Cycling Weekly / Tour of Britain

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  • Jez mon
    Jez mon Posts: 3,809
    iainf72 wrote:
    Jez mon wrote:

    Basso, Petchacci and DiLuca have done very little to convince us they are sorry and that they have turned the corner. People will complain about Millar until the end of time, but give me Millar over, any of those three.

    Millar is different because he's admitted something and done his time. So in that respect he's got room to talk.

    Basso - Well, imagine if he had told the truth. There would be no CSC, would there?

    Probably not, and it would be a shame if CSC had been forced out of the sport. OTOH few poeple seem to believe they are a clean team!

    At the end of the day, the issue is tremendously complicated, how do you decide who to ban and for how long? What is truly an accidental few extra puffs and what is a purposeful attempt to cover up doping? Which anti doping regimes are just PR exercises?

    On a side note, what if it became clear that a certain american seven time TdF winner was a doper...american cycling would suffer tremendously.
    You live and learn. At any rate, you live
  • moray_gub
    moray_gub Posts: 3,328
    iainf72 wrote:
    Moray Gub wrote:

    It would seem your somewhat obsessional hatred of all thing T-Mobile/High Road/CC is blinding you to the possibility that some riders have got absolutely nothing to admit.

    Possibly.

    Big deal he got an armchair ride to the finish to the finish where he won two man sprint . If thats all you can come up with regarding GH doping then i think you are clutching at some pretty frail straws. Oh and as for Di Luca he has some highly irregular hormone levels to answer to at last years Giro as far as i am aware GH hasnt had to answer to that kind of thing.Not that im a fan of GH just cant be arsed with people flinging accusations around on the flimsiest of evidence on in this case no evidence at all.

    cheers
    MG
    Gasping - but somehow still alive !
  • andyp
    andyp Posts: 10,549
    Moray Gub wrote:
    Big deal he got an armchair ride to the finish to the finish where he won two man sprint . If thats all you can come up with regarding GH doping then i think you are clutching at some pretty frail straws. Oh and as for Di Luca he has some highly irregular hormone levels to answer to at last years Giro as far as i am aware GH hasnt had to answer to that kind of thing.Not that im a fan of GH just cant be arsed with people flinging accusations around on the flimsiest of evidence on in this case no evidence at all.
    Are you a member of the Flat Earth Society?
  • moray_gub
    moray_gub Posts: 3,328
    andyp wrote:
    Moray Gub wrote:
    Big deal he got an armchair ride to the finish to the finish where he won two man sprint . If thats all you can come up with regarding GH doping then i think you are clutching at some pretty frail straws. Oh and as for Di Luca he has some highly irregular hormone levels to answer to at last years Giro as far as i am aware GH hasnt had to answer to that kind of thing.Not that im a fan of GH just cant be arsed with people flinging accusations around on the flimsiest of evidence on in this case no evidence at all.
    Are you a member of the Flat Earth Society?

    Well lets have some evidence of GH doping and we will take it from there.

    cheers
    MG
    Gasping - but somehow still alive !
  • Ste_S
    Ste_S Posts: 1,173
    Ianf72, I'm mystified as to why you're still interested in Procycling.
  • andyp
    andyp Posts: 10,549
    Moray Gub wrote:
    Well lets have some evidence of GH doping and we will take it from there.
    I'd start with this if I were you;

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/Lance-Landis-In ... 795&sr=8-1

    Then maybe watch some footage from the 2004 Tour where 6' 4" 80 kg George Hincapie was dropping doped climbers on the Col d'Agnes.
  • iainf72
    iainf72 Posts: 15,784
    Ste_S wrote:
    Ianf72, I'm mystified as to why you're still interested in Procycling.

    I love it - I don't even find doping that objectionable to be honest.

    But I like to challenge people's thinking sometimes. Stimulates debate and what not.
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • iainf72
    iainf72 Posts: 15,784
    Moray Gub wrote:

    Oh and as for Di Luca he has some highly irregular hormone levels to answer to at last years Giro as far as i am aware GH hasnt had to answer to that kind of thing.Not that im a fan of GH just cant be arsed with people flinging accusations around on the flimsiest of evidence on in this case no evidence at all.

    Actually, Danilo had very low hormones levels which had restored themselves a few hours later, so CONI investigated whether he'd used an IV which is not allowed in Italy. CONI could not prove their case so he was cleared.
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • moray_gub
    moray_gub Posts: 3,328
    andyp wrote:
    Moray Gub wrote:
    Well lets have some evidence of GH doping and we will take it from there.
    I'd start with this if I were you;

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/Lance-Landis-In ... 795&sr=8-1

    Then maybe watch some footage from the 2004 Tour where 6' 4" 80 kg George Hincapie was dropping doped climbers on the Col d'Agnes.

    So no evidence then ok no problem .........move along here move along...........

    cheers
    MG
    Gasping - but somehow still alive !
  • moray_gub
    moray_gub Posts: 3,328
    iainf72 wrote:
    Moray Gub wrote:

    Oh and as for Di Luca he has some highly irregular hormone levels to answer to at last years Giro as far as i am aware GH hasnt had to answer to that kind of thing.Not that im a fan of GH just cant be arsed with people flinging accusations around on the flimsiest of evidence on in this case no evidence at all.

    Actually, Danilo had very low hormones levels which had restored themselves a few hours later, so CONI investigated whether he'd used an IV which is not allowed in Italy. CONI could not prove their case so he was cleared.

    Mmm so here we have actually something hard and fast and yet you give him the benefit of the doubt yet with GH we have not one of evidence (the walsh book isnt evidence btw nor is the stage were he sat on all day) yet you more ore less accuse him of taking PEDs.

    cheers
    MG
    Gasping - but somehow still alive !
  • andyp
    andyp Posts: 10,549
    Moray Gub wrote:
    So no evidence then ok no problem .........move along here move along...........
    You can choose to bury your head in the sand if you wish but there is enough evidence out there to indicate that the USPS team had a sophisticated doping program in place which would explain why a rider of Hincapie's build was able to put genuine mountain goats in trouble in the Tour. Hincapie, it should be noted, rode all seven Tours that Armstrong won.

    You might also want to ask T-Mobile directors why they chose to stop sponsorship of the team last year. One reason cited was that the anti-doping message they were spinning didn't fit well with the recruitment of Hincapie.
  • iainf72
    iainf72 Posts: 15,784
    Moray Gub wrote:

    Mmm so here we have actually something hard and fast and yet you give him the benefit of the doubt yet with GH we have not one of evidence (the walsh book isnt evidence btw nor is the stage were he sat on all day) yet you more ore less accuse him of taking PEDs.

    I'm not giving him the benefit of the doubt.

    People say DDL is a filthy doper yet he's not been found guilty of doping.

    Many others are in a similar position yet they're left alone.

    For what it's worth, I like George. Always hope he'll win a classic and shut everyone up. He's not likely to but it would please me if he did.
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • moray_gub
    moray_gub Posts: 3,328
    andyp wrote:
    Moray Gub wrote:
    So no evidence then ok no problem .........move along here move along...........
    You can choose to bury your head in the sand if you wish but there is enough evidence out there to indicate that the USPS team had a sophisticated doping program in place which would explain why a rider of Hincapie's build was able to put genuine mountain goats in trouble in the Tour. Hincapie, it should be noted, rode all seven Tours that Armstrong won.

    You might also want to ask T-Mobile directors why they chose to stop sponsorship of the team last year. One reason cited was that the anti-doping message they were spinning didn't fit well with the recruitment of Hincapie.

    Im sorry but just becuase you say it is doesnt make it so, one crap book and a few stages of climbing evidence does not make. I asked you for evidence so far you have come up with squat diddly.

    cheers
    MG
    Gasping - but somehow still alive !
  • andyp
    andyp Posts: 10,549
    Moray Gub wrote:
    Im sorry but just becuase you say it is doesnt make it so, one crap book and a few stages of climbing evidence does not make. I asked you for evidence so far you have come up with squat diddly.
    Actually I'm sorry for daring to suggest that a professional cyclist who rode with a team that won the Tour de France seven times in succession during the cleanest period professional cycling has ever known - Lance was the most tested athlete ever after all - might have actually doped. So sorry to have wasted your time.

    Back in the real world - I don't need to supply evidence because I'm arguing the toss with a few folk on an internet forum not trying to seek a conviction for sporting fraud or doping. That's the job of the relevant authorities, i.e. the UCI who've repeatedly shown how good they are at this. I know they have evidence but for reasons of expediency and in the interests of the sport, at least as they see it, they've chosen to do nothing.

    Professional cycling is at an interesting point in it's life - doping has obviously been endemic in the past 10-15 years yet now the sport has to take a stand against this if it wants to survive as a professional sport. This means that a lot of riders, such as Hincapie and Zabriskie (whom you refer to on another thread), are now riding for teams who have, or claim to have, a strict anti-doping policy and internal testing to back this up. Factor in that any rider who admits to doping gets a two year ban, as UCI rules state than an admission is equivalent to a positive test, and you can see why they might want to stay quiet. (We can also factor in, for Iain's sake, that no-one likes a grass).
  • Ste_S
    Ste_S Posts: 1,173
    Moray Gub wrote:
    Im sorry but just becuase you say it is doesnt make it so, one crap book and a few stages of climbing evidence does not make. I asked you for evidence so far you have come up with squat diddly.

    cheers
    MG

    It doesn't take a rocket scientist to look at the GC performances in the TdeF from the early 90's upwards to spot that there was a doping arms race going on.
  • FJS
    FJS Posts: 4,820
    Jez mon wrote:
    The problem with world champs would be that it needs a large city to be closed for a really long weekend! It's not just the men's road race, there is women and U23 Road races and TTs.
    Cities like Madrid and Stuttgart manage....
    I guess this is a bit off topic and for another thread...
  • moray_gub
    moray_gub Posts: 3,328
    Ste_S wrote:
    Moray Gub wrote:
    Im sorry but just becuase you say it is doesnt make it so, one crap book and a few stages of climbing evidence does not make. I asked you for evidence so far you have come up with squat diddly.

    cheers
    MG

    It doesn't take a rocket scientist to look at the GC performances in the TdeF from the early 90's upwards to spot that there was a doping arms race going on.

    I dont dispute that but thats not what is being alleged here what is being alleged here is that GH is part of a USPS/Disco organised doping programme from 1999-2005............who knows he may have but there is not one shred of HARD evidence going around to say so with any kind of authority. For what its worth you are as well saying you had a BJ from Princess Diana before she died.

    cheers
    MG
    Gasping - but somehow still alive !
  • Ste_S
    Ste_S Posts: 1,173
    Oh I agree, there isn't any evidence that will stand up in court.

    You'd have to be incredibly naive to think he didn't dope during his USPS/Disco days though
  • andyp
    andyp Posts: 10,549
    Moray Gub wrote:
    I dont dispute that but thats not what is being alleged here what is being alleged here is that GH is part of a USPS/Disco organised doping programme from 1999-2005............who knows he may have but there is not one shred of HARD evidence going around to say so with any kind of authority.

    That's not true though is it - there is hard evidence but you choose not to believe it.

    There is evidence in the public domain of the following;

    - traces of EPO in Armstrong's urine samples from the 1999 Tour, i.e. before the EPO urine test had been approved
    - tv footage of USPS team staff dumping medical waste in a bin during the Tour. It included packaging for Actovegin, a blood product derived from calves' blood
    - Armstrong testing postive for corticoids, only to be issued with a TUE post incident
    - the transcript of an IM conversation between two ex-USPS riders discussing the doping regime they and other riders had experienced at USPS
    - Armstrong's association with Dr Michele Ferrari, who was convicted of supplying PEDs to cyclists

    Do you want me to go on?
  • moray_gub
    moray_gub Posts: 3,328
    andyp wrote:
    Moray Gub wrote:
    I dont dispute that but thats not what is being alleged here what is being alleged here is that GH is part of a USPS/Disco organised doping programme from 1999-2005............who knows he may have but there is not one shred of HARD evidence going around to say so with any kind of authority.

    That's not true though is it - there is hard evidence but you choose not to believe it.

    There is evidence in the public domain of the following;

    - traces of EPO in Armstrong's urine samples from the 1999 Tour, i.e. before the EPO urine test had been approved
    - tv footage of USPS team staff dumping medical waste in a bin during the Tour. It included packaging for Actovegin, a blood product derived from calves' blood
    - Armstrong testing postive for corticoids, only to be issued with a TUE post incident
    - the transcript of an IM conversation between two ex-USPS riders discussing the doping regime they and other riders had experienced at USPS
    - Armstrong's association with Dr Michele Ferrari, who was convicted of supplying PEDs to cyclists

    Do you want me to go on?

    Yep i said hard evidence there is nothing in there indicative of a wholescale doping programme and anyway the retrospective 99 sample testing is so full of holes as to be totally inadmissable. Being associated with Ferrari isnt hard evidence of taking PEDs. Id hate to be in a court and in front of a jury with you in it if this is your idea of hard evidence. Maybe they did have an organised programme maybe they didnt but if they did youd think the hard evidence not tittle tattle would have been uncovered long before now. When considerering USPS/Disco you have to bear in mind the extreme anti Lance/american/USPS/Bryuneel that floats around on these and other boards.

    cheers
    MG
    Gasping - but somehow still alive !
  • G man
    G man Posts: 57
    You've probably seen this transcript already; make your own decision if you think USPS were dodgy or not.

    http://www.cbc.ca/sports/indepth/landis/instantmessage.html

    If you're looking for hard evidence of doping on this forum , you've come to the wrong place. Look at the bigger picture, look at the riders, trainers, soigneurs, listen to what riders say when asked about doping, look at their body language in interviews and look at the performances. Then play the "dodgy" , "clean", or "was dodgy, but now clean" game. We can't have hard evidence for every opinion we form on individuals, which is why this forum can be so interesting to read. I'm extremely anti-doping, think "big George" was probably dodgy, but still like him anyway. This forum can really screw you up.
    G man
    respectez le bitumen
  • G man
    G man Posts: 57
    Forgot to illustrate what I would expect clean riders to say regarding doping. Here's a good written quote from Adam Hansen (rider on Iain's favourite team).

    "Sponsors should not have to go, it's the doped riders that should be shot instead, in the kneecaps would be nice!"

    Link to quote

    http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2007/nov07/nov30news1

    In the TDF this year, he stopped on the ascent of Alpe d'Huez to say hello to his mum, then took her video camera and cycled the remainder while filming it - the guy is obviously cool.

    G man
    respectez le bitumen

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