The slow demise of (amateur) Testing
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I sent an email to the top banana at CTT to ask him to respond to some of the issues in this thread.0
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Big mistake. You should have printed off the thread and posted it to him...Le Blaireau (1)0
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................or attached it to the leg of a friendly carrier pigeon
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You do realise that he'll send you a reply by snail mail with the one line: H99/18 OS 367889 and you will have to cycle to that location to pick up the answer from the signing on car.....0
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Oh you cynical, cynical people.
But funny
I remember reading this sort of thread before either on this forum/C+ or veloriders and someone saying that the problem was that CTT themselves weren't organising the events, the organisers were a whole set of events secs of little clubs around the country, some of whom had computer access and some not.
Then there's the situation of competitors without computer access...
CTT couldn't impose a centralised event-entry system, there'd be an uproar, just wouldn't work.
I guess the situation could go like road running races though, in that clubs organise their own events and they're listed centrally (regionally) with UK Athletics in an effort to avoid date clashes, etc but are still the clubs' own responsibilities.
Various websites (Runners World, John Schofield/UK Results, Sportsoft, etc) list the events with links to the clubs' own sites, from where you can get details, etc.
Some clubs insist you print off and fill-in paper entry forms, others have on-line entry which they either manage themselves or more usually because of the difficulties of setting yourself up a credit card merchant account they use Runners World, John Schofield, etc website to take payment.0 -
I'm sure there's no harm in asking, but the CTT is not responsible for organising time trials in the UK. It doesn't promote a single event. Part of the difficulty in setting up online entry is that nobody enters events run by the CTT. You enter an event run by the Wobbly Wheelers and in all likelihood the finances for the event go through Joe Volunteer's (a Wobbly Wheelers club member) own personal bank account. Joe Volunteer pays for the village hall and pays out the prizes, buys the cakes etc..........vermooten wrote:I sent an email to the top banana at CTT to ask him to respond to some of the issues in this thread.
Now, how many Joe Volunteers are there each year and how does the central CTT online payment system link up with them? How does the online entry system get the centrally-paid entry fees to Joe Volunteer when Joe Volunteer possibly isn't even online? (And Joe Volunteer doesn't in any sense belong (as a member) to the CTT.)
Before you all start telling me that if someone isn't online they shouldn't be organising events, think about whether you're volunteering to organise an event in their place, because unless you are, it might be wise not to complain or criticise. Surely you don't think it would be better to have no event at all than one that requires you to get out your cheque book to enter?
Bear in mind too that the central CTT organisation, IIRC, has 1.5 paid employees. I wonder how many paid employees there are working (directly and on contract, not to mention paid marshals and helpers?) on all the fabulously easy to enter sportives and triathlons up and down the country?
I don't think there aren't hurdles and problems for time trialling in the UK to overcome, but it's very easy to make comparisons with other branches of cycle sport and simply be critical while having no idea how time trialling is run. One of the huge hindrances to change in the time trialling world is its long history - which, IMO, is both an asset and a problem. It's very easy to do things differently in a branch of cycle sport (eg. sportives) which is only 5 years old, but I'm not sure why a sport that has lasted and been enjoyed by many thousands of cyclists for several generations deserves the derision it gets in some quarters.
Ruth0 -
BC doesn't organise any races of it's own either - but plans are afoot to bring in on-line entry for road races (some clubs using it already I think). At the minute, road races are no easier to enter than TTs (apart from EOL events) - if anything they require slightly more forward planning as the closing date is usually 3 weeks prior.
I do think CTT could do more to encourage organisers to move with the times. Whether it would ever be possible to enter an open TT on the line (you would not be able to sort the field as normal which is supposed to prevent drafting) is another matter, although I'm sure there could be some way around this.
As for sportives being easy to enter..............well, fine if you know what you are doing in 6 months time when they start selling out, but it must be a nightmare to get a ride for anyone on weekend shifts - just a case of paying and praying you are able to get the time off I suppose.
BTW I have organised 25's in the past so I speak with a bit of background knowledge0 -
BeaconRuth wrote:Bear in mind too that the central CTT organisation, IIRC, has 1.5 paid employees. I wonder how many paid employees there are working (directly and on contract, not to mention paid marshals and helpers?) on all the fabulously easy to enter sportives and triathlons up and down the country?
Ruth
Hi Ruth.
The vast majority of Triathlons are organised by clubs - you may have only heard of the high profile ones that are professionally run.
Have a look at www.entrycentral.com which is a wee independent Scottish company offering online entry to triathlons, cycling events, running races etc. I even run my club's memberships through the site.
We still cater for paper entries - I just type the details from the entry forms I get in the post into the website, then all the data is in one place.
Have a look Ruth, and see if it would help you run your events (assuming you're not doing online entry already). Let me know what you think.
Cheers, Andy0 -
Thanks, that's interesting Andrew. TBH the only reason my club's event didn't have online entry this year was because I refused the offer of my club's excellent webmaster to set a system up. He did it (extremely effectively) for our Audax, but the CTT was planning to have online entry in place this season so I (unwisely) turned down his offer.
I'm sure this is the direction that individual clubs will go in due course but it does add cost because of precisely the professional input I eluded to in my quote . Personally I wouldn't mind paying significantly more per race but many in the TTing world are completely against moving away from the amateurish 'village-hall, run by volunteers and most importantly, CHEAP' feel to time trials. It seems pretty clear that many of the new influx of cyclists who are riding sportives wouldn't be put off by increased entry fees either. If there was a means of implementing change through vision and leadership then my vote would go for increasing entry fees and upping the professionalism of the whole sport. But there is no mechanism for leading the sport anywhere, let alone persuading people who have been involved (and many have devoted their lives to it) for 40-50 years to change. Part of me also asks why should we expect people to change? It's their sport as much as it is mine. If they like it as it is....................
A good example of what time trialling is like is that It costs a massive £9.00 to enter a national championship (including the British TT Champs, the winner of which is entitled to wear the British Champs jersey in UCI TTs!) and if you turn out to be the fastest rider on the day, it's quite possible there will be no podium to stand on, no flowers, no champagne and only a very dodgy PA system that nobody can hear to announce you as the winner. The promoting club will have done its best with the £6.00 per rider they are left with after the CTT levy has been paid............. but what hope have you got of making the sport look exciting and professional with that kind of budget?
Ruth0 -
I agree, BC doesn't organise races, but it has a massive infrastructure of professionals and it does have clear leadership which can bring about change. You've only got to compare the BC website with the CTT website to see the difference. The former must have a small army of professionals and paid journalists behind it whereas the latter has, as far as I know, one unpaid volunteer. You can criticise the CTT website all you like but it's a damn fine achievement and takes one heck of a lot of hits for an almost wholly amateur website.Bronzie wrote:BC doesn't organise any races of it's own either - but plans are afoot to bring in on-line entry for road races (some clubs using it already I think). At the minute, road races are no easier to enter than TTs (apart from EOL events) - if anything they require slightly more forward planning as the closing date is usually 3 weeks prior.
I completely agree. Traditionally the CTT, both at national and district level, is completely 'hands off' with respect to how events are run, so long as they comply with CTT rules. I'm not sure why the CTT needs to be so 'hands-off'............ it would certainly require a massive culture change for any advice beyond the most limited guidance notes to be given to organisers.I do think CTT could do more to encourage organisers to move with the times.
Good stuff, fair dos.BTW I have organised 25's in the past so I speak with a bit of background knowledge
Ruth0 -
Ruth
I am full of admiration for CTT - it achieves a heck of a lot given that most of it's structure is supported entirely by volunteers, but................
........... is it not finally time for CTT to wave a little white flag and agree to merge with BC with all the benefits of scale that would bring, or will the sport always have this "testers v roadies" mentality that dates back to the 1950's BLRC and all that bumpf? To me it's ancient history, about as relevant as WW2.
I suspect that most die-hard testers would staunchly fight any such merger, but I may be wrong on that.0 -
If there's going to be a revolution, it will have to be implemented by the organisers with input from the riders. I don't know what the majority feeling is here. Some are already doing it, e.g. the Border City Wheelers are promoting a hilly TT via https://www.entryweb.co.uk/ which they say will serve as a test for more CTT events. I'd definitely use it, as filling out entry forms and cheques is time consuming.
I'm sure all the course maps will be centrally available online sooner rather than later. A lot of promoting clubs have their own maps that they send out with the start sheets anyway, or have their own site with maps on it.
I actually like the CTT site. Its results database is very useful and is becoming more so as more organisers send in their results. BC's database is more complete, but they've had to work pretty hard to get it that way.
I think the CTT could benefit from a merger with BC (could happen, who knows?)
Also, most of the barriers are really only applicable to open events. Club TTs are straightforward to enter (even if you do get lost on your first time around the course) and give you a feel for the scene before trying out an open.Jeff Jones
Product manager, Sports0 -
All good points, but I can't see that having to use a cheque book is responsible for younger riders not wanting to take part. They did 20 years ago, they don't now. Having an "amateur" feel to it hasnt changed either, but maybe the courses have, since there are more duallies about than there were, and certainly a lot more traffic on a Sunday morning. The argument that it is boring is not the reason either, since it's always been boring to those who find it boring.
Fundamentally, are there fewer younger cyclists full stop, in which case you would expect to see fewer RRing also, or are they doing somehting else instead (such as RRing or MTBing)?0 -
Nope, just saying that this is one of several unnecessary obstacles.SteveR_100Milers wrote:All good points, but I can't see that having to use a cheque book is responsible for younger riders not wanting to take part.
FWIW our club TT is oversubscribed every time now, two years ago there were just 8 of us. Quite a few young 'uns and no-tails, too. Payment by cheque.0 -
I really don't think upping the prices is the way to go - I mean all you are paying for is to ride a stretch of road on your own with someone timing you - does anyone really care if they have to sign on in village hall. Having played plenty of Sunday League football I can tell you the average council changing rooms are far far worse than any village hall I've been to.
I wouldn't be for a merger with BC either - I'm not a TTer (only done one open in my life) but I don't think BC would have the interests of time trialling at heart and personally (without wanting to start a discussion on the issue) I wouldn't welcome the inevitable helmet compulsion that would come with it.
The obvious change is to publish a list of courses so people can look it up on the internet and know if they are riding on a dual carriageway or a country lane. I suppose on line entry would be good as most seem to find cheques a problem - isn't for me but if it puts some off then may as well change. Other than that it should be up to the organisers to put on the kind of event they want to put on.
it's a hard life if you don't weaken.0 -
Going back to my cycling youth, 35 years ago, I'd say that the majority of "Testers" then were old, 40+, with us youngsters who were just starting out.SteveR_100Milers wrote:younger riders not wanting to take part. They did 20 years ago, they don't now
Only the fast courses were getting full fields week in, week out.
As I pointed out, there's more scope now for younger riders to ride elsewhere, MTB, BMX and road, even track for those lucky enough to live near Manchester. And where are we seeing British World Champions? Yep, on the track.Remember that you are an Englishman and thus have won first prize in the lottery of life.0 -
When I was in my 20's in the early 90's there was a pretty even spread of ages oin most events in this part of the world. Maybe its a Welsh thing then... :roll: 0
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Enter on the line for TT's? Are you 'aving a laugh?
Do you guys really expect 150 riders to turn up and sign on to race and then having to wait for up to two hours? The entry formula works because it is a practical solution to orgainising a field of riders to set off at minute intervals. So you have to enter two weeks ahead of time and send a cheque. Aah Diddums. Cor obstacles or what?
Personally I've never had a problem with course codes and courses. There are these things called maps that you can buy and all you do is compare the corse details with it. It's quite easy when you know how.
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Turned up to a 10 mile TT last night and signed on an hour before the start time to find I was number 46. So an hour and 46 minutes before I was off. Total number of participants was 67.
Nobody seemed to mind waiting their turn and I was informed by the organiser that they can have over 90 starters some nights.
Would there have been so many if they had to pre register?? somehow I doubt it.
Great night some great times and i managed a 22.23 which I was more than happy with.0 -
Mike Willcox wrote:Enter on the line for TT's? Are you 'aving a laugh?
Do you guys really expect 150 riders to turn up and sign on to race and then having to wait for up to two hours? The entry formula works because it is a practical solution to orgainising a field of riders to set off at minute intervals. So you have to enter two weeks ahead of time and send a cheque. Aah Diddums. Cor obstacles or what?
Personally I've never had a problem with course codes and courses. There are these things called maps that you can buy and all you do is compare the corse details with it. It's quite easy when you know how.
Looking at the course descriptions on the website, they aren't that clear, most importantly they offer no immediate description of the course. If you're going to the effort of writing out instructions with coordinates, its not that much extra to write, sporting, lumpy, drag strip, etc at the top of the course.
As others have already said, cheques are not that much of an obstacle, neither is planning in two weeks ahead, neither is looking the route up on a map, neither is etc...
The point is combine a lot of these things and it seems like a lot of effort, when you could just time yourself over 10 miles. In a RR people know that the course is going to be relatively safe, because they are protected by marshals, and in a group with 79 other cyclists.
Quite frankly, when you consider the time you have to get up on a sunday morning to facilitate safe riding on a drag strip DC TT course its a surprise that anyone would do it. :!:You live and learn. At any rate, you live0 -
Jez mon wrote:
Looking at the course descriptions on the website, they aren't that clear, most importantly they offer no immediate description of the course. If you're going to the effort of writing out instructions with coordinates, its not that much extra to write, sporting, lumpy, drag strip, etc at the top of the course.
As others have already said, cheques are not that much of an obstacle, neither is planning in two weeks ahead, neither is looking the route up on a map, neither is etc...
The point is combine a lot of these things and it seems like a lot of effort, when you could just time yourself over 10 miles. In a RR people know that the course is going to be relatively safe, because they are protected by marshals, and in a group with 79 other cyclists.
Quite frankly, when you consider the time you have to get up on a sunday morning to facilitate safe riding on a drag strip DC TT course its a surprise that anyone would do it. :!: Who from? Outlaws?
Nothing changes. The same things were being said 30 years ago. I gave up the sport because I got fed up with the early starts and the travelling.
Now I'm back having another go but with a motivation other than winning. Without the TT targets for improvement I wouldn't be bothering so it certainly keeps me in the sport.0 -
I meant protect from traffic, RRing marshals being happy to "recommend" that oncoming traffic stops for a bunch of 80 cyclists. In TTs marshals are there more to direct the riders, this makes a TT seem riskier than a RR in many peoples eyes.
However, as this years Giro shows, RRing is not really that safe at all.You live and learn. At any rate, you live0 -
Road racing is way more dangerous, there are far more accidents because of rider crashes than there are cars hitting TT riders. If you crash into another rider on a TT then you really do have a problem!0
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But if another cyclist knocks you off, the combined speed is not that much, you are unlucky if its a few broken bones. if a car knocks you off, then you are lucky to just have broken bones.You live and learn. At any rate, you live0
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Ignoring deaths or serious injury on training rides, then compare stats of accidents on RR's compared to TT's. I'd guess that RR is significantly more "dangerous" in terms of the number of accidents that required medical attention/hospital treatment. There is a reason why BC make helmets compulsory when road racing.0
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I accept that RRs have many more accidents than TTs, but I'd rather to shatter my collarbone in a RR than end up under the wheels of a car in a TT. Riding a bike on a dual carriageway is not a good idea, TTs could be made far safer than they are, and could be held at more sociable times, if quieter roads were used.You live and learn. At any rate, you live0
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I can't find any obvious stats on google after 15 mins or so of searching about the comparative serious injury ratios between organised TT's and road racing. There is plenty of stuff about serious injuries from not wearing a helmet though....
Thought this was interesting, if perhaps out of date...0 -
So bicycling is eight times more dangerous than "Cosmic Radiation from transcontinental flights"? At least it's safer than "Living".SteveR_100Milers wrote:Thought this was interesting, if perhaps out of date...Jeff Jones
Product manager, Sports0 -
As with most things in life, the facts/truth is irrelevant. It's the perception that matters, and as a responsible parent, I would not be happy to let my son ride a TT up and down the A1 at 6am on a Sunday morning (he's 12½ so is able to ride open events).SteveR_100Milers wrote:I can't find any obvious stats on google after 15 mins or so of searching about the comparative serious injury ratios between organised TT's and road racing.
I wouldn't let him ride a RR on open roads either, but a closed circuit race or TT on quiet lanes would be fine in my eyes.0 -
Off topic, but - Ruth 5th place in the nationals today! Nice one.
Cheers, Andy0
