Accident advice? - Long story warning

lardboy

Now, this is quite a long story, so please bear with me.

Time: Bank Holiday Monday, about 2.30
Place: Vauxhall, heading NE up South Lambeth Road at traffic lights south of the railway: Gmap here

Situation: 3 lanes of traffic, with a filter lane on the left hand side, and a ASL box infront of all 3 lanes. The junction is a bit of a nightmare, with all 3 lanes turning left and 4 lanes of traffic coming from the right and cycle lanes running all over the place. Not a place I'd ridden through before, but having lived there a few years ago, I was kind of confident I knew my way around, at least enough to find my way through the junctions.

I was riding with my flatmate, who was behind me at the time, and who had the accident. I pull up the filter lane and into the ASL box and my flatmate follows me. I see that the light is red and that there is a cycle path on the right that we can use to get us out of the way of the hideous junctions that had obviously changed since I was last there. I decide to head across the lanes of traffic, and as the light in front of us is red, just ride across. My friend follows me across, but connects with the car (BMW 1 series) in the middle lane, as he had pulled out when she was riding across, the front of the cars. I can't tell you too much as this was all happening behind me, so I can't guarantee that the traffic light was still red.

I look behind me and see that she's stopped by the car, and that the driver is calling her a "f*****g c**t", and sounding his horn. The driver is big guy, over 6 foot and obviously angry. I did not know that they had made contact, so shouted to my friend to get out of there, as he was getting out of his car and screaming abuse. I thought that he had been trying to jump the lights a bit and had been cut up by my friend and had got upset at what had happened. The last thing I needed was for my flatmate to get a kicking, so I told her to just get out of there. She follows me and we head towards the bridge away from where the cars are heading.

The car driver pulls over to the right of the area under the bridge and runs shouting after my friend. He grabs her by the back of her clothes, pulling her off the bike and then throws the bike down onto the ground. By the time I got back to her, there was thankfully a bunch of people in front of him trying to calm him down, and protect her at the same time. Someone in the crowd told me that the the police were on their way. The driver was screaming at everyone about his car and about my flatmate who had damaged it. there's lots of name calling and threatening behaviour, but apart from a few hands on arms, ("Don't you f*****g touch me, b**ch!") no physical contact. The damage consists of a small dent on the under side of the bumper, that you have to bend down to identify. A dent maybe a couple of inches long, It's minor cosmetic damage, that is noticeable from a couple of metres, if you know what you're looking for.

The police arrive and separate them. They exchange names and contact numbers, not addresses. Being upset and wanting this all to be over, my flatmate tells the police that it's her fault (something the policeman immediately advises against) and says that she's willing to make good on the damage, such as it is. The driver says he won't be able to get an estimate until Thursday. My flatmate absolutely refuses to report the driver for his behaviour to her, again not wanting to exacerbate the situation. The police call in the incident, give us a reference number and wait for him to leave.

Yesterday the driver texted to let us know that the repair bill is £1,400, and he wants the whole amount, and is willing to show invoices etc. My flatmate absolutely does not have £1,400, which is quite frankly a ridiculous sum of money for a small dent, and is probably the total cost of replacing the bumper, rather than repairing it. We have responded to say that £1,400 is too high, and his response is that he only wants this done by a full BMW dealer, and that is the price. I know BMWs are expensive, but surely that's taking the p*ss? She can probably scrape together a couple of hundred quid, but more than that will be impossible in the short term.

Now there's a litany of mistakes that were made (the original manoeuvre, riding away from the accident, admitting responsibility to the police, not reporting his assault etc) but we can't change those things. I can't guarantee that he didn't have a green light, so there's a chance that she'd get hit for the full £1,400 plus legal costs if his insurers decided to go to court. I'd imagine that there's CCTV footage of the incident as the whole area round there is probably covered, so we might get away with it completely, or it could damn us absolutely.

Anyone have any advice? We're a bit stuck here at the moment to know what to do.

P.S. The one positive thing to come from this is that I've now signed up to CTC as I don't fancy being in a similar situation without insurance.

robmanic1

Sounds to me, although it's difficult to tell from the description, and I'm sure somebody will correct me, that the driver collided with your friend and not the other way around. Surely if this is the case he is a fault (apart from sounding like your typical BMW driver), and if anything, should be held acountable for damage caused to her self/bike. She just chose the wrong guy to collide with by the sounds, she must have had grounds for a counter-claim if he laid hands on her and threatened her though, especially in front of witnesses. Did you manage to get their details?

cjw

As above. I would also advise returning to the police and charging assault... doesn't really matter what was said at the time too much... she was clealy frightened and disorientated.

graeme_s-2

Sounds like an awful situation, and I don't really have any advice. Might be worth ringing the CTC now that you're a member just to get some advice from them.

To anyone else reading this, who doesn't have 3rd party insurance, please join the CTC or British Cycling. This is the sort of incident that could very easily happen to any of us, and if it happens to you, you'll want the reassurance of 3rd party insurance.

dirk_van_gently

DO NOT give any money.
The prat should have been arrested for assault.
If no addresses were exchanged, tell him to go take a hike.

lardboy

No details for witnesses, I'm afraid. I didn't see the assault, either.

He does not have our address, we refused to give it on safety grounds. He has my flatmate's name and her mobile number. The mobile isn't even in her name, it's in mine as she can't pass the credit check for a monthly contract. This gives you an indication of how unrealistic £1,400 is as an amount to demand.

spen666

Report him to the police for extortion

dang65

Dump the mobile. If you ever happen to cross paths with this character again then just say that you've never seen him before in your life, perhaps putting on a foreign accent and saying that you've only just arrived in the country.

robmanic1

Did she give her details to the police? If not, I'd forget it, he obviously wasn't a reasonable type and deserves to be shafted.

always_tyred

Were you still in the bike box when the collision ocurred? Was the direction you were cycling a designated bike route? Is it possible that you could argue that you were crossing from the left of the bike box to the right hand side because you needed to be in that lane to get through the junction, or was is clear that you were behaving as a pedestrian?

I'd say he crossed a stop line. You can truthfully say you believe it was on red. Even if it was not, I believe that the highway code states that even on green, a driver must wait until a junction has cleared. This, of course, prevents drivers from ploughing through pedestrians with a right of priority.

In addition, since the police were there, I think they probably have some names and addresses. Your friend needs, with the police reference number that you should have, to file a complaint for assault against the driver.

The driver committed assault the second he touched your friend's clothing. You are a witness, which should count for something if you are willing to go through the process with her.

I believe that being physically afraid and in shock from being wrestled from the bike is a reasonable argument against being held to the promise to pay the damages. Ditto leaving the scene.

In your friend's position, I would gauge the situation with the police (they may have been crap and not recorded names, or be prejudiced and not be inclined to take wrestling a female cyclist off her bike too seriously). Once you have a sense of the likelihood of the police doing anything, put it in writing, cc it to the driver.

Good luck.

lardboy

dang65 wrote:

Dump the mobile. If you ever happen to cross paths with this character again then just say that you've never seen him before in your life, perhaps putting on a foreign accent and saying that you've only just arrived in the country.

I take it only the first part is a serious suggestion. I guess we could block his number citing harassment, as I believe the phone companies will do that, but we might need to contact the police to get it done.

She did not give her details to the police. The only information out there is her name and mobile number,and only the driver has those.

We're not really looking for a way out, we'd rather do the right thing overall (karma and all that), if it was her fault (well indirectly mine really, as I did the first stupid manoeuvre, which might have riled him), but we're not willing to be extorted.

lardboy

Always Tyred wrote:

Were you still in the bike box when the collision ocurred? Was the direction you were cycling a designated bike route? Is it possible that you could argue that you were crossing from the left of the bike box to the right hand side because you needed to be in that lane to get through the junction, or was is clear that you were behaving as a pedestrian?

I'd say he crossed a stop line. You can truthfully say you believe it was on red. Even if it was not, I believe that the highway code states that even on green, a driver must wait until a junction has cleared. This, of course, prevents drivers from ploughing through pedestrians with a right of priority.

In addition, since the police were there, I think they probably have some names and addresses. Your friend needs, with the police reference number that you should have, to file a complaint for assault against the driver.

The driver committed assault the second he touched your friend's clothing. You are a witness, which should count for something if you are willing to go through the process with her.

I believe that being physically afraid and in shock from being wrestled from the bike is a reasonable argument against being held to the promise to pay the damages. Ditto leaving the scene.

In your friend's position, I would gauge the situation with the police (they may have been crap and not recorded names, or be prejudiced and not be inclined to take wrestling a female cyclist off her bike too seriously). Once you have a sense of the likelihood of the police doing anything, put it in writing, cc it to the driver.

Good luck.

The collision occurred inside the bike box or on the ped crossing right after it. There is a cycle route that uses the ped crossing as part of it, and it was to the right hand side of the ped crossing that we were heading.

The traffic light was definitely on red when I crossed the box, I'm not that dangerous a rider. My flatmate believes that the ped crossing was still green when she started moving.

Thanks for all the advice. I'm going to direct my friend here to see what she thinks. I've already told her not to contact the driver again until we've spoken more.

dirk_van_gently

I really can't see how you can talk of "doing the right thing" when the driver attacked your friend.

Responsibilty seems to have fallen to both parties for the accident, however there is no excuse for an assault, and I am surprised the Police were such numpties, ok maybe I'm not.

el_presidente

lardboy wrote:

dang65 wrote:

Dump the mobile. If you ever happen to cross paths with this character again then just say that you've never seen him before in your life, perhaps putting on a foreign accent and saying that you've only just arrived in the country.

I take it only the first part is a serious suggestion. I guess we could block his number citing harassment, as I believe the phone companies will do that, but we might need to contact the police to get it done.

She did not give her details to the police. The only information out there is her name and mobile number,and only the driver has those.

We're not really looking for a way out, we'd rather do the right thing overall (karma and all that), if it was her fault (well indirectly mine really, as I did the first stupid manoeuvre, which might have riled him), but we're not willing to be extorted.

IMHO any obligation to "do the right thing" goes out of the window as soon as he start being abusive and threatening - let alone actual physical violence.

I'd phone him up from a blocked number and tell him you were going ot pay, but in the cold light of day due to his unreasonable attitude to the whole thing you've decided to give the money to charity instead. He will probably explode in rage and you'll never hear anything again.

robmanic1

Dirk's right, if the guy had behaved reasonably you could have a case for "karma". As far as I can see if he gets f-all out of it, he's done well. If yout ry to do the right thing by him you'll only be sending out the message that this type of behaviour is acceptable, and we'll end up with more cases like the one reported down-under on other theads.

lardboy

Dirk Van Gently wrote:

I really can't see how you can talk of "doing the right thing" when the driver attacked your friend.

Responsibilty seems to have fallen to both parties for the accident, however there is no excuse for an assault, and I am surprised the Police were such numpties, ok maybe I'm not.

True. On both counts. We're probably being too laissez faire about the whole incident. We're not looking for revenge, as tempting as that is, rather a peaceable resolution from what could easily escalate into something unpleasant.

beesneez

lardboy wrote:

We're not looking for revenge, as tempting as that is, rather a peaceable resolution from what could easily escalate into something unpleasant.

I don't think there is any chance of a peaceable resolution in this situation. The guy has anger issues - he lost his rag after HE hit someone. Even if the light did go green it doesn't mean he should immediately hit gas pedal.

Personally I'd have his number blocked and wouldn't give him a penny. I don't think she's going to get bitten by 'karma' - the verbal abuse and assault that she suffered is more than enough (in fact she should press charges with you as her witness - I doubt he's got any witnesses). If she still feels bad, maybe just send him what she can afford or what she thinks a tiny dent is worth.

cjw

Leave well alone then and don't contact him... however if he contacts you on the phone state that you have contacted your lawyers and they are holding him fully responsible and they have also advised you to pressing charges for the assault.

djkmtb

I'm with Robmaniac, I'm sure the bike didn't crawl under the car to make the dent where you say it is.

robmanic1

Sounds like a smeg head to me!

phil_ss1

Agree with previous post, Green does not me GO! - Proceed if clear to do so I believe!

What if had been a kid on a bike or a ped walking over the junction?

Also I believe you can flee from an incident if you feel you are in danger, you flat mate to me seemed well within her right to move from the scene.

As for the bill I can well see £1400 being the charge for a modern car repair, way of world I'm afraid.

I think the whole issue of blame/stumping up for repair depends on who hit who really.

But I do think the police should be involved with the assault on your friend.

Hope you sort out soon as I can only imagine the worry this has caused.

Regards

Phil

djkmtb

I believe three insurance quotes have to be secured/presented, and the lowest is the acceptable assessment. The preference of the owner is not the standard of the law.

mrchrispy

the guy sounds like a cock and he trying it on. As the others have said, report him for assult and tell him to go swing for the 1400 grand.

djkmtb

Robmanic1 wrote:

Sounds like a smeg head to me!

Sorry, took a couple of looks to see what you typed. Dave rules, but Cat runs a close second, then Kryten and RIM-er. Although they all really hold #1 in the list.

robmanic1

Rimmer's yer man, Listy's never been the same since he sold out and went to Coro

djkmtb

Trivia: Did you know that the first Kryten is now the voice of Talkie Toaster? I have all of the DVD's with all the extra interviews and so on.

By the way, since we are on RD, I have the entire VHS collection and want to get rid of them for a great price, if you happen to know anyone looking for ALL RD stuff.

(I probably shouldn't do that here, but it's worth a try.)

always_tyred

lardboy wrote:

Always Tyred wrote:

Were you still in the bike box when the collision ocurred? Was the direction you were cycling a designated bike route? Is it possible that you could argue that you were crossing from the left of the bike box to the right hand side because you needed to be in that lane to get through the junction, or was is clear that you were behaving as a pedestrian?

I'd say he crossed a stop line. You can truthfully say you believe it was on red. Even if it was not, I believe that the highway code states that even on green, a driver must wait until a junction has cleared. This, of course, prevents drivers from ploughing through pedestrians with a right of priority.

In addition, since the police were there, I think they probably have some names and addresses. Your friend needs, with the police reference number that you should have, to file a complaint for assault against the driver.

The driver committed assault the second he touched your friend's clothing. You are a witness, which should count for something if you are willing to go through the process with her.

I believe that being physically afraid and in shock from being wrestled from the bike is a reasonable argument against being held to the promise to pay the damages. Ditto leaving the scene.

In your friend's position, I would gauge the situation with the police (they may have been crap and not recorded names, or be prejudiced and not be inclined to take wrestling a female cyclist off her bike too seriously). Once you have a sense of the likelihood of the police doing anything, put it in writing, cc it to the driver.

Good luck.

The collision occurred inside the bike box or on the ped crossing right after it. There is a cycle route that uses the ped crossing as part of it, and it was to the right hand side of the ped crossing that we were heading.

The traffic light was definitely on red when I crossed the box, I'm not that dangerous a rider. My flatmate believes that the ped crossing was still green when she started moving.

Thanks for all the advice. I'm going to direct my friend here to see what she thinks. I've already told her not to contact the driver again until we've spoken more.

He probably thinks he's on to a winner - check the insurance quote and make sure it doesn't include oil and filter.

You were absolutely, unequivocally doing nothing wrong in this situation. The driver has hit you and should be brought to book for dangerous driving, assault, etc. If you started across on red, you had the right to complete crossing the road.

My concern with doing nothing is that the police will probably have a record of the incident and contact details for you guys, and the driver has your number.

I'd suggest that, if he doesn't stop calling you, you do your best to indicate that you are taking further legal advice on the incident and the assault.

I guess if he really is persistent, you can add that to the list of concerns raised with the police.

The main aim, I take it, is for him to go away rather than to get him booked for asault, or get damages for your friend's bike? I just can't see any down side to getting added to the record the details of a conversation with the police in regard to that case. Personally, I'd follow it up with a letter to the officer referring to any conversation, which might not get read, but will go on the file and probably be better than anything he writes about it.

This is an absolutely awful experience and ranks right up there with "things that put you off cycling forever". You have my sympathies.

Alibran

lardboy wrote:

There is a cycle route that uses the ped crossing as part of it, and it was to the right hand side of the ped crossing that we were heading.

The traffic light was definitely on red when I crossed the box, I'm not that dangerous a rider. My flatmate believes that the ped crossing was still green when she started moving.

If the cycle route uses the crossing, then it's a shared ped and cycle crossing, otherwise known as a toucan crossing, and you were both perfectly within your rights to be using it as you did. If the light for the crossing was still on green when she started to cross, but changed to red and the lights turned green as she was crossing (very unlikely because there are sensors in these kind of lights to hold the lights until the crossing is clear), then he is still in the wrong. A green light means "proceed IF IT IS SAFE TO DO SO", and since your flatmate was still on the crossing, it clearly wasn't safe. If the police had been doing their job properly, he would have been prosecuted.

fossyant

Is the dent in metal or plastic - because you can get these fixed these days by a smart repair company £50 - £100.

These repairs are fantastic. £1400 is a complete new bumper - why would that be needed. Ask for a smart repair...thing is BMW will used these smart repair folk also !

Gambatte

Tell him you'll pay cash, in person only and arrange a meeting in Birmingham, take it you don't live in Birmingham.......

Anonymous

F##K the driver if he hasn't your friends details , the police don't have her full details . then there can't be anything done by the driver . If the police did not give her a incedent number they ain't going to be doing anything ether ' why not post up his phone number and we can have a bit of fun when we get back from the club at 4 in the morning if everyone does it he'll sone get the message or in the first place take the action i did when being cut up at a junction ' i gave the driver the " i haven't got a girlfriend signal" he slammed on the brakes and i crashed in to the back of him ' he got out and went mental on me so i just chined him knocking on his ass flat out and was applauded by the old lady in the car behined me who seen it all . Just tell the guy to feck off as we do over here he can't do shit