Fiddling Whilst Rome Burns!

OffTheBackAdam

another jacko wrote:

In fact your list of 8 Euro 'facts' demonstrates that you cannot even distinguish between fact and opinion. I see little value, in the circumstances, of continuing this debate with you in this forum.

So which of his 8 "Facts" are pure opinion and which are factual?

My take is as follows.
1. The Common Fisheries Policy was a bribe by Heath to the existing EU in order to get the UK in.
OK, this one is opinion, but well-founded. "The History of the C.F.P.: Just before Norway and the UK applied for membership of the E.E.C. in 1970, the six original members drew up Council Regulation, 2141/70, giving each other ‘equal access’ to each others fishing waters. This was done with such unseemly haste that it was only adopted on the morning of 30 June, the day the British application for membership arrived. The reason for this was that approximately 70-80% of the ‘European’ fish stocks were to be found within UK National Waters and as a new member of the EEC Britain would have to accept all existing European Legislation." ref http://homepages.tcp.co.uk/~ukip/bs_cfp_1_3_1.html


2. The second Norwegian referendum on joining was a reounding "no" because the Spanish demanded immediate access to their waters.
They certainly voted "No" twice in 1972 and 1994 (Close-run vote, but with an 88% turn out!), strangely, France vetoed Norway joining in both 1962 & 1967. The economic ruination of Norway was predicted, 14 years down the line, I don't believe this has occured, but please do correct me if I'm wrong, along with the Swedes who are now working in Norway, of course.

3. The last EU Commission was disbanded following the discovery of widescale corruption among its members, notably Edith Cresson's fraudulent employment of her dentist, and Martin Bangemann's use of his position to pirsue a feud with his sons.
Can't deny this one, can we.

4. The UK's referendum was won on a lie, that the only thing at stake was a common market and nothing further.
Well, again opinion, but well-founded when one considers Heath's pronouncement "This does not mean that the UK will lose its sovereignty" and now we've 80%+ of our laws being European Directives, that Parliament cannot ammend.

5. The EU Constitution is said to be identical in every important respect to the recent "reform treaty", by its own authors.
Well, since we've had such

6. All UK law is subordinate to EU law.
No denying that one, Valery Giscard d'Estaing has said as much.

7.Commission members' voting records are kept secret so as not to allow criticism from their home countries.
Just in case there actually is a vote that reforms the CFP properly and France & Spain vote for it eh?

8. The EU/EC/EEC/Common Market has never, ever had its annual accounts signed off as being true and accurate
Certainly true for the past 13 years.


Comments along the lines of "Seeing little value in debating this issue" do seem to mean.
"Damn, I can't disprove a single statement"

Tourist Tony

So here are some references to my eight points:
1 CFP, lies by Heath et al:, and 2, Norway
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2003005.stm
3. Corruption and disbandment of EU Commission::
Cresson: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2003/mar/26/eu.france
5. 6, Forgive the source, but it has some marvellous quotes, especially the one saying that the Madrid bombings will turn out to be a good thing if they speed European integration. What contemptible arrogance
http://www.liebreich.com/LDC/HTML/Europ ... ution.html

I could go on, but I think the above quote really does sum up the disgusting attitudes of our new masters: Referring to the deaths of innocent people in the train bombings in Madrid,
"Europe has only made progress in the past following dramatic events. If the victims of the dramatic events in Madrid last week help to further European integration, they will not have died in vain."

Dutch MP Renee van der Linden, addressing the European Parliament's constitutional affairs committee in March 2003, the week after 190 people were killed and approximately 1400 injured by the terrorists outrage at Atocha station.

How utterly disgusting.

meagain

"Tory policies to get this country back on track? Tighten up border controls, a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty (actually that's a Labour one but you'd never know it) , sort out the prison crisis and get rid of the Human Rights Act, more compassion for victims of crime - far less for criminals. Action on the pensions that have been shamelessly ransacked by Brown. Make the bone-idle get a job or take their benefits away. Put Coppers back on the beat.......... "

So, 5 out of those 7 (directly) and 1 (indirectly) will COST and thus require either higher taxes or more borrowing. I doubt that the 1 that might possibly SAVE will out weigh the rest!

The Tories started the de-regulation bandwagon - and now seem surprised that the banking pigeons have come home to roost!

The main issue is WHICH Party will tell the truth? The economy is built on sand - borrowed sand at that - and to install new foundations will cost money.

Tourist Tony

Meagain, you ask "which party will tell the truth?"

No surprises there then....that'll be a big, round zero.

meagain

"that'll be a big, round zero."

Sadly true. But I suppose can't really blame "them". Whichever did would receive a "big, round zero" of Seats in a General Election. The great majority of voters are simply not capable of understanding the basic economic issues (never mind the concepts of social justice and right) on which they are asked to "decide". The few that do understand them only too well vote purely in their own narrow and immediate interests.

Whisper it those who dare - but it's still class war out there. It's just that only ONE side has been told they are still fighting - and inevitably that side carries on winning!

Phew, that's enough of a trip into Soapbox for me: it's bad for my blood pressure and depression.

Tourist Tony

Meagain, that is a dangerous route to go down. It's a bit too reminiscent of "Jacko's" attitude that anyone against the EU is too thick to understand it.
It is a byproduct of democracy that everyone should get to vote, with certain obvious limitations such as that of age and citizenship. You can't exclude someone just because they are "too thick" to vote, even though the EU referendum was won on the basis of people being gullible enough to believe the Big Lie (always a sound political trick).
All one can do is try and bring facts into the light, even when the apparatchiks are dismissing them on the one hand and praising the Emeror's wardrobe on the other.
I won't say I am happy to accept clearly wrong voting results, but I remember that they are "wrong" to me, and not to others.
My objection is simply that now we don't just have the "thick" excluded from meaningful democracy, we have the entire electorate. The classic example of doublethink was when the various "mock" referenda were voted on: the government explanation for their resounding defeat was that their people hadn't bothered to vote, but if they HAD....
At least in Zimbabwe they got a vote, even if it came with beatings and intimidation.

OffTheBackAdam

Tourist Tony wrote:

I won't say I am happy to accept clearly wrong voting results, but I remember that they are "wrong" to me, and not to others.

At least in Zimbabwe they got a vote, even if it came with beatings and intimidation.

On the first statement, I agree wholeheartedly!
On the second, you've missed out fraud.

TheBoyBilly

"At least in Zimbabwe they got a vote, even if it came with beatings and intimidation"...

..please don't do that, there is no comparison as to what is being debated (sic) here

Tourist Tony

TheBoyBilly wrote:

"At least in Zimbabwe they got a vote, even if it came with beatings and intimidation"...

..please don't do that, there is no comparison as to what is being debated (sic) here

"Debate" suggests we discuss matters. So far we have had one person declaring that everyone who disagrees is thick and obsessed with bananas, then running away when faced with the facts.
Now.....Zimbabwe. Someone mentioned fraud. EU fraud? Check.
Someone mentioned violence and intimidation. Remember the journalist who mentioned fraud? The one who got arrested? Had his computer and all his research confiscated?

The only difference between the fraud and anti-democratic nature of the EU and that of Zimbabwe is in intensity. There is an old joke in which a man offers a woman a million pounds to sleep with him. She says yes. He then offers her a tenner. She asks him what he thinks she is.
"We've already established that, we're just arguing about price"
The situation with the EU is different to that in Zimbabwe only in terms of intensity. A self-proclaimed elite holds on to power by whatever means it deems necessary. Mugabe is just more open about it.
If you don't like the Zimbabwe example, what about those ungrateful buggers the Irish? After all, they had MPs at Westminster before 1916, what was there to complain about?

The whole point of my hyperbole is to catch the eye and make people think. When the sole pro-EU argument is based on the Emperor's new clothes idea that anyone "anti" is thick....
I have laid out arguments, and the "Euro expert" has run away.

OffTheBackAdam

It's a very common phenomenum (Hmm, spelling looks a bit dodgy), you put up your arguments, with references and counter their arguments, again with references and suddenly "pop" off they go!
Now, whatever you do, don't remind them that when Norway (And the UK) declined to join the Euro, dire warnings of financial ruin were put forward.

NervexProf

worth watching:

http://www.ivc6.com:80/greenfieldtv/remote.php

Tourist Tony

NervexProf wrote:

worth watching:

http://www.ivc6.com:80/greenfieldtv/remote.php

Yes, but they clearly have not been educated. Therefore their views can be discounted, as if they had been properly informed about the EU they would have agreed with its objectives. I mean, it's stopped all wars in Europe. Apart from the Baltic states. And Armenia. And Chechnya. And Ireland. Oh, and Yugoslavia....
I'll ignore Cyprus, it's not in Europe.