Faster at 25TT than 10TT - i don't get it!

Richie G

Hi all,

This is starting to bug me now! It's my first season and everything's been going really well - except for 10 mile time trials! I just can't seem to get my head round them. I ride my club 10 most weeks and whilst i'm getting better, i'm inconsistant and relatively slower than in 25's. Every longer TT i've entered, i've improved both my own times and relatively to the opposition. For instance, there's a couple of guys at my club who are regularly 2 and 4 minutes quicker than me. Yet over 25 miles i'm generally only losing 3 and 7 minutes to them. I've looked long and hard at my results and this kind of thing is consistant throughout this year. I don't understand how i seem to pace the longer events better than a 10 - it's certainly not through lack effort! It's kind of come to a head this week, as i cracked my pre-season target for 25 miles last weekend - my new 25 PB is now a higher average speed than my 10 PB! :? Sorry to blather on - just wondered if anyone had any thoghts on this?

Cheers
Rich

andrewgturnbull

Hi there.

Two things to try:

- A Longer/More intense warm-up before your 10m TT
- Due some shorter/harder intervals in training - I'd recommend 6x3mins and 10x2mins at a pace faster than your 10m TT

Cheers, Andy

whyamihere

On the shorted distance, you're probably going out too hard, thinking you can push harder because it's only short, then blowing later on in the course. On the 25, you'll probably go out slower, because it's longer, this will mean that you're able to go faster on average for longer. Try putting in a bit less effort for the first 3 miles of the 10 and see what happens.

Richie G

On the shorted distance, you're probably going out too hard, thinking you can push harder because it's only short, then blowing later on in the course.

I think you've got a point there. I've learned to rein myself in a little in the opening miles, but find myself worrying that i'll lose time that i won't be able to make up later. Last week was great example; felt really strong to the turn (into a cross head wind) then suddenly lost all rhythm around 7 miles (despite having a tailwind!). Maybe i just need to have the courage to take those early miles easier!

A Longer/More intense warm-up before your 10m TT

My warm-up is still a bit of a work in progress. I'm trying to work out what works best for me - again, maybe i could experiment more with on club 10s. Cheers both!

Alex_Simmons/RST

Even though these are two primarily aerobic events, there are those riders who have a physiological difference in the amount of power they can produce over ~ 20-min vs what they can produce over ~ 1hour.

What I mean is, 1 hour power, as a percentage of what one is capable of producing for 20-min, can vary substantially from rider to rider but I'd say anywhere from 92-98% is typical. That's quite a big range when translated to power and then speed. It sounds like you are probably at the higher end of the range.

Some are naturally better at 10s, other at 25s.

The performance gap can be narrowed through training and how one structures prep leading up to such TTs. 10s need a fraction more freshness in the legs in my experience.

As has already been mentioned, pacing is critical as well.

Warm ups are a personal thing but in general, I think people do more than is really necessary. Weather conditions play a big part in what you do.

BeaconRuth

Have you ridden any 10s on any courses other than that very very hard and slow course your club uses for its club 10's? I would have an average slower over 10 miles than over 25 miles if I'd only ridden the K41. My 10 PB is exactly 2 mins faster than my best time on there, so take 2 mins off your 10 time and then see if you've still got a problem.

Ruth

Gary D

As Ruth has said, I would look at the differences between the 2 courses. It would be meaningless to compare otherwise.

I did my first 25 a couple of weeks ago and achieved exactly the same average speed as the regular 10 I do and I really wasn't expecting that.
The differences are that the 10 has 6 left hand turns and the road surface is very poor. The 25 is an out and back course with one island which you go straight across and the other is the turn around point. The road surface is also much better. Both courses are undulating.

In my opinion, the road surface makes a massive difference as I find it very difficult to get in to a smooth rythym if I am constantly avoiding potholes and getting my fillings shaken out!

I am sure if I did a 10 along a section of the 25 course then I would get a PB
(Wouldn't take much as I am still at snails pace anyway :oops: )

Gary.

Richie G

Have you ridden any 10s on any courses other than that very very hard and slow course your club uses for its club 10's?

Ermm... no! Not sure why everyone reckons it's so slow - it's not like it's that lumpy! My concern is that relative to other members with similar times to me over the longer distances, they are a good bit quicker on the K41. Our club website works out each riders average time, so you can do quite a good comparison. Therefore i wonder if i'm not riding to my potential. I'm sure i could get myself on a fast course and shatter my PB, but surely i'm only kidding myself? Maybe i'm trying to read to much into it - maybe, as Alex suggests i'm not as fresh for the 10's (a club 10 in the evening after a day at work and a 13 mile commute as opposed to an open 25 at the weekend when i can have a lie in first!).

Thanks everyone for your feedback. I think i'm just getting a bit frustrated that i've managed to hit all the targets i set for myself except this one (which i thought would be alot easier than my 25 target time!). I'm finding that balancing commuting, racing and training is more difficult than i imagined - i need to work out how i can do more structured training during the season for next year (i seem to be either TTing or recovering from TTing at the mo!)

Alex_Simmons/RST

Richie G wrote:

(i seem to be either TTing or recovering from TTing at the mo!)

Which is usually a recipie for declining form eventually, depending on how much work you had in the legs before race season began.

BeaconRuth

Rich -

My fastest av spd in a 10 on the K41 is 25.5mph.
My fastest av spd in a 25 is 27.0mph

So I'm in exactly the same boat as you. If you want to make comparisons between your 10 and 25 av speeds, you have to ride on similar courses. The K41 is indeed pan-flat, but the surface is very heavy and therefore slow. AND there is zero traffic on it. I know it doesn't seem like it should be a slow course but it is. These things make a massive difference. Everyone goes something like 1-2 minutes slower on there compared to faster courses.

Did you do your 25 PB in the Heanor Clarion event on Saturday, which is one of the fastest courses in the country - beautiful smooth DC all the way and with tons of traffic carrying you along? So it's OK to have all the advantages of a good course etc for your 25 target, but you're not allowed those advantages to achieve your 10 target?

Ruth

Richie G

Ahh, so it's the surface that's slow! You've got admit it's in a nice setting though!?! Now you put it like that, my logic doesn't seem very....logical! :? I actually did my 25 PB on the A25/20 on the A46 on a very hot afternoon (am i right in saying hot air has less resistance?). Not sure how quick a course that is (certainly a good bit faster than the sporting courses i've mainly done this year.). What bothers me is that other riders seem to be able to take more time out me in the club 10's than they do when we enter 25's. Part of this stems from people congratulating me on my weekend times and then suggesting that a low-mid 25 minute ride should be within my grasp. Instead i'm riding as hard as i can and turning in low 26's. I'm sure this is newbie impatience on my part (i am really enjoying my new sport), i just feel i should be able to do this!

Which is usually a recipie for declining form eventually, depending on how much work you had in the legs before race season began.

That's interesting Alex. I'd be keen to know how riders manage their time during the season. Friday afternoon, for instance is one of my best times to train, yet at the moment i'm normally having to take it easy before a TT.

Cheers all,
Rich

Alex_Simmons/RST

Richie G wrote:

(am i right in saying hot air has less resistance?).

At the same barometric pressure and altitude, yes.

Air density is what determines the level of air resistance at a given speed. Higher the density, the greater the power required to overcome the air resistance (or slower speed for same power).

Air density decreases with:
- increasing temperature
- reducing barometric pressure
- increasing altitude
- increasing humidity (but only by a little)

So a hot, humid, low pressure day at altitude presents very fast conditions (think of a summer storm cell). Not too high an altitude though as of course the amount of available oxygen reduces as well which can have a negative impact on aerobic performance.

SteveR_100Milers

Does O2 % change with altitude, or simply the air pressure and density?

andrewgturnbull

BeaconRuth wrote:

[snip]

AND there is zero traffic on it. I know it doesn't seem like it should be a slow course but it is. These things make a massive difference. Everyone goes something like 1-2 minutes slower on there compared to faster courses.

Did you do your 25 PB in the Heanor Clarion event on Saturday, which is one of the fastest courses in the country - beautiful smooth DC all the way and with tons of traffic carrying you along? So it's OK to have all the advantages of a good course etc for your 25 target, but you're not allowed those advantages to achieve your 10 target?

Ruth

Hi there.

No offence to you personally Ruth, but this is what I hate most about time trialling - riders deliberately picking 'fast' courses because of high traffic counts.

It's not a situation that could be sensibly defended on sporting or safety grounds.

I've only ever done one TT on a DC course and I hated it...

Cheers, Andy

Alex_Simmons/RST

SteveR_100Milers wrote:

Does O2 % change with altitude, or simply the air pressure and density?

just the density, so that there is simply less of everything.

steve_pushbiker

Pardon my ignorance... what is DC (in terms of a TT course)?

Richie G

No offence to you personally Ruth, but this is what I hate most about time trialling - riders deliberately picking 'fast' courses because of high traffic counts.

It's not a situation that could be sensibly defended on sporting or safety grounds.

I've only ever done one TT on a DC course and I hated it...

In fairness to Ruth, she has been quite critical on here about some of the busy DC courses, as well as encouraging me to take part in Midlands SPOCO events. Testers generally do seem attracted to faster courses - i recently took part in an open 25 on a great sporting course; only 25 starters! I really enjoyed that course, but some of the guys reckoned that the lack of PB potential kept people away.

Pardon my ignorance... what is DC (in terms of a TT course)?

Dual Carrigeways. (sorry- i appear to have forgotten how spell! :roll: ). In other words you can pick up a tow from the constant stream of lorries!

jonginge

DC=dual carriageway. Heavy but fast traffic can make a huge difference to your speed. Can be a bit scary though, especially at the turns

BeaconRuth

andrewgturnbull wrote:

No offence to you personally Ruth...........

None taken.......

........ but this is what I hate most about time trialling - riders deliberately picking 'fast' courses because of high traffic counts.

It's not a situation that could be sensibly defended on sporting or safety grounds.

I realise looking back on my replies to RichieG that they could be interpreted as me advocating racing on heavy-traffic dragstrips in order to record a fast time. That's not the case at all - I was just trying to point out that av speeds on different courses can be totally incomparable because the course and traffic conditions make such a massive difference. I really wasn't suggesting he should go and find a fast DC for his 10 - just that he shouldn't make the comparison. In fact the slow 10 course we were talking is one of my favourites.

I agree with you 100% Andrew.

RichieG wrote:

i recently took part in an open 25 on a great sporting course; only 25 starters! I really enjoyed that course, but some of the guys reckoned that the lack of PB potential kept people away.

Undoubtedly true - and yet you can't get in an event on a dragstrip without a very fast qualifying time. Shaving a few seconds off your PB with the advantage of a stream of traffic and a good road surface is unfortunately what excites many people. Competitions such as the Best All Rounder really don't help IMO.

Ruth

ps. Thanks Rich for your supportive comment.

Old Tuggo

BeaconRuth wrote:

Rich -

My fastest av spd in a 10 on the K41 is 25.5mph.
My fastest av spd in a 25 is 27.0mph

Did you do your 25 PB in the Heanor Clarion event on Saturday, which is one of the fastest courses in the country - beautiful smooth DC all the way and with tons of traffic carrying you along? So it's OK to have all the advantages of a good course etc for your 25 target, but you're not allowed those advantages to achieve your 10 target?

Ruth

I made a big improvement in my PB in the Heanor Clarion event but it was very hard with a block headwind to the turn and I needed a higher gear coming back. However I think the main advantage is the smooth surface as I did not notice any assistance from traffic which thankfully gave me a wide berth. I normally only ride the heavy J courses.

SteveR_100Milers

Undoubtedly true - and yet you can't get in an event on a dragstrip without a very fast qualifying time. Shaving a few seconds off your PB with the advantage of a stream of traffic and a good road surface is unfortunately what excites many people. Competitions such as the Best All Rounder really don't help IMO.

Interesting observation from Sunday - the course was a part DC part rolling circuit, total 3 laps for a 50TT. There were "only" 40 starters out of a total entry of 50 so a modest field really, but there were about 6 or 7 PB's, most of which were seasoned riders. The biggest factor was the wind - the DC was open and exposed with a tailwind, the rolling B road was lined with trees with plenty of shelter from the headwind. Ironically, I had moved the course from a more obvious DC based one because of roadworks, but I am pretty sure that it would have been slower, yet there would have probably been double the number of entries.

BeaconRuth

Was that 3 laps of Raglan-Abergavenny (back road) and return to Raglan on the A40, Steve, as used in the National 50 in 2006? (Rather than Abergavenny-Monmouth and back twice?) It's a shame to have only 40 starters. I rather liked the 3-lap course although I thought we were aggravating motorists on the old road with so many riders close together on all their different laps in the National. Far less of a problem with only 40 riders. Anyway, that course was far preferable to the National 50 courses used in 2007 and 2008 IMO, both solely on dragstrips with lots of long arrow-head junctions and heavy traffic.

Ruth

chrisw12

Steve, remember your numbers were down because the Welsh 10 champs were the day before. Also I think there's a general problem in Wales that the 12hr is having a knock on effect on the fields in 50's and 100's. Nobody wants to do the bar because of the 12. If the 12 didn't count and the bar was moved to 25,50 and 100 then there would have been a bigger field for your 50 guaranteed!

Sorry to hijack the thread.

SteveR_100Milers

BeaconRuth wrote:

Was that 3 laps of Raglan-Abergavenny (back road) and return to Raglan on the A40, Steve, as used in the National 50 in 2006? (Rather than Abergavenny-Monmouth and back twice?) It's a shame to have only 40 starters. I rather liked the 3-lap course although I thought we were aggravating motorists on the old road with so many riders close together on all their different laps in the National. Far less of a problem with only 40 riders. Anyway, that course was far preferable to the National 50 courses used in 2007 and 2008 IMO, both solely on dragstrips with lots of long arrow-head junctions and heavy traffic.

Ruth

Oops no, it wasnt (edited for obvious mistake). It runs NE along the A465 by Neath/Resolven, then SW along the old Glyneath road for 3 circuits. Has a similar profile to the one you describe Ruth, but is actually better sheltered along the backroads.

ChrisW wrote:

Steve, remember your numbers were down because the Welsh 10 champs were the day before. Also I think there's a general problem in Wales that the 12hr is having a knock on effect on the fields in 50's and 100's. Nobody wants to do the bar because of the 12. If the 12 didn't count and the bar was moved to 25,50 and 100 then there would have been a bigger field for your 50 guaranteed!

Ah, but same event at same time last year on the the A40 was over 80 riders....agree witrh the 12 hours reducing interest in the shorter events, but this was also the same situation last year! So 120 riders next year please - it's a great course (and the cakes were simply the best).

A telling stat is that there were 12 PB's in 39 finishers (no DNF's) on a day that frankly would have been pretty horrendous on the R25/3H or L (i,e, down the "bank").