The slow demise of (amateur) Testing
SteveR_100Milers
Posts: 5,987
Debating this in the WCA and wondering how it can be reversed. Last weekends champs 25 field was nearly all vets. 20 years ago it was a very different picture, with a range of ages participating. It seems to me that one major reason might be that the investment required in kit means that you are forced to choose between either RRing or testing. In the good ole days ( 
) you simply turned up on the bike you rode RR's, club runs, crits whatever, and had a blast.
Now it costs you at least a grand to compete on a level playing field (and any tester will tell you of the benefits of a good aero TT bike versus hammering away on the drops), and sudedenly your £2k carbon work of art road bike is practically useless after your first newbie season.
Yesterday, whilst marshalling our clubs annual 2 day road race (by the OT I know but Dai how did you do?) I noticed that most of the (local welsh) names were those never seen at local TT's, bar a couple or so. Only the recognisable testers had TT bikes, everyone else road bikes in the team time trial. It occures to me that there has at least in south wales become two separate groups of racers, much more so than I seem to recall from 15-20 years ago years ago. So the question is how do you get younger riders interesting in TT ing when maybe the "entry" cost forces an unhelpful and maybe unnecessary decision?
) you simply turned up on the bike you rode RR's, club runs, crits whatever, and had a blast.Now it costs you at least a grand to compete on a level playing field (and any tester will tell you of the benefits of a good aero TT bike versus hammering away on the drops), and sudedenly your £2k carbon work of art road bike is practically useless after your first newbie season.
Yesterday, whilst marshalling our clubs annual 2 day road race (by the OT I know but Dai how did you do?) I noticed that most of the (local welsh) names were those never seen at local TT's, bar a couple or so. Only the recognisable testers had TT bikes, everyone else road bikes in the team time trial. It occures to me that there has at least in south wales become two separate groups of racers, much more so than I seem to recall from 15-20 years ago years ago. So the question is how do you get younger riders interesting in TT ing when maybe the "entry" cost forces an unhelpful and maybe unnecessary decision?
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Comments
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..."you" try to convince people it is not elitist and confined to "known" riders, which is difficult.0
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Time trialling is booming. In triathlon. Any club that targets triathletes to get involved can get more entrants but it's not helped by awkward rules. In this day of the internet, to enter a time trial you still need a chequebook, a handbook, a paper form and an envelope and stamp.
So I'd make the events a lot easier to ride. The only time someone uses their chequebook today is to enter a time trial. You have a complicated form with many lines to enter, which has to be sent off weeks in advance. Worse, the details of races aren't available on the internet, you have to buy the handbook, it's as if the organisers are shy and don't want the entries!
OK, all this isn't rocket science but it's just a barrier to some and if it's not easy to change, surely some boffin can design an entry website to manage a database of PB times and more so you can enter online, it's quite possible. I'd also take entries on the line, I know it's not what the handicappers want but surely making races more accessible matters more than the start order? Or why not offer a seperate prize list to riders on road bikes, or even ban TT machines in the event?0 -
Both Triathlon and Sportives have cottoned on to the power of the internet pretty quickly and are booming because of it. They are easy to enter, easy to find, results are available quickly online etc etc. Time trialling could easily take advantage of this too, but seems to be consciously not doing so.
Compare how easy it is to turn up and do a triathlon or sportive no matter what level of training or equipment you have and compare that to a TT. There's your problem.0 -
I agree with all of that - IMO its the divisive nature of the expense of the specialised kit which generates a subliminal snobbery which puts people off. The idea of just turning up and riding is attractive, but people still ride road races and you still have to go through the process of sorting out a license.
I was also thinking about the idea of a "sporting" TT where no TT bikes are allowed, just road bikes only no tri bars as an alternative to a hilly "sporting" event. Maybe there is room between a sportive and a flat race track TT......0 -
It's just plain boring!
Add that to the idea of getting up at some god-foresaken hour, to ride up and down a chunk of duel carriageway and you get an idea of why younger riders aren't interested.
The cost of the bike, I'd suggest, doesn't factor in greatly, how much for a good road bike, how many have a Mountain Bike too? What's wrong with second-hand bikes?
If someone's dead set on time trialling, they'll do it.
The TT is a hang over from the early days of cycling, when the RTTC had these fears about cycle racing being banned.
Even going back 35 years, when I started cycling, a lot of "Testers" were pretty geriatric, but your options were TT or Road, Cyclo-cross for winter and, if you were lucky to be near a track (Mansfield lad myself, so Harvey Haddon wasn't far away and sometimes we hit the big time and got a carful to go to Saffron Lane!).
No glamour of televised racing, bar the odd Classic offering on ITV.
Along came MTBs and that scooped off a lot of younger riders, BMX ditto?
Also, your road races had fields of just 40, maybe 60 for the likes of the Lincoln Grand Prix. Last week, there were what, 150+ entrants there?
Who'd not rather race 88 miles around Lincoln, start at 11 am, get cheered up a cobbled climb that immitates a Belgian 'Berg, rather than grind along a length of dual carriageway, with a start time of 7.05am?
I time trialled, when I couldn't get a start at a Road Race, or it was the Club 25, Club 10 etc.
The entry factor might be a reason too, the old RTTC "Let's not get seen" mentality still holds, by the sound of it. Buy the Handbook (Revenue for the RTTC), find the old course codes, A25/4, O2, etc that are near you. Are we still having to get changed in the back of the car, parked on the verges outside that big old house in Blyth?
Elitist? Cobblers!
Time Trialling is an anachronism, past it's sell-by date long ago.Remember that you are an Englishman and thus have won first prize in the lottery of life.0 -
OffTheBackAdam wrote:It's just plain boring!
Time Trialling is an anachronism, past it's sell-by date long ago.
I believe you may have hit the nail on the head.Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.0 -
Whilst I agree with most of the points against time trialling mentioned above i think that TTing will grow in the UK. Why?
Well there is the triathlon effect. If TTs are easeir to enter they will become like 10km runs with lots of amateur participation to see what they can do.
Also since road races are starting to get banned there might be gaps appearing in the calendar for 'roadies'.
Another point is that the standard of riding in road races seems to be steadily declining, TTing is a good way to have a 'race' without fear of getting taken out by some cretin that thinks scarring you for life is a good trade off for a non-points place in a local chipper :roll: Seriously - I think that is why TT has an older crowd - you can try to beat your PB, and all the improvement is down to you, not the whims of a bunch race. The nice kit your bought isn't going to get ripped to shreds in a crash. It is the people who have families and actually want to see them again after a 'race'.
If RTTC make entry easier i reckon the sport will grow. The trouble is that it will then suffer due to increased presence on the road, and attract lots of negative publicity.
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Older entries doesn't necessarily mean a sport is dying out either - a lot of riders come into cycling in their 30s and 40s now - I reckon it's a minority that come into the sport as juniors and ride all the way through to the veteran ranks - the health of the sport in terms of numbers doesn't really depend on getting youth involved.
As far as entries for TTs go as I understand things open event entries are down but evening club events are booming - that's what our TT sec reports anyway and apparently why the levy on club events has gone up - because they need the cash with declining open entries.
it's a hard life if you don't weaken.0 -
It think the question CTT have to ask themselves is 'are we doing everything we can to make our events easy to enter and attractive to all ages and both sexes?'. The other alternative is that they aren't interested in the question.
Given the success of Tri and Sportives (nowhere to massive in 5 years for the later) there is obviously demand. Clearly there is, in the case of TTs, a problem with the supply and supplier. An innovative organiser could capitalise on this outside of the CTT. Beacon Ruth has promoted an event on this forum in the past which sounds nearer what would attract more people to TTing I seem to recall.0 -
A few things:
1) I agree it could be more accessible to cyclists who can't afford all the kit by having standard road bike only categories. But that's up to the event organisers.
2) Plenty of events are getting full fields. Problem is that most are limited to 120 riders, although there are events where they run consecutive races, getting up to about 270 riders. Comparable to road races, but there seem to be a lot more TTs on. They get nothing like the numbers of a sportive though, and I can't see this changing.
3) The CTT were looking into an online entry system for this year, but I believe their site got hacked and the project got put on hold. They are trying to get something up for next year, which would be a good start. The only reason I got a cheque book was so that I could enter TTs!
3) I've really enjoyed time trialling since I got into it late last year. I've mostly done sporting courses, which are quite challenging, but I have done a couple of dual carriageway 10s which are fun in their own right because they're quite quick. For me, the attraction of time trialling is that you can go very fast purely under your own power, doing speeds that you couldn't attain in a sportive or even in a road race.
(There's a 20 page thread on this topic here: http://www.timetriallingforum.co.uk/ind ... opic=19643 and links to course maps here: http://www.timetriallingforum.co.uk/ind ... opic=18586)Jeff Jones
Product manager, Sports0 -
can vouch for that, we have a full field for our club 10 most weeks, boosted by Triathletes.Kléber wrote:Time trialling is booming. In triathlon. Any club that targets triathletes to get involved can get more entrants0 -
I reckon it could work but they have to make it accessible.
I come from a running background and view doing a 10 TT as similar to running a 5K or 10K, a 25 TT equivalent to a Half Marathon, far more so than a RR is
I'm a reasonable midfield club runner, out to get a decent time.
I'm never going to challenge for the overall victory, I'm out to hit my PB
I've done a few club TT's on this basis - I'm nowhere near being competetive with the quick guys, but that doesn't matter because I'm aiming at my own time targets.
I don't want a head-to-head race, the prospect of a mad-dash-and-crash Cat4 race doesn't appeal at all.
I reckon sportives are succeeding because they're accessible to all and you can judge your performance by looking in the results to see you 'came 347th of 712' or whatever, or you can do the event again next year and try do a quicker time, or to break 7 hours, get a gold or silver, etc.
There are some cycling clubs though who don't want to be accessible, want to remain in a 1950's or 1970's timewarp, only for 'their sort of people'...0 -
I think the issue is that the governing body, the CTT, doesn't have the role of organising events. I'm fairly sure the national exec committee would say it's not their role to make events attractive, exciting, interesting - that's up to the clubs who organise events. So the appeal, imagination, promotion, marketing of an event is down to the ability/time/interest of hard working volunteers in clubs who give up their own time for the love of the sport and take on a huge responsibility in their spare time. Compare and contrast with professional organisers who run triathlons and sportives, and, while you're at it, compare the cost of taking part in an event.skavanagh.bikeradar wrote:It think the question CTT have to ask themselves is 'are we doing everything we can to make our events easy to enter and attractive to all ages and both sexes?'. The other alternative is that they aren't interested in the question.
I completely agree with that. The trouble is, the CTT doesn't see itself as the supplier. Each club is the supplier of one or two events a year - how do you bring about changes of thinking with about a thousand autonomous suppliers? How do you apply vision and imagination with no central organisation?Given the success of Tri and Sportives (nowhere to massive in 5 years for the later) there is obviously demand. Clearly there is, in the case of TTs, a problem with the supply and supplier.
Indeed, we had a hugely successful and oversubscribed 39 mile hilly TT in April. About a quarter of the riders were new to time trialling and almost half the riders chose to compete in the 'roadman' category on ordinary road bikes, which perhaps answers Steve's opening question for this thread. We've quadrupled the entry for this event in two years.An innovative organiser could capitalise on this outside of the CTT. Beacon Ruth has promoted an event on this forum in the past which sounds nearer what would attract more people to TTing I seem to recall.
Incidentally, the Women's TT Series I'm organising has attracted almost 40 women to take part in the first two events - more than I've seen at any event in 10 years of time trialling (excluding national championships).
I've no doubt the demand is there.
Ruth0 -
Consider the parallel with audaxes and sportives, which are largely the same thing.There are loads of 200km audaxes every weekend, some of which get just 9 riders... yet sportives in the same regions at the same times of year are oversubscribed several times over, and they charge up to ten times more to enter. Why? Possibly becauseBeaconRuth wrote:How do you apply vision and imagination with no central organisation?
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I've no doubt the demand is there.
(a) it's easier to enter a sportive (online) than an audax (cheques, hand-written forms, send 2 x SAE of the right size or else)
(b) sportives don't come with a handbook that has a hundred pages of rules and regulations
(c) audaxes are full of old people with bellies* who probably also enjoy caravanning, whereas sportives get eager younger sportsmen and women on good bikes and highly desirable wheels.
It probably boils down to overall value - after a sportive you get a t-shirt, you get your times shown on a website, pictures of yourself in action for a modest price etc, and you get to mix it with faster riders.
Likewise TTs - hard to enter, full of tradition and rules, a bit unwelcoming, needs fresh blood to give it a shake. Triathlon seems to be helping this.
The CTT appears to be an unbelievably staid organisation that will be replaced by entrepreneurs if they don't change. One of my IT-literate club-mates offered to do a programme (for free!) for the CTT which shows the routes using Google Maps, but they turned down the request, no reason given AFAIK, but we can guess.
(*I've done several audaxes in 2008 and enjoyed them all)0 -
Just to add a couple of points:
1. TT was and always will be utterly boring to some people, but it never seemed to be particularly age related, certainly not in S Wales. There are plenty of anecdotes amongst these very forums of first time sportive riders who have dipped their toes into "proper" racing and caught the bug. It was always the easy introduction to RRing by being safer and less "win or lose" than full on RRing for a beginner.
2. Yes events are full, many have overflows, but thst wasn't the point. There are a far greater proportion of vets riding TT's than there were 15 or so years ago when I first started doing them (at the age of 25). The question is why did my age group of 20 soemthings all want to both TT AND RR, whereas now it seems no one under the age of 30 wants to do it. Is it because no one under the age of 30 wants to race?
Personally as an organiser, I am seriously considering promoting an alternative "sporting" TT and make it road bike only, and away from (though not necesarily completely) dual carriageways. Now if only the rules would allow for 30 second start intervals, drafting and bunch sprinting, it mght up the excitement stakes a little....0 -
I still think a lot of the problem comes down to the UK obsession with drag-strip courses.
Who in their right mind would let their 12-year-old kid ride up and down the A1, even at 6am on a Sunday morning?
This is demonstrated to me by 2 different local evening 10's:
- club A uses the local bypass, flat as a pancake and very quick, but not much fun with lorries trying to get past you - they get 20-25 riders max
- club B uses a sporting course on country lanes with hardly any traffic - their events form a series through the summer with points awarded for your finishing position - the other week they had over 60 people wanting to ride the first event including a couple of under 16's (and a whole bunch of triathletes)
I don't think this will change while the CTT with it's ancient committee membership is in charge - maybe BC should seize the initiative and promote organisation of a lot more sporting TTs under it's rules carrying BC points the same as RRs.0 -
OffTheBackAdam wrote:It's just plain boring!
Add that to the idea of getting up at some god-foresaken hour, to ride up and down a chunk of duel carriageway and you get an idea of why younger riders aren't interested.
Who'd not rather race 88 miles around Lincoln, start at 11 am, get cheered up a cobbled climb that immitates a Belgian 'Berg, rather than grind along a length of dual carriageway, with a start time of 7.05am?
A picture is worth a thousand words, as they say...
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Hi there.
I've been through this debate several times, on a few different forums, notably timetriallingforum.co.uk
I am convinced that the whole problem is marketing. I've came at time trialling from a triathlon background, and was staggered to find how difficult it was to enter an event. The whole sending off cheque thing has been covered above, but there's also the anachronistic naming of courses which makes it very difficult for an outsider to find out what events are happening where.
As for actively promoting an event? I'm organising a triathlon in two weeks for 600 people. The field will comprise 150 kids, 200 women and 250 guys. This is a local (not for profit) event, not a professionally organised one as hinted at above. How do we get the numbers? And spread across the ages/sexes?
- Marketing. Flyers in local gyms and round the local running, swimming and cycling clubs.
- Youth Development. We go into local schools and give talks, demonstrations and even organise mini-events in the school playgrounds.
- Ease of Entry. Online credit card entry, we've been doing this for about 6 years now. Starting with a linux server sitting under my desk, before moving onto a professional service.
- Spirit of the event. For 90% of the field it's all about taking part, not the result. This is the same reason that sportives have flourished.
From experience when I talk to testers about this they usually fail to see the problems. The system works for them, they know how to enter events and where they happen. They know that a long 22 on one course is worth a mid 21 on another. Unless the wind has changed, and they remember when the road was last resurfaced. Oh and Thursday nights are always good for 'float' nights when there's extra traffic for late night shopping...
Taking a step back and considering the sport from an outsider's perspective will go a long way.
Now, the CTT. Not relevent up here in Scotland as the SCU handle all bike racing, Road Racing, MTB, cross, track, TT everything. This makes a lot of sense, as you don't end up with clubs split by affiliation. More riders tend to cross over, and the guy who won the Scottish 10 yesterday is the same guy who's winning road races.
This also means we don't need to follow a different set of rules, as the SCU pretty much follow the UCI rulebook. Events are listed on the BC website, usually with a googlemap link. Also more and more events are being listed online - both the TTs I've done this year have been online entries. This is due to public pressure at agm's and forums like braveheart.
So things are moving ahead up here.
Personally the CTT needs to move with the times or merge in with BC and let them handle things. Saying that will upset the vast majority of established testers though - but who's interests do they have at heart?
Lastly, let's get rid of the culture of chasing fast times on DC courses. This only seems to exist in this country, and doesn't do the sport any favours.
Cheers, Andy0 -
Bronzie wrote:I still think a lot of the problem comes down to the UK obsession with drag-strip courses.
This is demonstrated to me by 2 different local evening 10's:
- club A uses the local bypass, flat as a pancake and very quick, but not much fun with lorries trying to get past you - they get 20-25 riders max
- club B uses a sporting course on country lanes with hardly any traffic - their events form a series through the summer with points awarded for your finishing position - the other week they had over 60 people wanting to ride the first event including a couple of under 16's (and a whole bunch of triathletes)
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Opposite here - we run ours on sporting courses and average around 15-16 riders - other local club uses dual carriageway and gets more - can't tell you exactly how many more as i've never done them but I'm told they get more anyway - including local triathletes etc - because people like to chase a fast time.
it's a hard life if you don't weaken.0 -
Do yours insist on CTT or affiliated club membership to ride ? Just wondered as 60 is impressive - have they done anything specific to build up the numbers ?
it's a hard life if you don't weaken.0 -
Yes I think they (Beds Road Club) ask riders to join their club if they ride more than once - not sure how they promote (as I'm sure good promotion plays a large part) - pretty sure there is a good relationship with the local tri club (Bedford Tractors) so maybe that explains it.
My central point remains though that parents will not let their kids ride up and down a bypass, but on country lanes it's not such an issue. If we want more kids in the sport, a move away from dual carriageways is a must.0 -
I hear what you are saying - I'm not a time triallist myself just do a few club events - but I know since our club switched our promotions to sporting courses entries have been down - to the extent I think we are maybe only promoting one open rather than two this year.
it's a hard life if you don't weaken.0 -
I'm interested in having a go at TT's, and am sub 30 (and female!!!!).
I know the local clubs do run evening TTs and I've heard that Newport Phoenix do evening TTs on the A48 chepstow road at 6pm (don't think I can make this on a weekday). Can anybody on here point me in the direction of evening/weekend TTs near to Caerphilly? I'd quite like to have go at a 10, with a friendly bunch where I won't be completely embarassed by my time or by the fact I don't have a super fantastic TT bike.0 -
Personally TTing just doesn't seem to grab me. It's not the equipment, its the nature of the event. As to the relative ease of entering TTs and RRs, both can be a right pain. If you want to race on the open road then its required to plan your life out through a BCF handbook.
However, in reality, i do not think filling in an entrance form and sending it through the post is that difficult, it requires little effort, as opposed to actually training for the event.
As for TTing's (seeming) unpopularity, i think its a number of things.
1 it seems to give off every impression of trying not to welcome newcomers; the anti social times, the nonsensical course names all conspire to make it appear to be a closed world
2, the courses they use are hardly appealing. I know drag strip courses are conductive for fast times, but many of them can be dangerous
3, I think for some cost of equipment does put some off sadly what many don't realize, is that the rider position is the main cause of drag. Sure to be competitive at a top level its important to have a top level bike, but a cheep second hand road bike with clip ons could easily put a rider into a good position to record good times.You live and learn. At any rate, you live0 -
speckybecky wrote:I know the local clubs do run evening TTs and I've heard that Newport Phoenix do evening TTs on the A48 chepstow road at 6pm (don't think I can make this on a weekday). Can anybody on here point me in the direction of evening/weekend TTs near to Caerphilly? I'd quite like to have go at a 10, with a friendly bunch where I won't be completely embarassed by my time or by the fact I don't have a super fantastic TT bike.
Off the top of my head:-
Pontypool RCC - 7pm Tuesdays - Llancayo (outside Usk)
Merthyr CC - Wednesdays - Resolven (R10/22)
Abertillery Wheelers - 7pm Thursdays - Old Furnace (Old Hafodyrynys to Pontypool Road)
Cwmcarn Paragon - 7m Thursdays - Risca
Port Talbot Wheelers - 7pm Thursdays - Resolven (R10/22)
Abergavenny RCC - 7pm Thursdays - Abergavenny to Raglan (R10/17)0 -
I've raced in many places and now work in London. A couple of years ago I felt like racing again and wanted to try a TT. I thought the hard part would be riding the darn thing but it was the entry process.
If for some stupid reason I made a drunken bet to a friend to invent a bike race that is hard to enter, a Brit TT would be my model. There are so many obstacles to riding it. You need to belong to a club, you need to use a check (I thought they'd been scrapped in Britain) and so on.
Worse, when you ride it's like you're not meant to be there. The route uses a secret code, the start line is two men and a clip board and the finish line, well there was no line, just a parked car with some guy sat inside. This is stealthy! I know the sport has a clandestine past but we are in 2008 now.
I won't rant no more, just want to make the point that the simplest type of race is complex to enter. Time trialling is a great discipline. No need for a TT bike, no need to keep up with the Cat 4 races, no need for anything: just you against time, a great concept, it should be more open to all.0 -
MartinL wrote:speckybecky wrote:I know the local clubs do run evening TTs and I've heard that Newport Phoenix do evening TTs on the A48 chepstow road at 6pm (don't think I can make this on a weekday). Can anybody on here point me in the direction of evening/weekend TTs near to Caerphilly? I'd quite like to have go at a 10, with a friendly bunch where I won't be completely embarassed by my time or by the fact I don't have a super fantastic TT bike.
Off the top of my head:-
Pontypool RCC - 7pm Tuesdays - Llancayo (outside Usk)
Merthyr CC - Wednesdays - Resolven (R10/22)
Abertillery Wheelers - 7pm Thursdays - Old Furnace (Old Hafodyrynys to Pontypool Road)
Cwmcarn Paragon - 7m Thursdays - Risca
Port Talbot Wheelers - 7pm Thursdays - Resolven (R10/22)
Abergavenny RCC - 7pm Thursdays - Abergavenny to Raglan (R10/17)
I'm close to Caerphilly, and sadly there are none that I can think of. I rie the Ponty 10 on a Tuesday, and will ride a few of the Cardiff Combine on the A48 from St Nicholas on a Wed evening. Whate we need are enough riders in the area to form a CCBC CC 0 -
Thanks MartinL and Stever_100milers, I might be able to make the Cwm Carn Paragon ones but the others are a bit too far for me to get to on a weekday after work!
It would be nice if there was a club nearer to Caerphilly! I work in Cardiff so don't like the idea of heading back into CF on the weekend if I can help it (feels like another workday!). And evening rides out of Cardiff are a no-goer because my road bike wouldn't last 5 mins parked up outside of work (tried that!), and I'd really struggle on my commuting bike, and then I'd have a 9 mile ride back through the hilly Rudry lanes :?0 -
You could try posting on the WCA guestbook
IIRC every club that holds a TT has to register it with Robin Field (Bloater) at the start of the season, so he'd know what's on and where.0 -
That's a really useful website - thanks!
I've sent an e-mail to Cwm Carn Paragon, hopefully they will get back to me!0
