Why are full suss bikes faster than HT bikes?

brett1980

I don't they are faster....Please explain

Regardsget it. Full suss are mostly heavier than a hard tail but people say that

Andy B

Full sussers can be faster in some conditions, with rear sus you get more traction over loose terrain & rocky sections (uphill & downhill). They're also less tiring over longer distances.

For bikes of the same value, generally full sussers are a little heavier.

I'm a full suss convert (Orange 5, 28 lbs), my hardtail (Orange Gringo, also 28lbs) is just too much for my ageing back.

dirtbiker100

cwmcarn XC track which admittedly is technical/rocky/rooty on the up and technical/rocky/rooty on the way down has given me a place to set some personal bests:
marin alpine trail (5" front and 4-6" rear) - 1 hour 17 i think
on-one inbred 456 (5" front and same parts as the above bike) - 1 hour 19
marin quake (7" front and rear freeride bike) - 1 hour 13

now my fitness has steadily gone up over the 6 months those times have been taken but still its interesting results.

on the other hand i've done a bit of DH in the forest of dean and i think a hardtail would be better there due to the trails.

stumpyjon

You can still pedal on the rough stuff with a full suss instead of just hanging on. Made the mistake of taking my hardtail out last weekend instead of the full suss and got way left behind and was completely knackered at the end and my hardtail is pretty light. Would've still been at the back on the FS but at least I could have kept up on some of the flat technical bits and not been quite as kanckered at the end (the other 3 were all on 5" plus FSs ).

dave_hill

In the hands of a good rider, both types are just as capable.

The reason that you will sometimes be slower on a hardtail is that you have to pick your line more carefully whereas with a double squidger you don't have to be as fussy.

It was noticeable on a group ride last Thursday that out of eleven of us, seven were riding hardtails. They were always the first to the top of the climbs (bar one full susser but the rider is unreasonably fit), but the squidgers were always miles ahead when it came to rocky/rooty sections and rough downhills.

I'm not a natural climber by any stretch of the imagination, and I feel that my abilities are flattered somewhat by a hardtail - I'll always be faster climbing on a hardtail - but on balance the improved comfort and control that a full bounce bike gives you wins every time.

Surf-Matt

Try going up a hill - a hardtail will win every time - unless ridden by a total spanner.

Chaka Ping

Surf-matt - that's not really true.

My Anthem (FS) is a far better climber than my Handjob (HT), it's more down to frame angles - and rear suspension can help on a bumpy climb also.

Surf-Matt

Okay - an XC specific hardtail is better at climbing than anything else. Not a single joule of energy lost on a good HT.

dave_hill

Surf-Matt wrote:

Not a single joule of energy lost on a good HT.

Errr.... again not true in the strictest sense...any good physicist or engineer will tell you that no mechanism is 100% efficient... :?

Surf-Matt

Yes Dave and I'm a Mat Eng graduate. If you need to be a complete pedant then "hardly a single joule of energy is lost..." - I find full sussers STILL rob you of energy up hills - even the very best ones.
Then there's the extra few pounds in weight. Any good physicist or engineer will tell you that this slows an object down too...

bishbish

i have yet to meet a clown hill bike faster than my sub 22 lb titanium xtr hard tail(unless its extra bling and ridden by a xc animal who generally dos`nt pay for his jersey)
you may get down cwmcarn 5 secs faster but you wont see me unless i have a cup of tea a sleep and a nice peice of cake at the top. 1 lap 2 dabs and one peice i could not clean(middle of steep bit after crossing road half way up) sub hour lap (57 ish) at 1st visit.
oh yes v brakes.get the bike under 25lbs with front and rear lockout eg scott and you may have the `fastest` bike but julian absolem dont think so his speed over the rocks in world champs on sids compared to just about evrybody was awsome . but i have heard he is quite fit.
OLD SKULE BABY v`s sids weight weenies and fitness(lots)

dirtbiker100

yeah you are pushing it there matt,
a full sus xc bike would get up cwmcarn quicker than a hardtail i think as its just so technical and bumpy. i've been up it on both and it felt much better on a full sus. also theres's always energy lost on any bike. just some lose less than others.

dirtbiker100

bishbish wrote:

i have yet to meet a clown hill bike faster than my sub 22 lb titanium xtr hard tail(unless its extra bling and ridden by a xc animal who generally dos`nt pay for his jersey)
you may get down cwmcarn 5 secs faster but you wont see me unless i have a cup of tea a sleep and a nice peice of cake at the top. 1 lap 2 dabs and one peice i could not clean(middle of steep bit after crossing road half way up) sub hour lap (57 ish) at 1st visit.
oh yes v brakes.get the bike under 25lbs with front and rear lockout eg scott and you may have the `fastest` bike but julian absolem dont think so his speed over the rocks in world champs on sids compared to just about evrybody was awsome . but i have heard he is quite fit.
OLD SKULE BABY v`s sids weight weenies and fitness(lots)

ha well i just spoke to a friend who's done 43 min round cwmcarn on a full sus along with 4 laps in under 4 hours including a puncture... the record is 38 but not sure what bike that's on.

P-Jay

Courses for horses tbh. HT are more efficent, no doubt. as far as pedaling goes anyway. But if you can't get any grip because of the terain. Like for like a HT will outclimb a big FS. There's exceptions to every rule of course. Big HT like a Spesh P all-mountain or Norco Sashquach v a Spesh Epic?

Going back to Cwmcarn (becuase I'm local to it) takes me an age to get to the top becuase:

I've got a 6" FS
I use highrollers, and 'ramped tread' tyres aren't exactly great griping loose stuff.
But mostly because I'm not very fit.

I get passed, on a busy weekend day by about 6-8 other riders all lycra clad and HT equiped, but usually pass the lot of them on the way down. I'd take the Pepsi challenge with any non-pro riding HT rider on the final descents at Cwm. And what's more fun? Climbing or descending

johnnypipe85

I agree with dirtbiker,
It all depends from the surface. the point that surf-matt is making it's only valid on the road or very smooth trail. once you start bouncing about over bumps and rock and losing grip you start wishing you'd had a FS.
I find my Epic does the job perfectly (for my level of fitness and capability) on any surface climbing a hill...

dirtbiker100

My before mentioned friend has just said that i could mention the what mountain bike article where they did a back to back test with 2 riders and a HT and a full sus. They went up the first bit of the skyline trail at afan and down the end of the skyline trail and the full sus bike was quickest for both riders...

Surf-Matt

P-Jay wrote:

And what's more fun? Climbing or descending

I think I'm in the minority here because I really enjoy a good climb...

robmanic1

I prefer a good technical climb these days too, mainly because my nerve's gone on fast descents now.
Im sure I'm quicker uphill on my hardtail than my bouncer, but that could be down to poor technique plus the extra weight penalty (that could be more mental than physical though).

P-Jay

Surf-Matt wrote:

P-Jay wrote:

And what's more fun? Climbing or descending

I think I'm in the minority here because I really enjoy a good climb...

Yeah I know, yah sadist! Ha ha.

There are a few cllimbs I enjoy, Brecfa's good because it's good plenty of interesting stuff to look at and it's very long but not steep which suits me. I'm not quite at MTB nivana level when be you can enjoy the whole thing equally. I'm still of the "cimbs are the payment you make for the descents and as a happy side effect they make me fitter" school of thought

Perhaps I need to do more off road tour type rides than just hitting the man-made MTB concentrate trail centres all the time.

zero303

I ride with a big group of similar abilities and most own a full suss and a hardtail. The only time the HT is ever quicker is when the terrain is quite easy going and pointing up. As soon as it gets slightly rough, all agree that the bouncer is the way to go - up, down and flat.

I dispatch CwmCarn style climbs much better on my Five than my P7 ever did.

Many will say that a full suss allows you to be quite lazy with line choices but quite often where I ride, the cleanest line ends up being still pretty rough. Being able go light in the body and skip through without losing speed is the reason a full suss is quicker... each metre long rock or root garden can allow me to open up 10 or more bike lengths over an equal ability rider on a HT.

Pumping the bike off of downs is easier on a full suss so your average rider will be able to carry more free speed (very skilled 4x and jumps riders will have no issue pumping a HT just as well , if not better though, but lets face it, most of us are everyday average riders!)

toasty

It depends where you ride and what your fitness is like, I ride around Cannock Chase most weekends. It's fairly tame so it's much faster racing around on the hardtail, I generally come in about 2-3 minutes faster than I do on the Meta and a good chunk less tired after hills.

The Meta is far more fun though :twisted:

bishbish

ha well i just spoke to a friend who's done 43 min round cwmcarn on a full sus along with 4 laps in under 4 hours including a puncture... the record is 38 but not sure what bike that's on.

yes well i might go for a time next time and not have 3 go`s at the bit a didnt clean any way watch the wc xc racers see what the majority of them ride. really tho if i could afford the hyper light fs`s like the meridia or scott i would like to give it a go but my hard tail was a bit pricy and its simple light and durable . i bet the fastest lap is on a rigid which proves ME right...........
unless i am wrong obviously
nick craig is rumoured to play there and he rides a fs i hear he is quite fast

dave_hill

Surf-Matt wrote:

Yes Dave and I'm a Mat Eng graduate. If you need to be a complete pedant then "hardly a single joule of energy is lost..." - I find full sussers STILL rob you of energy up hills - even the very best ones.
Then there's the extra few pounds in weight. Any good physicist or engineer will tell you that this slows an object down too...

Touche! :roll:

icedmind

well if a xc spec hardtail(carbon) it will climb and should be the quickest overall
if more rockey-single track then i think full sus is quicker

passout

FS are faster on proper Hills/Mountains - but on an XC course it's 50/50 depending on conditions and riding style.

TommyK

Wow what a great divider!!! Getting bitchy in here too girls....claws away!
For southern england where us fairies live with fast flowing forests and valleys I find my hardtail is spot on with a rigid fork it's an 18lb missile. For rocky Celtic parts of wales and scotland a sus is the obvious choice....no substitute for a skilled rider though!

bikeperson45

I don't need full suss because I'm too cool

stubs

Horses for courses anything under a 3 hour ride I would rather ride a hard tail anything longer and the tiredness starts to kick in there have been times when I just want to sit down switch off and let the bike do the work on bumpy downhills riding a hardtail or even more so a rigid means 100% concentration which is not easy when you are knackered

What I really want is a bike that is a 20 lb hardtail uphill and on smooth singletrack
turns into a mental 30 lb long fork hardtail on the downhills and becomes a full suss when I am pooped and need a helping hand on the long drag back home

supersonic

Budget, abilty and terrain. For 1k, you can get hardtails that are 5 or 6 pounds lighter than most full sussers, and for XC and general trail riding thwy will be more efficient, and climb that terrain better.

I am lucky to own two bikes, an Idirve for rough terrain at about 30lbs, and a Zaskar at 22lbs ish. The Zaskar just totally smokes it on anything but rough downhill stretches, and uphill blows it away.

BlackSpur

That new Merida FSer would probably blow most hardtails away everywhere! It is £7500 though :?

supersonic

Does look the business! Though the Scott Spark LTD has a lighter frame by 200g!!! (3.96lbs WITH shock!)

I reckon I could build a 16lb hardtail for 7.5k