Wow Rich, I heard the ambulance and heard some one bombed 1k from top, there were a few bombed out in the food tent afterwards after. Good luck for next year.

I was thinking of doing Marmotte again next year to target 7:30 but did not like the fact there is limited routes to ride in the area for the days before, my fault for staying ontop of Alpe
Interested in the Colorado 6 day and it's nice to do variety of rides and not get stucj doing same ride every year to beat last years time

wildmoustache

oldwelshman wrote:

RichA wrote:

I reckon not much better. But they may require less training. i.e. Same amount of aerobic training, less anaerobic training.

However, it is different for the likes of us, as we have time constraints (jobs, families, etc) that mean where we focus plays an important part on the effectiveness of our training.

I too am considering pushing for a good performance at next year's Marmotte after crashing out this year with just 1k to go. See this topic for some more thoughts on performing at the Marmotte.

Wow Rich, I heard the ambulance and heard some one bombed 1k from top, there were a few bombed out in the food tent afterwards after. Good luck for next year.


I was thinking of doing Marmotte again next year to target 7:30 but did not like the fact there is limited routes to ride in the area for the days before, my fault for staying ontop of Alpe
Interested in the Colorado 6 day and it's nice to do variety of rides and not get stucj doing same ride every year to beat last years time

there are loads of good rides in that area OWM. i know what you mean about the beating time thing though.

wildmoustache

RichA wrote:

Insuffieient oxygen meant I fainted.

CPU (brain) said 'not enough' oxygen and shut down auxillary limbs (arms & legs)...

full marks for pushing yourself!! has this ever happened to you before? I wonder if some people are just more pre-disposed to it than others?

richa

wildmoustache wrote:

full marks for pushing yourself!! has this ever happened to you before? I wonder if some people are just more pre-disposed to it than others?

Nope. With hindsight, had I backed off a bit I'd have snuck in under the Silver time.

I put mine down to:
1. Low fitness level
2. Exteme exhertion
3. Altitude & heat

I spent two hours recouperating in the med centre on oxygen, where they wanted my oxygenated blood% to return to >90% for 15mins after being taken off the O2.

Bronzie

oldwelshman wrote:

there were a few bombed out in the food tent afterwards

Are you referring to me? :twisted:

APIII

Could have been me. I was the one with the untouched bowl of pasta and the thousand yard stare

Bronzie

APIII wrote:

I was the one with the untouched bowl of pasta and the thousand yard stare

You were not alone

skavanagh.bikeradar

I had one of those stares too. I was like death warmed up. I managed to sneak over the finish line in 11.49 and that took some doing after blowing up halfway up the Alpe and struggling like mad all the rest of the way up. It took me 2h 27' to get up it.

I've got unfinished business with the Marmotte.

oldwelshman

Bronzie wrote:

oldwelshman wrote:

there were a few bombed out in the food tent afterwards

Are you referring to me? :twisted:

You looked good compared to some I saw after you left Rich
In particular one 18 yearold, cannot remember his name, was taken off to hospital.

bahzob

pauln99 wrote:

bahzob

many thanks for the detailed response and congratulations on a great ride.
who or what is beaconruth and how can i get some of that :-)?
i've added your blog to my list of resources so i will give it a proper read shortly.
when you say 70-90%, presumably you're measuring power or heart rate rather than pace? did you build the intensity as the season progressed?
sprints and short intervals are out - yay :-).
did you do any turbo training?
thanks again and apologies for pestering your with more questions
cheers

paul

who or what is beaconruth and how can i get some of that :-)? As per post above Ruth Eyles, who gives very good coaching advice (and is a pretty good rider, National Champ)

70-90%measuring : I use power but you could use HR or just perceived effort (or speed if on a turbo). Its getting the reference point that is the hardest part. That's why doing a 25 mile time trial is such a good marker.

Build intensity as season progresses: Yes. However one thing I will change next year is move towards doing more intense (in the up to 90% zone) work sooner in the season and aim to train at 90% rather than the 70s. I think I can do this as I now have a good endurance base. You may benefit from doing more endurance work. (If you want to judge this and have a HR monitior do a 2-3 hour ride at a steady pace. Note the average HR in the first and second halves of the ride. If they are not within 5% of each other then you would benefit from more long steady rides. (see a bit more here:
http://www2.trainingbible.com/pdf/AeT_Training.pdf)

Turbo training: yes but cant say I like it. Its good (but horrible) for 2x20s.

mozwyn69

All this talk has got me thinking I am going to have to do it again next year. I did 10.13 last year though could have probably knocked an hour off that had I not spent so much time stuffing myself and hanging around at the feeds. I didn't feel too great at the start so decided just to get around. I would be happy for a sub 9hr next time though how you 7.30 hr guys mange it is beyond me.

pauln99

bahzob

thanks again for your response.

i've already got in contact with ruth eyles and will almost definately be getting her to check over my plan for the year. thanks for the tip.

the AeT article is fantastic too.

thanks again and good luck for the coming year.

cheers

paul

knedlicky

pauln99 wrote:

i've bought a whole load of cycling training books ... however,...all of the books that i have bought are focused on training for road racing. i'm guessing that the demands of road racing, especially the anaerobic aspects, are less critical for my target rides.
can anyone tell me the areas that i should target so that i can do the business on the marmotte next year?

In the February 2006 issue of Velo magazine (the edition which had the entry form for that year’s Etape in it), there is training programme over 22 weeks to prepare you for the Etape. That year it went over the Izouard, and Lauteret with Alpe d’Huez as finish.

It was prepared by the Francaise de Jeux team trainer, Frederic Grappe, and has 4 variations – a programme for those who could only ride one weekend day, one for those who could ride both weekend days, one for those who could ride both weekend days and one weekday, and one for those who could ride both weekend days and two weekdays. The duration of the rides range from 1 hour to 7 hours and only 3 expect you to be in the Haute-Montagne, one the week before - which is possible if you arrange to arrive a week in advance.

I don’t see why the programme can’t be followed as training for any similar sportive, the Marmotte included. I still have a copy which I can scan if anyone is interested. Only thing is it’s all in French.
For anyone who can’t read French, the tabular training programme might be comprehensible with the help of a few words from a French-English dictionary, but they’d have difficulty with the accompanying text.

knedlicky

mozwyn69 wrote:

All this talk has got me thinking I am going to have to do it again next year. I did 10.13 last year though could have probably knocked an hour off that had I not spent so much time stuffing myself and hanging around at the feeds.

I hope to do the Vaujany next year but maybe I'll stick around longer too.
Seems you and I had similar problems, the cumulative time I spent at feeding stations was ridiculous, mainly because I was 20 mins at Bourg. With hindsight, I think I was hesitant to set off from there, because I was (unnecessarily as it turned out) overawed by the prospect of the final climb.

pauln99

knedlicky

thanks for the response to my question.

i would be extremely interested in seeing the velo article. i have tried the website but i can see not obvious way of getting a back issue - a scan would be awesome.

i'll even learn some french ;-)

cheers

paul

ps the french cycling mags are awesome aren't they?
pps anyone else think this month's cycling plus was the worst ever?

GeorgeShaw

pauln99 wrote:

knedlicky

thanks for the response to my question.

i would be extremely interested in seeing the velo article. i have tried the website but i can see not obvious way of getting a back issue - a scan would be awesome.

i'll even learn some french ;-)

cheers

paul

ps the french cycling mags are awesome aren't they?
pps anyone else think this month's cycling plus was the worst ever?

+1. Can you scan the article and PM me?

knedlicky

bahzob wrote:

my main efforts are likely to be doomed to failure attempts to break away with a couple of km to go.

You write in your ‘compared-to-best’ link “I am more used to pacing myself to finish rather than finish fast” and “I think I made myself take it easy on the last climbs for fear of blowing up”..
Isn’t this the right approach anyway, at least until the last few km? It's how I behaved when I had a licence - if I’d ridden to my limit, then at best I'd have been hanging on at the back of some basically better group, exhausted, and with not much feeling of satisfaction.

That's back over 12 years ago and nowadays I do cyclosportives, duathlons and running races, where the overall standards are lower, and where I find many competitors don’t keep something in reserve. This means I can often pass or break away from them towards the end and stay clear (just like you intend to attempt). These are now minor private moments of glory for me, so good luck to you!