LPR Brakes

iainf72

So FanBoy should be applied to Slipstream / CSC and High Horse I guess. They all seem to inspire this wierd kind of devotion.

colint

I don't see whats wrong with following a particular team, personally I follow a few riders, but if you're new to the sport it must give an added interest to see how "your" team is doing in a race.

I find all this "you like this team so you're not a real cycling fan" absolutely ridiculous.

Follow a rider, follow a team, follow nobody - at least people are watching the sport.

Jez mon

For me fanboy always evokes an image of an American, who thinks LA is the only cyclist and that the Tour is the only race.

flattythehurdler

colint wrote:

I find this whole thread really sad, if you think the standard of every riders performance is only realted to the quality of the doping then what's the point of watching ? If it's a bad performance = they didn't dope enough, good performance = high doping.

How can derive any enjoyment from watching the sport if all you can talk about is the doping ? If it's so bad, why don't you turn off and do something else ?

With respect Blazing, I think you're a bit obsessed about this doping thing. If you can't enjoy it as a sport, why watch ?

I am the same as blazin though. I want so badly to believe, and I keep tuning in hoping to see some evidence of equality, but seem to get my hopes dashed as soon as the mountains start. I just can't help it though, I have to watch.

colint

so what do you need to see to convince you of equality ? Every single result seems to be interpreted from a doping perspective. What result yesterday would have proved a clean race ? Everyone crossing the line holding hands ?

Sorry Flatty but I just don't get it. If theres evidence of doping lets slaughter them, but if there isn't, can't we just watch the race ?

blazing_saddles

I'm amazed I get singled out for being obsessed with doping, Colin. I thought I was the one of the few, partially defending the smaller teams from accusations of uber-doping! :?

Here's a bit of evidence to support these lads. I saw this Dolomite Mountaintop finish, two weeks before the Giro, as I have Italian tv. I do follow pro racing, quite a bit! :oops:

1 Vincenzo Nibali (Ita) Liquigas 4.33.44 (37.92 km/h)
2 Franco Pelizzotti (Ita) Liquigas 0.12
3 Gilberto Simoni (Ita) Serramenti PVC Diquigiovani
4 Fortunato Baliani (Ita) CSF Group Navigare
5 Stefano Garzelli (Ita) Acqua&Sapone-Caffe' Mokambo
6 Francesco Bellotti (Ita) Barloworld
7 Robert Kiserlovski (Cro) Adria Mobil
8 Danilo Di Luca (Ita) LPR Brakes
9 Florian Stadler (Swi) Team Volksbank
10 Sylvester Szmid (Pol) Lampre
11 Emanuele Sella (Ita) CSF Group Navigare
12 Jose Serpa Perez (Col) Serramenti PVC Diquigiovani
13 Evgeni Petrov (Rus) Tinkoff Credit Systems
14 Massimo Giunti (Ita) Miche - Silver Cross
15 Domenico Pozzovivo (Ita) CSF Group Navigare
16 Eddy Ratti (Ita) Team Nippo Endeka
17 Daniele Pietropolli (Ita) LPR Brakes
18 Jure Golcer (Slo) LPR Brakes

Indeed, Pozzovivo's attack was only caught at the line.
Just to show, the passed two days haven't been a flash in the pan.

flattythehurdler

Even Harmon and kelly said yesterday that it was "scarcely believable"

flattythehurdler

colint wrote:

so what do you need to see to convince you of equality ? Every single result seems to be interpreted from a doping perspective. What result yesterday would have proved a clean race ? Everyone crossing the line holding hands ?

Sorry Flatty but I just don't get it. If theres evidence of doping lets slaughter them, but if there isn't, can't we just watch the race ?

Tgis in a way is my point. I wish i could, but I can't. The problem is mine.

secretsqirrel

micron wrote:

iain I agree - I am a fan of the sport rather than any team. But there does seem to exist a blind devotion to USDiscatana that seems to preclude a knowledge of the sport as a whole in favour of a blinkered, teamcentric view that excludes any aspects of the sport that the team are not involved with. It is this attitude that grates with me and that can make 'fanboys' appear ignorant.

Oh! This makes me feel very uncomfortable.
Although I am more of the T-Mobstana school of fanboyism! I am obviously missing the whole point, not watching the sport, from a coldly objective, non-partisan, scientific, poe-faced point of view. Silly me! :oops:

I have yet to see any blinkered opinions on this forum that have not been countered by other blinkered opinions. That is what makes it a forum!

I probably love Astana, as much as Blaze hates them.
But at least we are both Tom Boonen groupies

blazing_saddles

flattythehurdler wrote:

Even Harmon and kelly said yesterday that it was "scarcely believable"

That would be the same Harmon and Kelly that think Contador being able to win flat time trials is normal. :roll:

Surprisingly, I don't hate Astana. I've always admired a great climber, and that is what Bertie is. Kloeden's always appeared a classy rider and even Levi has produced one of my favourite rides, on the Rettenbachferner, during the 2005 Tour of Germany.
If Contador doesn't just sit on everybody's wheel, all day, on the Gavia and Mortirolo, but attacks and wins the Giro in style, that's good. Probably a good result for the sport.
I'd be more than happy if Dennis Menchov could take the GC, with so little team support.

However, I find aspects of this Astana "love affair", distasteful.

For instance, if any of the 3 riders above had done a "Sella", yesterday, we'd be awash with praise. As it is, we are awash with accusations and finger pointing.
That is the essence of the team fan and it does the sport an injustice.
If the forementioned Dennis Menchov wins, I wonder how long it will be, before Rasmussen and the Rabo blood bank comments appear, here?

Of the fans of Astana, I know there are a handful here, who were supporting their efforts when Vino was the man. I applaud their loyalty.
I also suspect that the Astana of last year, were the target of many accusers, who now cheer them on.

I try desperately to follow the sport on an even keel. I know I lapse into the subjective, more than I should.
However, around here, I'm certainly not on my own.

Let's face it. It is so hard to find middle ground in this sport.

iainf72

colint wrote:

I find all this "you like this team so you're not a real cycling fan" absolutely ridiculous.

Follow a rider, follow a team, follow nobody - at least people are watching the sport.

Oh, there's nothing wrong with it. I don't get it is all (ditto people supporting riders based on their nationality)

If you take a team like High Horse, I like George H, Marco Pinotti, Ciolek and am indifferent to having an active dislike for some of the others. And that pattern follows for most teams.

iainf72

Blazing Saddles wrote:

I'd be more than happy if Dennis Menchov could take the GC, with so little team support.

Any guy who wins the Vuelta without requiring to open his mouth while climbing is A-OK with me :P

I'd just like to see something impressive. Like the Giro 05 where it came down to the wire and the 2nd last stage was so damn exciting.

DaveyL

Glad you mentioned the 2005 Giro, iain. I was just thinking that you could basically make BS's argument for that race too, when Ivan Parra and Jose Rujano (from the SMALL team of Selle Italia) tore it up on back-to-back mountain stages.

blazing_saddles

Yes, we'd be in serious trouble, if we didn't want excitement. As for the Colle di Finestre and the 2005 Giro as a whole. One of the greatest GT's in recent history.

Smaller teams stir things up. They have to. It's their one big chance for publicity for the season.
It's the reason the tour organisers are so opposed to having 20 PT teams, sitting in a bunch, waiting for things to formulate.

Pro Conti's role is to agitate and get stage victories. They've almost all enjoyed success at this race. Good on 'em, I say. Especially with all the "names" playing this neverending cat 'n' mouse.

forearms Van Petegem

DaveyL wrote:

Glad you mentioned the 2005 Giro, iain. I was just thinking that you could basically make BS's argument for that race too, when Ivan Parra and Jose Rujano (from the SMALL team of Selle Italia) tore it up on back-to-back mountain stages.

not only those 2.

Van Huffel and Ardilla climbed out of their arse, Lotto ha their altitude tents and a hundred odd hypodermic needles confiscated. Reminds me a little of Vandenbroeck and De Greef. Climbing beyond themselves.

Still, nothing compares to Andy Schleck's BS performances last year. Damsgaard should be ropable his tests were shown to be a sham virtue of Schleck jnr.

iainf72

Van Huffel was riding for Disco basically. Funny he's never replicated that form again. Neither has Rujano.

Anyway, a few months later Dr Ferrari posted thison his site which I thought was really interesting

blazing_saddles

Rujano's just set the fastest time on Corones, by over 2 minutes! :shock:

The last km is brutal. He never got out of the saddle, once.

LangerDan

Blazing Saddles wrote:

Rujano's just set the fastest time on Corones, by over 2 minutes! :shock:

The last km is brutal. He never got out of the saddle, once.

You can't - the back wheel would spin like crazy. He has little enough weight on the wheels as it is!

frenchfighter

Blazing Saddles - good comments, and backing your point up with actual facts and information is useful.

Does anyone have a link to show who has signed the anti-doping charter?

Arkibal

colint wrote:

I find this whole thread really sad, if you think the standard of every riders performance is only realted to the quality of the doping then what's the point of watching ? If it's a bad performance = they didn't dope enough, good performance = high doping.

How can derive any enjoyment from watching the sport if all you can talk about is the doping ? If it's so bad, why don't you turn off and do something else ?

With respect Blazing, I think you're a bit obsessed about this doping thing. If you can't enjoy it as a sport, why watch ?

+1 (goes for micron as well)

Birillo

I find this whole thread really sad, if you think the standard of every riders performance is only realted to the quality of the doping then what's the point of watching ? If it's a bad performance = they didn't dope enough, good performance = high doping.

How can derive any enjoyment from watching the sport if all you can talk about is the doping ? If it's so bad, why don't you turn off and do something else ?

Please don't confuse scepticism with cynicism. People ask awkward questions about exceptional performances because a) they've learned not to accept them at face value, and b) they care about the integrity of the sport. Would you prefer cycling fans to be happy in their ignorance?

Arkibal

I agree about the small teams stirring things up, however I'd be much more happier had they signed the anti-doping charter.......

You honestly think that any Astana rider would have allowed to pull a brake like Sella did??? No way!

And it is now hopefully finally clear to everyone, that the team DID indeed find out a week before they got the invitation, the nonsence of them knowing about it moths before is simply rubbish.

micron

Even though Sean Yates admitted they knew at least a month before on ESUK? And the Khazak sports minister is on record saying the details had been worked out some time before the 'surprise' invite - the Giro loves drama, don't you remember when Pantani turned up to compete totally 'unexpectedly' the day before the race started?

Sella lost significant time in a crash giving him the leeway to be allowed to attack because he was no longer a threat on GC. Of course the Astana riders wouldn't have been allowed to get away in a break because of their superior GC placings - neither would Ricco or Gibo or Di Luca, for that matter - for better or worse, those are the tactics of the modern sport. I suspect we will see Leipheimer or Kloeden in a break in the last week because they have now slipped out of contention.

However, if the poor performance of Leipheimer and Kloeden is proof that Astana had no time to prepare, please explain how Contador is wearing the leader's jersey when he has hayfever, dental infection (he was at the dentists on the first rest day), a cracked elbow and was on the beach when the unexpected call to compete came?

Birillo, you make a good point, but the sceptic cannot pick and choose - either one must question every 'exceptional' performance or accept them all for what they are. We cannot hold Sella up to a scrutiny that we refuse for Contador - just as the UCI should not, for example, have pursued Mayo as they did whilst supporting other riders.

blazing_saddles

Arkibal wrote:

I agree about the small teams stirring things up, however I'd be much more happier had they signed the anti-doping charter.......

You honestly think that any Astana rider would have allowed to pull a brake like Sella did??? No way!

And it is now hopefully finally clear to everyone, that the team DID indeed find out a week before they got the invitation, the nonsence of them knowing about it moths before is simply rubbish.

Astana had no knowledge of moths at the Giro. :oops:

Who's obssessed with doping again? Anti doping charter......Very lock tight. Just ask Patrick Sinkewitz.
Astana riders in Sella like breaks? Anyone with a decent grasp of cycling tactics should understand why it happened.

With Contador in pink, and looking a good bet to take the GC, your disdain for the abilities of the rest of the peloton, shines like a beacon, from your final paragraph.

There is certainly a poster around this thread with an obssession, but it isn't dope fueled.

Micron: Excellent point about the UCI's pursuit of Mayo, whilst allowing other riders, a free pass.
Hopefully, the new OP document will force them into action.
It seems, just like the fans, they have their favourites and their whipping boys.


Finally, back to the actual thread topic. It looks like LPR, having over-stretched themselves during the first 10 days, are beginning to show signs of wear and tear.