CSC's blood doping habits. Frank Schleck "amigo de biri
forearms Van Petegem
Posts: 151
Suddeutsche Zeitung has a story on Schleck, Basso, Riis and Fuentes. Seems Riis went to Madrid and visited Fuentes with Schleck.
http://www.sueddeutsche.de/,tt2m1/sport ... ticle.html
I am thinking about half a dozen of CSC's riders are on transfusions. Perhaps the entire team. So much for Damsgaard.
http://www.sueddeutsche.de/,tt2m1/sport ... ticle.html
I am thinking about half a dozen of CSC's riders are on transfusions. Perhaps the entire team. So much for Damsgaard.
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Seems like a load of crap if you ask me. Just a rehash of old doping cases with a couple of unfounded allegations against Frank Schleck (Babelfish translation: Franc Lick) thrown in for good luck. Giovanni Lombardi managing the Schlecks is supposed to prove what, exactly?
Not a surprise that this comes from a German newspaper.
Plus, Damsgaard was hired way after Operacion Puerto.0 -
afx237vi wrote:Seems like a load of crap if you ask me. Just a rehash of old doping cases with a couple of unfounded allegations against Frank Schleck (Babelfish translation: Franc Lick) thrown in for good luck. Giovanni Lombardi managing the Schlecks is supposed to prove what, exactly?
Not a surprise that this comes from a German newspaper.
Plus, Damsgaard was hired way after Operacion Puerto.
the only thing full of shit is you mate. Seems you should read up on your cycling and get a brain.0 -
What a rather hostile response Mr Forearms, perhaps you should calm down.0
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grimpeur wrote:What a rather hostile response Mr Forearms, perhaps you should calm down.
Suddeutsche is a paper of record in Germany. They don't publish scurrilous rumour.0 -
well thats me f***ed i cant speak german :roll:cheesy quaver0
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forearms Van Petegem wrote:grimpeur wrote:What a rather hostile response Mr Forearms, perhaps you should calm down.
Suddeutsche is a paper of record in Germany. They don't publish scurrilous rumour.
So what's of substance in that article? Two pages of rehashed doping stories and innuendo about CSC. Where's the proof about Schleck?
Oh, I missed the bit about Sastre coming from Madrid. That must make him a doper because Fuentes is also from Madrid. :roll:0 -
The police had the place under surveillance. Show us photos of Schleck there. Then you can tell us ALL how completely stupid we are with complete justification.0
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I can confirm I am a c0ck if that helps. :roll:0
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OT but I recently bought a Peter van Petegem towel from the Quick Step site: http://www.qsi-cycling.com/shop/prod_530.html It's great but I feel a bit funny when drying myself *down there* with it.
OK back to Schleck now...0 -
I got one too, for my ballsh.0
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forearms Van Petegem wrote:grimpeur wrote:What a rather hostile response Mr Forearms, perhaps you should calm down.
Suddeutsche is a paper of record in Germany. They don't publish scurrilous rumour.
Sorry say that again? A Newspaper that doesn't publish rumours or unfounded stories?
And we are the stupid ones.... :roll:0 -
So you got the beach towel with the lifesize image of Peter?PutneyJoe wrote:I got one too, for my ballsh.0 -
my mail is, Riis accompanied all riders, I assume the A squad that would do the Tour, to Madrid in 2005, or the 04/05 offseason. He met with Saiz.
We will see who is correct, then feel free to apologise mate.afx237vi wrote:forearms Van Petegem wrote:grimpeur wrote:What a rather hostile response Mr Forearms, perhaps you should calm down.
Suddeutsche is a paper of record in Germany. They don't publish scurrilous rumour.
So what's of substance in that article? Two pages of rehashed doping stories and innuendo about CSC. Where's the proof about Schleck?
Oh, I missed the bit about Sastre coming from Madrid. That must make him a doper because Fuentes is also from Madrid. :roll:0 -
Denkrom, go speak to Ryder. He knows his stuff, that 2006 Catalonia result was not bread and water.drenkrom wrote:The police had the place under surveillance. Show us photos of Schleck there. Then you can tell us ALL how completely stupid we are with complete justification.0
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Amazing the difference in reaction because this is a CSC/Riis story
Wonder how much more folks would want to believe it if it was a Bruyneel/Astana story?0 -
If Big Schleck is on transfuions this year he ought to be deamnding a refund from the doc - he's only 3 min 20 ahead of Vande Velde and about 2:30 of that is due to VDV crashing.
Still, I suppose the comeback to that is that Vande Velde is on transfusions. And everyone else. Their result from [nsert whatever race rider X did well in] wasn't achieved on bread and water...Le Blaireau (1)0 -
DaveyL wrote:If Big Schleck is on transfuions this year he ought to be deamnding a refund from the doc - he's only 3 min 20 ahead of Vande Velde and about 2:30 of that is due to VDV crashing.
I used a similar argument about Ricco and his TTing...what a plonker I am
I'm guessing the only concrete proof we have is that they are beating Cadel who is a super duper clean rider.You live and learn. At any rate, you live0 -
if anyone it is Niki Sorensen of CSC who should be a suspect....read Fuentes invoices to Tyler Hamilton...seems logical0
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Here's a long (!) synopsis of what the article in German is going on about - it is admittedly massively padded with old news (it could be argued this is necessary for readers not familiar with the background, but they take their time getting to the meat of it!), but there is a little something new there...
Essentially they are saying that officials connected with the Puerto investigation are claiming that some witness statements suggest that "Amigo de Birillo" is Frank Schleck rather than Giovanni Lombardi, as was previously thought.
Amigo de Birillo means Amigo/friend of Basso (confirmed as 'codename' Birillo, 2nd on the list behind 'Hijo Rudicio' or Son of Rudicio - Ulrich). By the way these are according to Jaksche not really codenames - they were actually a means for the old and slightly confused (early Alzheimers was it?) colleague of Fuentes to remember whose blood belonged to who. Word association involving things like the names of their pets helped him according to Jaksche (whose family dog was named Bella).
They add some further background: Lombardi is alledgedly a friend of Fuentes (but claims only a passing acquaintance) and is the manager of the Schleck brothers. He lives in Madrid, though of course that is a highly circumstantial piece of evidence :-)
Apparently 'those in the know' have long been sure that Amigo de Birillo was a colleague of Basso's in Riis' CSC. From the same quarters now comes the allegation concerning a visit of Schleck with Riis to Madrid and to Fuentes.
The mention of Sastre is again very much circumstantial: Sastre has been with Riis in CSC since 2001. He lives in Madrid too. Between the lines they are clearly saying 'is it really believable that Riis' riders including Jaksche and Basso, and allegedly (I don't think this is acknowledged anywhere as a fact?) Riis himself, made trips to Fuentes in Madrid to fill and collect process bags of blood, but Sastre who lived there was never involved?
Circumstantial yes. A question worth asking in the interest of getting to the bottom of Puerto? I think so. A damning indictment of Sastre? Definitely not. He's a journalist though - it his job to ask such questions.
Note that Basso said that Riis "must have been there with many riders". I'm also pretty sure I read something from Jaksche skirting around Riis' involvement in doping when he was at CSC and never quite making an accusation. Or was it stronger than that? Can't remember.
* The main point of the article is that Riis and Schleck together had a meeting with Fuentes in December 2005.
* Further, 'information received' by this German newspaper suggest that national authorities (presumably anti-doping agencies, law enforcement) in multiple countries have cooperated in the exchange of information regarding Frank Schleck. The inference is that these authorities are targetting him for some reason.
* The paper speculates that it is not impossible that the interest of CONI and the anti-doping authorities' doping tests carried out when the Tour entered Italy (which seem to have had a particular focus on CSC), and the (fruitless) French customs search of the Schlecks' father's car may be directly connected to the exchange of info, and the evidence concerning the visit to Fuentes.
In some people's opinion, association with Fuentes is as guilty as circumstantial evidence can get. Others however would give the benefit of doubt to people like Lance Armstrong who had very strong links (confirmed and admitted) with Fuentes.
As usual in doping most people will either fall on the side of 'this makes Schleck at the very least under suspicion, for having at least talked about doping with Fuentes', or 'innocent until proven guilty, and who are these officials and witnesses anyway'. Some will go a little bit further in either direction.
Nothing will change - there will always be these differences of opinion which tend to be a little religious on either side - unless perhaps stronger, more undeniable evidence turns up about Armstrong, in which case his sympathisers and those who tend to assume the best in cyclists would surely have to eat their hats.
In my opinion, it would be equally surprising if it turned out that Schleck was clean, or had doped at some point in the past. Sadly the association with Riis, the known past of dopers in the CSC team, and his strength as a cyclist makes it more likely than for some others. He seems like a nice guy, but then so do Basso and Jaksche. They probably still are - though I have much more sympathy for 'out of a job, admitted everything' Jaksche than 'I just bought the blood doping, I didn't actually use it' Basso. Riis I don't doubt for a moment continued being involved in doping after he stopped riding though. Why would he not be - it worked for him, and he then had a team?
I don't think there is enough on Schleck (if its confirmed he visited Fuentes I will change my mind), and on Sastre there is naff all (ditto) - I bet there are other pro cyclists in Madrid (not to mention footballers and tennis players, but let's not go there, this is long enough ;-)). I also don't think their riding at this year's Tour is so stunning it implies doping either, though its always possible.
As to the OP's original comment that all CSC riders are doped - I think in the worst of times there have been good riders in the bad teams, and nowadays I think doping is reserved for individual riders desperate to make the Tour and do well like Duenas and Beltran (together with the obligatory 'dodgy doctors'), and perhaps at a pinch organised team doping for stars like Ricco and Piepoli. I hope I'm not proved wrong on that, but don't tar everyone with the same brush unless there is at least a little evidence against them...
A little evidence is enough for me though I think - how many times has there been smoke but no fire? Ricco, Piepoli, Vino... But of course Contador (AC), Kloeden (Vino, Astana, Rominger, Fuentes connections I think), Valverde, Armstrong, and sadly anyone who has ever been a part of Discovery/Bruyneel team (dropping like flies!) is a little smoky, and I'd be very surprised if every one of those I have just mentioned get away with it long term...0 -
The Suddeutsche Zeitung, even before they get into the story, clearly has a rather negative opinion of Riis. But who doesn’t, even if we secretly admire the likes of Riis (in a canny rascal sort-of way) - strong-minded and confident enough to nonchalantly admit doping, when most contenders probably doped and kept quiet. (Will Armstrong be strong enough to come clean in 2011?)
I don’t know whether Basso (Birillo)’s friend was Schleck (Amigo de Birillo) but in the 2006 Giro (which Basso won), Schleck waited for Basso on the Stelvio climb when Basso was struggling and might have lost a lot of time, so there might be a bonding between them.
The moment you start to suspect the main CSC riders for doping, you have to think about the others. While Voigt is very well acclaimed by German media (and on this forum too I think), on German cycling forums he is actually considered suspect - too able and blue-eyed to be real.0 -
Yep, Jens has always struck me as a consummate professional and sadly, that goes in hand with being on the hot sauce.You live and learn. At any rate, you live0
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This is all fine and well Forearms but when can we expect your hatchet job on Cadel? Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.0
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In Denmark we have an journalist Lars Werge, who in sevel years has tried to get Bjarne down. Now we can find the same type on person in an German newpaper. Why yesterday, and why with any documentacion at all. Sorry there is no German bikers who is plcaed in Tor de France this year, so this must be the reason to the newspaper try it this way. Can´t we winn, then we can make a lot of trouble.
If I was Bjarne there was already papers on way from the court to stop this kind of bullshit.
Bad journalist you can find everywhere.
Better luck next time
Moellenberg
Web Journalist0 -
Suddeutsche is a paper of record in Germany. They don't publish scurrilous rumour.[/quote]
Newspaper...rumour.......am I missing something?
:shock: :? :shock: :?
'How can an opinion be bullsh1t?' High Fidelity0 -
'How can an opinion be bullsh1t?' High Fidelity0
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Interestingly, Eurosport have just said Fab Cancellara turned down triple the money he's getting from Riis, to join the new Tinkoff.
Brings to mind the old saying, "money isn't everything.""Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.0 -
Allegations of doping aside, if you watch the film 'Overcoming' and see how Riis runs the team it is much different to others with more of a family atmosphere. Many other ProTour teams are quite cliquey with groups of 3-4 riders working and training together but not talking to the rest of the team. I found some things staggering, CSC was one of the first teams to have individual training programs for their riders, with most other teams having a single program for sprinters, one for climbers, one for rouleurs etc.0
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grimpeur wrote:Allegations of doping aside, if you watch the film 'Overcoming' and see how Riis runs the team it is much different to others with more of a family atmosphere. Many other ProTour teams are quite cliquey with groups of 3-4 riders working and training together but not talking to the rest of the team. I found some things staggering, CSC was one of the first teams to have individual training programs for their riders, with most other teams having a single program for sprinters, one for climbers, one for rouleurs etc.
Tony Gibb on Eurosport has just said that Cadel Evans has been using a separate bus from the rest of the Silence-Lotto team for the entire Tour. Diva complex or what?0
