Mitochondria and all that jazz...

SteveR_100Milers

I found this interesting

http://www.biketechreview.com/performan ... ondria.htm

so the generally accepted wisdom of the odl grey haired racers of doing one clube 10 a week, plus 1 race, plus a couple of longer rides a week is all you need. (You could substitute a 2x20 instead of club 10's but that's no fun and for some of us we just cant "do" them).

Ric / Alex et al, comments?

Alex_Simmons/RST

SteveR_100Milers wrote:

I found this interesting

http://www.biketechreview.com/performan ... ondria.htm

so the generally accepted wisdom of the odl grey haired racers of doing one clube 10 a week, plus 1 race, plus a couple of longer rides a week is all you need. (You could substitute a 2x20 instead of club 10's but that's no fun and for some of us we just cant "do" them).

Ric / Alex et al, comments?

Well I didn't go through Kirk's 2 year old article but he usually makes sense.

Increasing mitochondral density is an important and desireable physiological change and is optimally done by riding sufficient volumes at higher aerobic intensities from sub-TT to VO2 max (keep this in mind whever the topic of weight lifting for cyclists comes up ).

So while such a training diet would result in a reasonably fit rider it doesn't negate other sound training principles, including judicious increases in workload in order to continually provide a training stimulus (and recovery as necessary).

A training diet that doesn't vary ends up with a stale rider. And the right mix in the intensity/duration balance varies rider to rider and within a rider's training depending on their unique physiological profile, response to training and phase of training/season.

SteveR_100Milers

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

SteveR_100Milers wrote:

I found this interesting

http://www.biketechreview.com/performan ... ondria.htm

so the generally accepted wisdom of the odl grey haired racers of doing one clube 10 a week, plus 1 race, plus a couple of longer rides a week is all you need. (You could substitute a 2x20 instead of club 10's but that's no fun and for some of us we just cant "do" them).

Ric / Alex et al, comments?

Well I didn't go through Kirk's 2 year old article but he usually makes sense.

Increasing mitochondral density is an important and desireable physiological change and is optimally done by riding sufficient volumes at higher aerobic intensities from sub-TT to VO2 max (keep this in mind whever the topic of weight lifting for cyclists comes up ).

So while such a training diet would result in a reasonably fit rider it doesn't negate other sound training principles, including judicious increases in workload in order to continually provide a training stimulus (and recovery as necessary).

A training diet that doesn't vary ends up with a stale rider. And the right mix in the intensity/duration balance varies rider to rider and within a rider's training depending on their unique physiological profile, response to training and phase of training/season.

i.e. in or around the "sweet spot"?

Alex_Simmons/RST

SteveR_100Milers wrote:

i.e. in or around the "sweet spot"?

While there is some adaptation at SST levels, the maximal impact comes through training at higher intensities, more around 10-mile TT pace to VO2 Max inducing levels.

SteveR_100Milers

So in order to improve 10TT and 25TT times, whats the optimum time per week spent at max V02 / 10TT levels? 1 club event midweek, plus 1 at the weekend, or two in the week? What about hill climbs on a long (2+ hours) ride that last for 20 minutes or so?

Toks

SteveR_100Milers wrote:

So in order to improve 10TT and 25TT times, whats the optimum time per week spent at max V02 / 10TT levels? 1 club event midweek, plus 1 at the weekend, or two in the week? What about hill climbs on a long (2+ hours) ride that last for 20 minutes or so?

I think thats a very specific question that requires some indepth knowledge of your training history, metabolic and aerobic stats etc. In fact i think thata a question for your coach

Alex_Simmons/RST

what Toks said

Alex_Simmons/RST

But here is a ROT to consider:

During your general training phase, and presuming training is consistent, every hour spent at ~ TT level* riding of at least 10-min contiguous durations will see a rise in your TT power of around 1-2 watts.

Working out the right dose of intensity sometimes requires application of the "Goldilocks Strategy".


* Coggan Level 4, or RST Zone 4/5

SteveR_100Milers

think thats a very specific question that requires some indepth knowledge of your training history, metabolic and aerobic stats etc. In fact i think thata a question for your coach

what Toks said

Somehow I thought that might be your answer.. But it seems no coach wants to give a one off bit of advice (and I dont mean for free) since i dont want to enrol on a continous programme. Books are an obvious source of cuh info, but its hardly rider/history specific....

During your general training phase, and presuming training is consistent, every hour spent at ~ TT level* riding of at least 10-min contiguous durations will see a rise in your TT power of around 1-2 watts.

Working out the right dose of intensity sometimes requires application of the "Goldilocks Strategy".

Am confused - 1-2 watt improvement for each hour at that level or for every 10 minutes within an hours ride??

And what do you mean by Goldilocks Strategy? (I don't eat porridge so this is a new one on me.... )

I'm getting really frustrated about the lack of improvement is TT results, yet I know I am getting faster - I often time fixed distance loops, and also hill climbs so I can track a rough trend (for example improving a 38 mile loop by 20 minutes isnt simply just down to favourable road conditions and summer bike). Hill climb times are perhaps an even better indication of increased power (as my weight hasnt changed much in the last 3 months) and wind resistance is far less of a factor at such slow speeds, plus the hills that I specifically use are pretty well sheltered by trees for the most part. I noticed the same trend last year: I hardly made any progress in my 10TT times, certainly none that you could call statistically significant anway. I average about 6-8 hours a week all year, and most of that is ridden at tempo + effort levels.
Think the problem must be in my head

Alex_Simmons/RST

OK.

Add up all the time in a week you spend at ~ TT levels. I don't mean looking at histograms with the % in this or that zone (they are wrong but not going into that now).

I mean add up all the time at ~ TT level where you spent at least 10-minutes at that level in any contiguous block.

e.g. say you did 2 x 20-min @ 90% of 10-mile TT pace twice per week.
and one 10-mile TT on the weekend.

That's 2 x 2 x 20-min + say a 25 min TT = 105 min @ ~ TT levels = 1.75 hrs.

You can expect FTP to increase by around 1-2 watts for each hour spent at this level, 1.75 hrs = ~ 2-3W improvement in FTP.

By Goldilocks Strategy I mean:

Take a strategy of volume of L4 efforts. If it's too much, you won't like it and won't be able to sustain it.

If it's not enough, you won't feel sufficiently taxed/fatigued/challenged.

With feeback from trying things, you adjust until it's "just right" as Goldilocks would say.

SteveR_100Milers

Eureka, thank you Alex. Much appreciated.

nmcgann

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

But here is a ROT to consider:

During your general training phase, and presuming training is consistent, every hour spent at ~ TT level* riding of at least 10-min contiguous durations will see a rise in your TT power of around 1-2 watts.

Working out the right dose of intensity sometimes requires application of the "Goldilocks Strategy".


* Coggan Level 4, or RST Zone 4/5

That is very interesting Alex, I don't think I've ever seen the rate or absolute value of power gain actually quantified like that. Do you have any references to studies where that was tested?

Neil

Jeff Jones

It is interesting, but surely there's a half life of a few weeks where some of those gains are lost? Otherwise you could do one hour a week and be as good as Cancellara in a couple of years.

SteveR_100Milers

Jeff, I thought about the same too. Question is what happens to the new mitochondria if you dont use them enough...
I guess though that even with an incease in the mitochondria density, you cannot improve beyond a theoretical max dictated by your V02 max?

I am assuming though that worst case you need to maintain fitness in order not to lose the aerobic engine, perhaps by 3-4 hours tempo riding a week?

It's not like anearobic fitness from sprinting, which seems to disappear in hours....

beatsystem

i would like to say what a great and helpful answer this has been so useful. thanks even tho' I dint ask the question I have learnt an awful lot from the replies.Thanks this is so useful

Alex_Simmons/RST

Jeff Jones wrote:

It is interesting, but surely there's a half life of a few weeks where some of those gains are lost? Otherwise you could do one hour a week and be as good as Cancellara in a couple of years.

I refer you to exhibit A:

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

But here is a ROT to consider:

During your general training phase, and presuming training is consistent, every hour spent at ~ TT level* riding of at least 10-min contiguous durations will see a rise in your TT power of around 1-2 watts.

Working out the right dose of intensity sometimes requires application of the "Goldilocks Strategy".


* Coggan Level 4, or RST Zone 4/5

nmcgann wrote:

That is very interesting Alex, I don't think I've ever seen the rate or absolute value of power gain actually quantified like that. Do you have any references to studies where that was tested?

Neil

No studies, just the experience of a few coaches who have swapped notes on specialist forums dedicated to power based topics.

In the end, if you do work at the right levels in the right doses, you'll improve. To a point