Cycling petitions and road tax

downfader

I'm sure this has been discussed here quite often already so I hope you dont mind me bringing it up again

I went to the no10 website to have a look at the petitions regarding cycling, the environment, etc as I had a week off work. What struck me was not the amount of pro-cycling petitions, but the sheer anti-cycling content on them, and some very anticycling petitions themselves.

Some of the comments put in the name section (an abuse of the petition rules) were tandemount to inciting violence against us. :x One name also popped up in all these petitions: Philip Glover. Who is he? LOL! Mr Glover, you are now my nemesis, lol!

Do any of you sign the online petitions? I have signed a few, but most of them have been the same - I presume because either a) people dont check or b) they want some kind of credit for starting the debate... :? Just look at plastic shopping bags for an example - last count was 12 petitions all running at the same time, if all those signatures ere pooled...

With the negative comments in petitions I found one that said: "JUST MOW THE PIG IGNORANT CYCLISTS DOWN!!!" I emailed the webmaster and these were removed. 8) Oh and just read the last paragraph of THIS one to see why some people need to be intellectually screened before getting near a computer, LOL!!

I'm sure I've caused my fair share of famine.

So the big question though is this. If the nutters got ahold of the asylum, and you HAD to pay road tax, etc, for your bike, would you? Would you also think it reasonable, or would you give up cycling?

will3

1) There is no such thing as "road tax". There is vehicle excise duty, which goes into the general taxation and as far as I know is ringfenced for nothing.
2) VED for zero emmisions vehicles is £0.
3) I pay VED for my car which is sat on the drive.
4) Local roads are paid for out of local council budget. This is in part paid for by council tax.

So other than trying to create a whole bunch of beurocratic cost, what is their point?

teulk

I'd quite happily pay tax - i dont really think as a cyclist i should but if i had to i guess i would. Even if they ever introduced tax for cyclist i cant imagine it being much as the lowest motorbike tax is around £15 a year, it would amount to a few quid id imagine. As for what they could claim the tax would be for i really dont know, after all the damage to the roads cycles cause is probably nil and the effect on the enviroment is nil. Also how would they enforce it ?

prj45

teulk wrote:

and the effect on the enviroment is nil

I wouldn't say it's nil, I get through several tyres and a fair few brake blocks each year.

always_tyred

Well, it won't be too long before we have to have ID cards. They will be optional, but the option will be to present one's self within 48 hours or something like that.

Certainly, Officer Hobson.

Besides, aren't number plates for bicycles on the cards as well? The "road tax" we will pay will go to fund the number plates and administration of them.

prj45

Always Tyred wrote:

Besides, aren't number plates for bicycles on the cards as well? The "road tax" we will pay will go to fund the number plates and administration of them.

Was it £50 in the cost of VED that goes toward admin costs?

So, minimum of £50 a year for VED on cycles then, if it's any lower then the tax payer will be part funding the licensing scheme, I'm sure that will go down a storm!

dondare

All the taxes and duties paid by motorists go to the treasury. None gets spent directly either on roads or on the administration costs of the DVLA.
All cyclists pay taxes, even if it's only VAT on tyres and brake blocks. Therefore all cyclists pay towards the cost of everything, including roads, including Motorways which we can't even use our bikes on, including the war in Iraq, (which we wouldn't be fighting if cars didn't need oil,) including the NHS which motorists are such a burden on and cyclists aren't, &c. &c.

The biggest misconception is that motorists pay to use the roads and cyclists don't. The fact is use of the roads is free, but car-owners must obtain a licence for their vehicle. And for some cars the licence is now free.

prj45

dondare wrote:

None gets spent directly either on roads or on the administration costs of the DVLA.

Well, quite, but if the DVLA finds itself having to spend more money to administer the licensing of push bikes it will cost more, and that money will come from the tax payer.

Even more if it also licenses the cyclist themselves.

Taxes would have to go up somewhere, or tax spend would have to go down somewhere else.

I sometimes wonder if the people who are calling for licensing of push bikes and/or riders have really thought this through.

Sea_Green_Incorruptible

'increased demand for food'. Awesome.

dondare

All these bike-bashing petitions only pick up a handful of signatures each; if anything it shows us how few people really feel that cycling should be regulated. The authors of these petitions tend to show just how ignorant they are and succeed in making themselves look foolish.
I like this one: http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/BEWARE/
is Gordon Brown being asked to patrol the streets in person bringing errant cyclists to book?

prj45

dondare wrote:

I like this one: http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/BEWARE/

We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to stop Cyclists jumping red lights and not stopping at pedestrian crossings

The statement doesn't even make sense, it looks like they want cyclists to NEVER stop at ped xings?!

Utter swivel eye'd madness.

e999sam

Is this the same Philip Glover who is UKIP's prospective parliamentary candidate for Bournemouth West ?

downfader

dondare wrote:

All these bike-bashing petitions only pick up a handful of signatures each; if anything it shows us how few people really feel that cycling should be regulated. The authors of these petitions tend to show just how ignorant they are and succeed in making themselves look foolish.
I like this one: http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/BEWARE/
is Gordon Brown being asked to patrol the streets in person bringing errant cyclists to book?

I saw that one the other week. I had already been in contact with a local officer about a local concern where it is happening regularly and they told me about their plans of action (which I might add - seem to have worked!). A few people here have been charged with running a red light on a cycle, and I know that in london there are special units catching them out for the time being - the education there seems to be working if what i saw on the news was true.

Will3, this is kinda how I understood it about "road tax". Trouble is, apart from making up fliers and catching up with them at the lights I dont see what I can do after these prats have driven off, lol! So far only one or two real run ins with people shouting the road tax abuse.

Had an argument with a guy at work about it. I said how heavy is your car, he said he drove a volvo or summit, I said I weigh 14 stone with the bike, am I due a refund in taxes because I have next to no emissions (well the odd gas )

Someone once pointed out to me that building and manufacturing a bike is quite environmentally unhealthy. A lot of rubber to be processed, metal to be moulded and energy for putting it all together. Its probably quite true.

I however, am not a greenie, I have to be honest.

dondare

I would think that bike production does carry an environmental penalty, like everything else. But a motor-vehicle of any kind will be hundreds of times worse.

dazzawazza

downfader wrote:

Someone once pointed out to me that building and manufacturing a bike is quite environmentally unhealthy. A lot of rubber to be processed, metal to be molded and energy for putting it all together. Its probably quite true.

Hmmm, how much rubber, plastic, metal and energy is used to manufacture the smallest, simplest and most environmentally friendly car. Then think about it for a 4X4.
The resources required to produce an electric or Hydrogen fuelled car must be enormous. And where does the electricity or Hydrogen come from??

I think that until there's a major breakthrough in producing electricity the only way to reduce consumption of resources is to go smaller, lighter and simpler. In terms of travel, what could be better than a bicycle?

chuckcork

From the CTC:

Attitudes to cycling
In support of the progress document on Government transport strategy, the Department for Transport (DfT) has also published evidence http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/scienceresear ... tizens.pdf from a 'citizens panel' and a literature review http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/scienceresear ... idence.pdf regarding public attitudes to transport issues. Nine out of 10 people believe that cycling should be encouraged, while according to the DfT's Cycling Factsheet http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/statistics/da ... tsheet.pdf , 37% of adults agree that 'many of the short journeys I now make by car I could just as easily cycle, if I had a bike'. Three quarters of respondents to another survey support the idea of a speed limit of 20 mph on residential streets, while 60% believe that cyclists and pedestrians should be given greater priority in cities, 'even if this makes things difficult for other road users'.

downfader

Hi Chuck! I read those the otherday. 8)

I have asked how many people at work use their car for journeys less than 4 miles, and also 1 mile: it seems to me that most use the car just to go to the corner shop. :shock: I have heard many moan about "I was stuck in traffic for X amount of time, someone should do something!"

When I inform them that I've done the same journey on the bike in about 20 minutes all they do is make excuses (raining, too old, not fit, too cold, too hot)

dondare

chuckcork wrote:

From the CTC:

Attitudes to cycling
In support of the progress document on Government transport strategy, the Department for Transport (DfT) has also published evidence http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/scienceresear ... tizens.pdf from a 'citizens panel' and a literature review http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/scienceresear ... idence.pdf regarding public attitudes to transport issues. Nine out of 10 people believe that cycling should be encouraged, while according to the DfT's Cycling Factsheet http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/statistics/da ... tsheet.pdf , 37% of adults agree that 'many of the short journeys I now make by car I could just as easily cycle, if I had a bike'. Three quarters of respondents to another survey support the idea of a speed limit of 20 mph on residential streets, while 60% believe that cyclists and pedestrians should be given greater priority in cities, 'even if this makes things difficult for other road users'.

It was precisely because of a Govt. survey like this that we now have all those cycle-lanes which everyone hates. People lie in surveys, they say that cycling should be encouraged but then sit in their cars and complain about cyclists.

dazzawazza

I find the logic that car drivers use strange when they complain that bicycle riders slow down their journey to work.
Isn’t there the slightest possibility that other motor vehicle on the road might be the culprits, not bicycles?
How can I be slowing down traffic when my journey to work is half the journey time of a car??
I admit on some long fast moving roads I may hold up traffic for seconds, but this is usually to the next set of red lights or traffic jam. It also allows traffic turning onto the road ahead of me, which are getting a faster journey for a while. I’m also usually travelling at over 20Mph anyway.

prj45

dazzawazza wrote:

Hmmm, how much rubber, plastic, metal and energy is used to manufacture the smallest, simplest and most environmentally friendly car. Then think about it for a 4X4.

A lot.

But then a lot goes into producing a bike (aluminium takes incredible amounts of energy to produce), so to say they have no environmental impact is plain wrong.

This doesn't mean complementing somebody who chooses a smaller vehicle, and admonishing somebody who chooses a ridiculous 4x4 for no otehr reason than to show off is wrong though (and surely the most environmentally friendly is a pushbike).

dazzawazza

prj45 wrote:

dazzawazza wrote:

Hmmm, how much rubber, plastic, metal and energy is used to manufacture the smallest, simplest and most environmentally friendly car. Then think about it for a 4X4.

A lot.

But then a lot goes into producing a bike (aluminium takes incredible amounts of energy to produce), so to say they have no environmental impact is plain wrong.

I agree and will think about it next time I buy a can of coke. However once produced, aluminium is a very easy product to recycle. Its a shame that many disgarded bicycles end up in landfill.

downfader

dazzawazza wrote:

I find the logic that car drivers use strange when they complain that bicycle riders slow down their journey to work.
Isn’t there the slightest possibility that other motor vehicle on the road might be the culprits, not bicycles?
How can I be slowing down traffic when my journey to work is half the journey time of a car??
I admit on some long fast moving roads I may hold up traffic for seconds, but this is usually to the next set of red lights or traffic jam. It also allows traffic turning onto the road ahead of me, which are getting a faster journey for a while. I’m also usually travelling at over 20Mph anyway.

If anything, on certain roads I find that cars and bigger tend to block off the sides of the road and thus slow me down. If there was a safe gap for me to get through I'd be off. Some drivers I swear see me and pull in to block the road off.

My brother said he was zipping a long one of our local roads and a pickup truck overtook him and immediately pulled over to the left. This left him with about a second to stop or end up crashing. :x It was all becase the guy was picking up his girlfriend - now he could have just done the sensible thing and waited 3 seconds. I tend to "let rip" with people like that. Thankfully they are VERY rare.

Belv

downfader wrote:

... all they do is make excuses (raining, too old, not fit, too cold, too hot)

I have a colleague who used to live a mile away from work by bicycle. His chosen method of commuting? A 2 mile drive by 2.5l V6 Mondeo. This guy has a below-average wage, is mid-thirties, healthy and used to cycle a lot in his youth. I couldn't persuade him to cycle so have no idea how to get 'the masses' on to 2 wheels.

dirk_van_gently

These ePetitions are a waste of time, just the bureaucrats way of dealing with masses of paper turning up on their doorstep with 100s or 1000s of signatures demanding that Goldfish be given equal rights with Dolphins.

dondare

I have just submitted a new petition: We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to Ban stupid people from driving cars.

Stupid people believe stupid things, such as "Speed cameras only exist to make money", "roads are made for cars" and "cyclists don't pay tax". These people are clearly a menace to themselves and all other road users.


I'll let you know if it's accepted.

Bassjunkieuk

dondare wrote:

I have just submitted a new petition: We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to Ban stupid people from driving cars.

Stupid people believe stupid things, such as "Speed cameras only exist to make money", "roads are made for cars" and "cyclists don't pay tax". These people are clearly a menace to themselves and all other road users.


I'll let you know if it's accepted.

Just post the link and I'm sure you'll get some signatures from here :-) The problem with motorist's is they never realize they are part of the problem when they complain about being stuck in traffic! There is no helping some people, my mum for example works at a local bank about 3 miles from her home. There are about 6 or 7 members of staff in at any given time and the car park only has 3 bays. She always drives in, despite having a perfectly good little bike in the garage. In actual fact my wife has ridden this bike more then my mum who I think only rode it up and down the aisle at Halfords when she got it about 10 years ago! She comes up with various excuses for why she won't cycle commute, despite request from other colleagues who do live further away for her to consider not driving in to free up the space! To top things off she could also get a bus or even walk, but still complains about spending £35 on half a tank of diesel.........

Parkey

downfader wrote:

...Oh and just read the last paragraph of THIS one to see why some people need to be intellectually screened before getting near a computer, LOL!!

"Green people might argue that cyclists deserve a tax break because they aren't polluting the environment, but cyclists burn energy similarly to cars: their increased demand for food isn't great for the environment."

Okay! Who's been eating coal for breakfast? Come on! Own up!

dondare

Stupid people also believe that cyclists are responsible for world food shortages, and that cars that run on biofuels make sound ecological sense.

Mr_Cellophane

I gave up looking at the petition site when I got exasperated by the appallingly bad use of the English language.

There have been several petitions similar to this one

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/goodenglish/

Notice though the lower case "e" in the "More details" section. :roll:

downfader

Mr_Cellophane wrote:

I gave up looking at the petition site when I got exasperated by the appallingly bad use of the English language.

There have been several petitions similar to this one

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/goodenglish/

Notice though the lower case "e" in the "More details" section. :roll:

Well Knuckles the Dog thought it was a good idea!

secretsam

teulk wrote:

the damage to the roads cycles cause is probably nil and the effect on the enviroment is nil. Also how would they enforce it ?

Ping. 10 points.

Studied this at University (BSocSc (Hons) Economics, Birmingham, 1991)

simple sentence: IT WON'T WORK