CSC

calvjones

Can anybody explain to me how CSC can ride all the Rabo donestiques, most of the Silence domestiques, all-bar-one of the Leakygas team and a number of GC contenders off their collective wheel just by riding up a Cat 3 very fast? The argument that they don't need to keep any energy for the last mountain doesn't really wash with other domestiques which are in the same boat.

Are people like Cioni sitting there, pedalling squares thinking "ah, pity I won't be with Cadel on the last climb, but that Arveson was always a class above me".

Can anyone convince me that Bjarne is such a master talent-spotter/coach that he picks a bunch of riders who can shine at a time when EPO is clearly rife, and can also put out +10% watts on everyone else when racing is rather cleaner, and they are rigorously clean...

itt makes me a bit worried when I see every single rider on a team performing so strongly. Watching yesterday I had exactly the same feeling as when watching Vino's ITT last year.

ridgerider

I hear what you are saying, but not all of them reach the line in such good shape (I know...I know... they could be bluffing) and CSC only have 2 riders at the top of the classification.

It's not difficult to look strong when you are only riding a 175km stage and everyone else has to do 185km.

Cumulonimbus

Cioni for one was having a really bad day - at the finish he was almost last. Ok, so he had no reason to do anything more than finish once the leaders had gone away but for someone who can climb a bit you would have thought he would finish a bit more strongly if he was feeling ok. I dont know what CSC's budget is like or how many of their riders have done well at other teams before going to CSC? O'Grady is the only one i know from before and he was always a good rider. People like Voigt havent been in any breaks this year. One thing that has also struck me is that vandevelde has been a surprise to me and he used to ride for CSC last year.

Kléber

This is what I hinted at yesterday, saying "Given Saunier Duval looked highly suspicious, are there any other teams dominating the race this summer? :idea: "

Everyone was quick to point the finger at Saunier Dopage when they were dominant in the Pyrenees. Now CSC are strong in the Alps and it's thrilling.

Of course, the likes of Piepoli have never achieved such feats before, CSC have arguably some stronger riders.

I want to believe. But when I see guys like Frank Schleck, it's hard. He couldn't keep a contract with De Nardi - Colpack and ended up as an amateur again, before signing for CSC. Now he's in yellow. Of course there could be a perfect explanation for it all but this is pro cycling and you cynically apply a form of Occam's razor: if a rider comes from no where to start winning left, right and centre, there aren't that many reasons why.

So let's hope they are riding fair. But just be careful when you point fingers at some teams and praise others.

calvjones

Ridgerider wrote:

I hear what you are saying, but not all of them reach the line in such good shape (I know...I know... they could be bluffing) and CSC only have 2 riders at the top of the classification.

It's not difficult to look strong when you are only riding a 175km stage and everyone else has to do 185km.

But all the other domestiques have to do 175km, but they can't keep up, even with CSC doing all the work at the front.

OK, Cioni was on a bad day; Nibali crashed; the sprinters were soft tapping; those not interested in GC saw the stage win disappear & backed off; Pozzato is just lazy; etc etc.

That still leaves at least Rabo, Silence, Garmin & LG domestiques who should have kept in touch at LEAST over the Cat 3, but who couldn't (except Popo I think?).

They dropped Kirchen FFS and he's 7th on GC. On a Cat 3 :shock:

thamacdaddy

From what I was aware but someone can and probably will correct me, CSC has one of the biggest squads and best budgets.

The day prior to yesterdays stage in the ITV4 commentary they even said that CSC were all at the back for the entire stage taking it easy which would suggest they are planning something again for the alps.

Voight has stated in interviews the idea was to be ready for the hard climbs this time around and he would be doing "no silly breakaways" which is a shame cause I quite enjoy his long runs for a stage.

Anyone who saw the faces of the guys setting the pace would surely not say this is even remotely close to the look of the SD guys. The fact they also have more than one GC contender level rider would be a massive benefit to them and yesterday you basically saw andy and sastre up there pushing evans for frank.

Pre tour everyone noted the schleck brothers for outside GC contention given andy's giro results last year and their consistant results in races. Frank schleck was the 2006 winner of the alpe de huez stage and 3rd overall in the pro tour that year. Sastre is well known as a good gc contender who seems to lack the killer ambition to actually do it so how they all have "come from nowhere" seems a bit of a strange comment to me.

They have a much stronger team than any others on there in terms of GC help and should any of them win it they will need it. You have to respect Evans menchov valverde etc because they do have to battle a strong CSC team right now.

Kirchen is not a good example either. A good allrounder he was noted as going to find it tough on more hilly stages when he had yellow, his team is also all set up around sprint lead outs.

In my opinion the overall team CSC has is much stronger than any of the others. Casse D'epagne were probably the only other team pre tour anyone would say would be able to keep up with CSC in the mountains and they seriously hurt themselves in the first week being on the front all the time. Now with seemingly no team orders they are all over the place attacking in breakaways etc. As for domestiques when you have the likes of Voight and Cancellara as your 4,5 riders etc thats a pretty strong team

Kafka\'s Doll

CSC are one of just three teams (I think?) who publish all their independent dope testing. None of the riders has missed a test, every one of them has always been where they said they'd be, and every one of 1000 tests has come back clean.

SD they ain't.

calvjones

thamacdaddy wrote:

From what I was aware but someone can and probably will correct me, CSC has one of the biggest squads and best budgets.

The day prior to yesterdays stage in the ITV4 commentary they even said that CSC were all at the back for the entire stage taking it easy which would suggest they are planning something again for the alps.

Voight has stated in interviews the idea was to be ready for the hard climbs this time around and he would be doing "no silly breakaways" which is a shame cause I quite enjoy his long runs for a stage.

Anyone who saw the faces of the guys setting the pace would surely not say this is even remotely close to the look of the SD guys. The fact they also have more than one GC contender level rider would be a massive benefit to them and yesterday you basically saw andy and sastre up there pushing evans for frank.

Pre tour everyone noted the schleck brothers for outside GC contention given andy's giro results last year and their consistant results in races. Frank schleck was the 2006 winner of the alpe de huez stage and 3rd overall in the pro tour that year. Sastre is well known as a good gc contender who seems to lack the killer ambition to actually do it so how they all have "come from nowhere" seems a bit of a strange comment to me.

They have a much stronger team than any others on there in terms of GC help and should any of them win it they will need it. You have to respect Evans menchov valverde etc because they do have to battle a strong CSC team right now.

Kirchen is not a good example either. A good allrounder he was noted as going to find it tough on more hilly stages when he had yellow, his team is also all set up around sprint lead outs.

In my opinion the overall team CSC has is much stronger than any of the others. Casse D'epagne were probably the only other team pre tour anyone would say would be able to keep up with CSC in the mountains and they seriously hurt themselves in the first week being on the front all the time. Now with seemingly no team orders they are all over the place attacking in breakaways etc. As for domestiques when you have the likes of Voight and Cancellara as your 4,5 riders etc thats a pretty strong team

Completely accept what you say about GC contenders but the idea that Cancellara & Voight can go uip hills faster than Kirchen jst because they've been faffing about at the back for the last week is frankly unbelievable. To me anyway.

Kafka\'s Doll

calvjones wrote:

Completely accept what you say about GC contenders but the idea that Cancellara & Voight can go uip hills faster than Kirchen jst because they've been faffing about at the back for the last week is frankly unbelievable. To me anyway.

Kirchen wants a podium place, and has to get to the finish in a good position. Cancellara and Voight are only attempting to do well in specific parts of each stage. It doesn't matter where they finish, so they can go all out and then fade. Kirchen can't. It's a daft comparison.

claudb

None of the other teams have even ONE Jens Voight OR Fabian Cancellara. They have both proved how good they are in their own right. Dario Cioni ?? - come on he's not in the same league and never has been, and "Popo" has not lived up to his initial performances for years. No, put Jens and Fabian together to a specific purpose at the right time and you get what you saw yesterday and to Hautacam. Even Casse de Epargne who are a reasonable team have no two guys like Jens and Fabian. And, of course, that is just the start - he then has three guys who can rank as GC contenders to take over from them when their job is done. Say what you want about Riis, but he's got the right horses for the required course and uses them with calculated genius !!!!

RichN95.

What CSC are doing is saving there efforts only for when it matters and they have a very good team. They're not like the US Postal blue train which used to hammer away until only Beloki or Basso was left.

thamacdaddy

But they didn't yesterday did they? (thats a question as I am not sure)

I know cancellara did in the pyrenees for the first climb as he broke away and powered his way to be there to help frank etc on the decent and I see no issue with Jens, he was awesome in the giro and is a regular good level rider. Cancellara looked totally wrecked following the stage where he powered away and Jens didn't look much better towards the end of that stage either. I didn't see it unbelievable at the time that they put all in to do so. I agree voight is not a mountain climber however he is more than capable of one or two great efforts in stages of any tour and I have seen one from him so far.

The only riders I saw from CSC pushing the front yesterday were the guys you would expect i.e. The schleck brothers and sastre.

I personally don't think there is anything dodgy about their perfformances and hope I am not going to be disappointed in that but each to their own opinion. I have enjoyed the TDF this year but there will always be those that don't because they doubt the validity of performances. I can understand this but I also wonder how they continue watching.

Doobz

In my eyes everyone is a doper till proven otherwise.. Why not just look at it that way?

iainf72

Doobz wrote:

In my eyes everyone is a doper till proven otherwise.. Why not just look at it that way?

How do you prove a negative?

avoidingmyphd

What they're doing is different to what the SD boys did last week.

Ricco, Piepoli, Cobo all rode uphill away from the main contenders and stayed away - Piepoli and Cobo when those contenders were at their max, Ricco at a less suspicious moment, but in more spectacular fashion.

The CSC "domestiques" are not riding away from the main GC contenders - they are riding away from other domestiques, then dying and letting the contenders get on with it.

And they are only going up HALF a hill faster than Kirchen! He came in @5.34, Voigt @16.29, Cancellera @ 21.25 and O'Grady @ 25.33 yesterday!

Kléber

Doobz, that's unfair to many riders.

But with CSC, many of you above are inventing reasons to justify your beliefs.

Like I say, I want to believe, I hope they are clean. But it comes down to faith.

richa

calvjones wrote:

Completely accept what you say about GC contenders but the idea that Cancellara & Voight can go uip hills faster than Kirchen jst because they've been faffing about at the back for the last week is frankly unbelievable. To me anyway.

Cancellara & Voight put everything into that effort and suffered as a consequence coming in way back from Kirchen.
Voight +11mins
Cancellara +16mins

Kirchen new his best way of getting to the finish in the lowest time was to pace himself, not to go full bore after Cancellara & Voight.

flattythehurdler

calvjones wrote:

Can anybody explain to me how CSC can ride all the Rabo donestiques, most of the Silence domestiques, all-bar-one of the Leakygas team and a number of GC contenders off their collective wheel just by riding up a Cat 3 very fast? The argument that they don't need to keep any energy for the last mountain doesn't really wash with other domestiques which are in the same boat.

Are people like Cioni sitting there, pedalling squares thinking "ah, pity I won't be with Cadel on the last climb, but that Arveson was always a class above me".

Can anyone convince me that Bjarne is such a master talent-spotter/coach that he picks a bunch of riders who can shine at a time when EPO is clearly rife, and can also put out +10% watts on everyone else when racing is rather cleaner, and they are rigorously clean...

itt makes me a bit worried when I see every single rider on a team performing so strongly. Watching yesterday I had exactly the same feeling as when watching Vino's ITT last year.

I blieve CSC to be racing clean due too their anti-doping programme. If I can't believe that they, along with columbia, garmin etc are racing clean, I reallywould have to pack it in. They do have the budget to be able to pick the very best.

calvjones

Kafka\'s Doll wrote:

calvjones wrote:

Completely accept what you say about GC contenders but the idea that Cancellara & Voight can go uip hills faster than Kirchen jst because they've been faffing about at the back for the last week is frankly unbelievable. To me anyway.

Kirchen wants a podium place, and has to get to the finish in a good position. Cancellara and Voight are only attempting to well in specific parts of each stage. It doesn't matter where they finish, so they can go all out and then fade. Kirchen can't. It's a daft comparison.

Normally it would be a daft comparison, but my point is that Kirchen & many others were dropped on a Cat 3. You may think Cioni is crap but there are many other riders who are just as good as the CSC boys - albeit perhaps one per team - at going up hills & they were almost all dropped, despite being able to draft at quite a high speed. I am NOT talking about the final climb.

So do we all believe:
a) that CSC riders are so much better than anyone else that even when they were clean in (say) 2004-7 they still were clearly the strongest team in all but the TdF (and then took that mantle as soon as Disco left with the same tactics, although no GC contender)

b) they were as dirty as everyone else back then but none of them (on the Tour team at least has suffered as other riders have from EPO withdrawal when they went clean; so much so that they can drop good riders from teams who I am SURE are still unclean (nobody from CSC ever seems to have a bad day when they are needed)

c) Daamsgard stuff doesn't work.

Until yesterday I would have called myself an a), depite Bjarne's previous, and his ludicous denial of having ever even heard of Basso when Puerto blew. Today I'm a reluctant c)

Kafka\'s Doll

calvjones wrote:

Kafka\'s Doll wrote:

calvjones wrote:

Completely accept what you say about GC contenders but the idea that Cancellara & Voight can go uip hills faster than Kirchen jst because they've been faffing about at the back for the last week is frankly unbelievable. To me anyway.

Kirchen wants a podium place, and has to get to the finish in a good position. Cancellara and Voight are only attempting to well in specific parts of each stage. It doesn't matter where they finish, so they can go all out and then fade. Kirchen can't. It's a daft comparison.

Normally it would be a daft comparison, but my point is that Kirchen & many others were dropped on a Cat 3. You may think Cioni is crap but there are many other riders who are just as good as the CSC boys - albeit perhaps one per team - at going up hills & they were almost all dropped, despite being able to draft at quite a high speed. I am NOT talking about the final climb.

So do we all believe:
a) that CSC riders are so much better than anyone else that even when they were clean in (say) 2004-7 they still were clearly the strongest team in all but the TdF (and then took that mantle as soon as Disco left with the same tactics, although no GC contender)

b) they were as dirty as everyone else back then but none of them (on the Tour team at least has suffered as other riders have from EPO withdrawal when they went clean; so much so that they can drop good riders from teams who I am SURE are still unclean (nobody from CSC ever seems to have a bad day when they are needed)

c) Daamsgard stuff doesn't work.

Until yesterday I would have called myself an a), depite Bjarne's previous, and his ludicous denial of having ever even heard of Basso when Puerto blew. Today I'm a reluctant c)

He was dropped on a Cat 3 by people whose only job was to get up a Cat3 quickly. He beat them to the finish by some margin.

calvjones

Kafka\'s Doll wrote:

calvjones wrote:

Kafka\'s Doll wrote:

calvjones wrote:

Completely accept what you say about GC contenders but the idea that Cancellara & Voight can go uip hills faster than Kirchen jst because they've been faffing about at the back for the last week is frankly unbelievable. To me anyway.

Kirchen wants a podium place, and has to get to the finish in a good position. Cancellara and Voight are only attempting to well in specific parts of each stage. It doesn't matter where they finish, so they can go all out and then fade. Kirchen can't. It's a daft comparison.

Normally it would be a daft comparison, but my point is that Kirchen & many others were dropped on a Cat 3. You may think Cioni is crap but there are many other riders who are just as good as the CSC boys - albeit perhaps one per team - at going up hills & they were almost all dropped, despite being able to draft at quite a high speed. I am NOT talking about the final climb.

So do we all believe:
a) that CSC riders are so much better than anyone else that even when they were clean in (say) 2004-7 they still were clearly the strongest team in all but the TdF (and then took that mantle as soon as Disco left with the same tactics, although no GC contender)

b) they were as dirty as everyone else back then but none of them (on the Tour team at least has suffered as other riders have from EPO withdrawal when they went clean; so much so that they can drop good riders from teams who I am SURE are still unclean (nobody from CSC ever seems to have a bad day when they are needed)

c) Daamsgard stuff doesn't work.

Until yesterday I would have called myself an a), depite Bjarne's previous, and his ludicous denial of having ever even heard of Basso when Puerto blew. Today I'm a reluctant c)

He was dropped on a Cat 3 by people whose only job was to get up a Cat3 quickly. He beat them to the finish by some margin.

OK, so how did they drop, um (sticks pin), Zubeldia, Weening and Luis Leon Sanchez on a Cat 3? I'm not being funny, I'm genuinely interested in finding a non-dope explanation.

Kléber

Just a small point, when you want to reply to someone, use the button, there's no need to quote the entire text above, it makes reading hard work. 8)

Cumulonimbus

calvjones wrote:

OK, so how did they drop, um (sticks pin), Zubeldia, Weening and Luis Leon Sanchez on a Cat 3? I'm not being funny, I'm genuinely interested in finding a non-dope explanation.

On the hautacam stage (10)

Zubeldia +24.28
Weening +24.28
Luis Leon Sanchez +24.28

yesterday

Zubeldia 10.54
weening 10.54
sanchez 20.46

I think the explanation is that these guys arent doing well this year and so arent that bothered about losing time. Zubeldia has done well in previous tours (5th last year) but this year just cant keep up with the pace

iainf72

calvjones wrote:

OK, so how did they drop, um (sticks pin), Zubeldia, Weening and Luis Leon Sanchez on a Cat 3? I'm not being funny, I'm genuinely interested in finding a non-dope explanation.

Was there a cross wind at all? If they were badly positioned and the hammer went down they could get shelled for being badly positioned.

Kafka\'s Doll

calvjones wrote:

OK, so how did they drop, um (sticks pin), Zubeldia, Weening and Luis Leon Sanchez on a Cat 3? I'm not being funny, I'm genuinely interested in finding a non-dope explanation.

Dear God man, how many times do you need telling? Zubeldia beat them because he wanted to do more than just perform on one particular part of the stage.

All they had to do was lead for a bit. Then they sank like stones.

calvjones

But these three riders had GC or stage contenders on the road - they surely should have been busting a gut to stay with them, and are all good climbers?

andyp

calvjones wrote:

OK, so how did they drop, um (sticks pin), Zubeldia, Weening and Luis Leon Sanchez on a Cat 3? I'm not being funny, I'm genuinely interested in finding a non-dope explanation.

So far in 15 stages CSC as a team have ridden hard in 4 of them, i.e. the first time trial, the stage in the Massif Central where they tried to split it early on, the Hautacam stage and yesterday. The rest of the time they've mainly sat in and protected their GC riders. That may mean they are still relatively fresh when compared to other teams.

Also, as others have said, they are using riders of the calibre of Voigt and Cancellara as domestiques. Not many teams have such strength in depth.

Also, unlike any other team that I'm aware of, they spend time trying to create a sense of team spirit. Maybe that means there are no egos and everyone knows what their role is, which should never be underestimated as a motivator, in the team's master plan.

I don't know if they are clean or not but if they are not then Damsgaard isn't what he seems, i.e. a vociferous anti-doping campaigner.

iainf72

calvjones wrote:

But these three riders had GC or stage contenders on the road - they surely should have been busting a gut to stay with them, and are all good climbers?

But no real challengers got shelled during their efforts, did they?

It's probably easier to get rid of climbers on a Cat3 than a HC climb if you're using brute force and ignorance (hi Jens and Fab)

calvjones

Well, there's Cunego, but the days when he could be called a challenger are long gone. I suspect by £10/PTP pick would have been better on Bruseghin again...

Kafka\'s Doll

calvjones wrote:

But these three riders had GC or stage contenders on the road - they surely should have been busting a gut to stay with them, and are all good climbers?

I'm at a loss to explain why you're digging your heels in here. You could be the best climber in the world, but if you want to finish the stage well you're still likely to get whipped on one part of it by someone whose only job is to do well on one part of it. There's absolutely nothing strange about it at all. CSC knew they had to crack Evans. If you were designing a tactic to do so, mightn't it involve sacrificing Cancellara?

calvjones

Kafka\'s Doll wrote:

calvjones wrote:

But these three riders had GC or stage contenders on the road - they surely should have been busting a gut to stay with them, and are all good climbers?

I'm at a loss to explain why you're digging your heels in here. You could be the best climber in the world, but if you want to finish the stage well you're still likely to get whipped on one part of it by someone whose only job is to do well on one part of it. There's absolutely nothing strange about it at all. CSC knew they had to crack Evans. If you were designing a tactic to do so, mightn't it involve sacrificing Cancellara?

This is just completely not my original point - which was how CSC managed to drop everyone else's domestiques - yes, along with a lot of good GC riders (some of whom are certainly still up to no good).

Clearly, most everyone else just thinks that a clean Cancellara, Voigt et al are capable of this, and I don't/can't. The same way as I raised an eyebrow when Jens took the TdG by outsprinting Levi on a mountaintop.

Apologies for excessive quoting Kleber!