Why are full suss bikes faster than HT bikes?

Nick Dastardly

supersonic wrote:

I reckon I could build a 16lb hardtail for 7.5k

I reckon for free I could imagine I was riding a bike and save another 16lb.

I've only ever ridden a hardtail and I can leave 90% of people for dead on most terrain, particularly on climbs. Thinking of making the jump to full suspension in a couple of months when I start my new job but I am a bit worried I'll struggle up climbs and get lazy about line choice on DH sections.

Surf-Matt

supersonic wrote:

Does look the business! Though the Scott Spark LTD has a lighter frame by 200g!!! (3.96lbs WITH shock!)

I reckon I could build a 16lb hardtail for 7.5k

Both would break far too easily though.

Nick - fancy an uphill race at some stage? Just for fun of course!

I reckon a HT is a bit like a high performance shortboard (see my avatar!), a FS is a bit like a cruisier mini mal.

Nick Dastardly

Surf-Matt wrote:

Nick - fancy an uphill race at some stage? Just for fun of course!
/quote]

Sounds like a challenge!

Surf-Matt

Rather a distance from Cornwall to Loughborough though.

But worth thinking about!

KonaMike

Interesting thread this !! I have always ridden Hardtails because when I started MTB'ing thats all there was,then I slowly parted with my rigid Project 2 forks and accepted front suspension. However I have never been tempted by a Full Sus bike .......until last Sunday that is !! My mate Rob has recently changed from a Hardtail to a Full Sus,its a 2003 Giant NRS,straight away I have noticed how much harder it is to keep up with him on the Rocky Cwmcarm XC trail.I'm quicker on the uphill but he gets away from me on the downhill sections to the extent that I came off on Sunday whilst trying to keep up !!
Now I'm torn between improving my skills,fitness and line choices or just buying myself a Giant Anthem ,part of me would miss my Hardtail though as that is all I have ever known so to me that is mountain biking :?

dirtbiker100

who said you had to get rid of your hardtail? Despite me saying earlier how full sus are quicker i am also an advocate of everyone having a hardtail as well. they are a hell of a lot of fun, they make you think about your riding and well they're a hardtail!

Nick Dastardly

Surf-Matt wrote:

Rather a distance from Cornwall to Loughborough though.

But worth thinking about!

Then one of us has just escaped a humiliating defeat! (probably myself)

supersonic

Surf-Matt wrote:

supersonic wrote:

Does look the business! Though the Scott Spark LTD has a lighter frame by 200g!!! (3.96lbs WITH shock!)

I reckon I could build a 16lb hardtail for 7.5k

Both would break far too easily though.

Nick - fancy an uphill race at some stage? Just for fun of course!

I reckon a HT is a bit like a high performance shortboard (see my avatar!), a FS is a bit like a cruisier mini mal.

You'd be suprised how tough the Spark is - I've seen them tested at full travel over very demanding terrain.

Re a certain article in a certain magazine - flawed. They pitted a 2k hardtail that weighed nearly 28lbs against a 3k full susser. Not a fair test, you should go on price for testing like this, and there are FAR lighter bikes for 2k than the one they tested. The article was biased, and some of the testing unfair.

brett1980

so in conclusion...

Blundell

It guts me to say it but on the majority of trails a light FS like the spark or anthem are probably the fastest beasts to get around on. I say this even though I gurn over hardtails. I have a local loop that has some relatively technical single track over pebbles, large roots and mega rutted ground and at the moment my giant anthem holds the lap record, even though it is considerably heavier than my hardtails. This bike is so fast around the loop becasue it can constantly keep traction on the technical rooty single track (of which there is a damn lot). On my hardtails you have to ride the same roots in a much more 'staccatoed' manner. It has a decent gradient change, but you can ride the inclines in the middle ring. I think as soon as you get on the real real steep technical climbs that demand granny ring spinning a hardtail would come back in pole position, as it does on my other local loop which is effectively a proper hill-fest.
I suppose that one of the main problems with heavier FS bikes is the energy that is needed to accelerate the greater mass up to a similar speed. Just becasue it is heavier doen't make it inherently slower, indeed once it is up to speed it will maintain that speed with more ease than a lighter bike (inertia and all). It's the actual accelration bouts that are the killers.

Damn.. looks like I've got to try and get one of my hardtails fastest tomorra!

supersonic

I'd love to get the Idrive as light as the Zaskar... but the cost would be phenomenal.

Blundell

Yeah I know where yo're coming from Supersonic, I'd like to get my anthem as light as possible, thing is it would be more cost effective to buy either a spark or an anthem advance from the off.
Also as much as I moan about the spanitou r7's they are pretty light, in fact with their new diet of loads of oil on a super regualr basis they seem to be getting abit better.

Bet that i-drive feels like spiderman grip in the rough?

supersonic

It is fantastic - at only 4 inches it is going to pedal well anyway, but with Idirve it feels just flies, and real does dig in on climbs.

I got a Manitou Skareb on the Zaskar - its a bit reluctant in the initial bit of the stroke, but once going, quite linear. God knows why they put a steel steerer on it, should be sub 3lbs.

amt27

not sure if this has been mentioned already but....

full suspension bikes are designed for high cadence pedalling, which is more efficient, therefore the rider uses less energy and can ride for long,
if you hammer a big gear the rear suspension is likely to bob, giving a horrible ride experience,
bobbing is causes my the frequency of the oscillations of the mass of the riders leg muscles, higher cadence = high frequency = more balanced forces acting on the rear suspension,
you have to be quite disaplined to ride high cadence on a HT unless it is your natural style, on a FS you have to ride high cadence unless you nearly lock out the rear, there is no point in having a locked out FS bike as you might aswell have a HT,

i have ridden HT for the last 15 year, took 3 months off the bike at the beginning of this year, bought my first FS bike, on my second ride i rode up a hill which i had to get off in sections last year and i rode longer than any ride from the previous year

dhxcme

Full-sus isn't necessarily faster than Hard-tail. There's a huge number of things that effect the speed they go. Terrain type, weather, rig setup or even who rides them.

Thewaylander

Hardtails definately are where to start in my view, you learn alot of very important skills.. Line choice weighting the bike abosorbing trail noise and so on. but I still prefer my full susser,

As an example had a friend on his hardtail with me at Whites level this weekend, we climbed at about the same pace, but he just couldnt keep up on the downs and after where i could have happily of carried on,he had a sore back from the trail. Full sussers helps you to ride all day with out thought.

I still would like a hardtail for taking out on a trail every now and then keep the skills sharp! but have a fully rigid onza to help keep me skills up!

dhxcme

Full sus lets you get away with making mistakes.

Thewaylander

No, thats rubbish, its not a mistake if your still on the bike, its just a line that is now possible that wasnt on a hard tail. So many hardtail people say that because they can not ride the same lines and get away with the same aggresive styles of riding

dhxcme

Not the way I ment it. A full sus will allow you to take angles a HT wouldn't. You could take on a trail thats bumpy as hell on a ful sus and suffer no effect where a hardtail would leave you bashed and broken.

Anonymous

But it;s not exactly a mistake, is it?

dhxcme

Taking the smoothest trail is the best way, shock or no shock but having enough spring to take the rougher road (mistake) will turn it into a bit of fun.

BlackSpur

dhxcme wrote:

Taking the smoothest trail is the best way

I disagree. There is no "best" way to take a line, there is the fastest (which often is not necessarily the smoothest), there is the most fun (personal preference), there is one which may be more comfortable, but no "best".

Anonymous

I agree with BlackSpur.

MontanaGMT

I am trying to learn something here, but every1 is contradicting each other.

Surly if the back-end is bobbing up and down that is lost energy. So when pedaling a hardtail is better (unless extreme conditions are present). And on downhill stretches and some flat land, a full sus is best.

Andy B

Pedal bob is almost non existent with a decent frame & shock set up.

I still stand by my 1st post, it's all to do with traction & the wheels following the terrain, no matter how low a tyre pressure you have on a hardtail, in my opinion a susser will be faster.

Learning to ride properly on a hardtail and then transferring those lines to a full susser will produce a faster time & a smother ride.

dhxcme

I feel that a hardtail maks me take lines i necessarly don't want to. A full sus does what it's told to and because of the rear shock it doesn't answer back.

Anonymous

You mean a full suss bike is your b*tch, whereas a hardtail is your wife

NikB

MontanaGMT wrote:

I am trying to learn something here, but every1 is contradicting each other.

Surly if the back-end is bobbing up and down that is lost energy. So when pedaling a hardtail is better (unless extreme conditions are present). And on downhill stretches and some flat land, a full sus is best.

By that argument you could suggest that no suspension at all is better. Having just made the leap from a rigid bike to a full suss I can certainly say that in my case the full suss is faster apart from on completely flat fire road where the rigid bike was faster perhaps due to a more aggressive race type geometry.

FSR_XC

Surf-Matt wrote:

Try going up a hill - a hardtail will win every time - unless ridden by a total spanner.

Matt

Shall I mention a certain slope that a few of us attempted to climb?

Surf-Matt

FSR_XC wrote:

Surf-Matt wrote:

Try going up a hill - a hardtail will win every time - unless ridden by a total spanner.

Matt

Shall I mention a certain slope that a few of us attempted to climb?

Yes but that was being ridden on a HT by a total spanner... :oops:

I meant long grizzly uphills.