Fiddling Whilst Rome Burns!

OffTheBackAdam

And the results are pouring in!
Finally England awakes to the true results of Labour's financial mismanagement.
And what do they have to say about it?
The marvelously competant Mr Hoon.
"There's no crisis. This isn't something that's going to affect the fundamental stability of the government".

"We have to go on making the difficult decisions the country requires".
The equally competant Ms Jowell

Nobody is going to pretend this is our greatest night.

"Generally I think that we would recognise that these elections have been conducted in the context of people feeling exposed and feeling anxious about the state of the economy and its impact on them"

Even the Lib Dems are beating them.
"BBC research suggests the party has fallen into third place nationally with 24% of votes, with the Conservatives on 44% and Lib Dems on 25%. "
Now, let's see if Boris can eject Red Ken.

Gavin Gilbert

so have you Tory fuckwits developed policies for running the country yet, or are you hoping for the 'Not Labour' vote to see you back into power?

Eat My Dust

It might help it people got off their lard laden backsides and voted. My council seat only had a 26.5% turnout!!

Parkey

If you want to really teach Labour a lesson vote Lib Dem and put them into third place. :P

spen666

Parkey wrote:

If you want to really teach Labour a lesson vote Lib Dem and put them into third place. :P

bit late now- the polls shut at 10pm last night!

TheBoyBilly

I dunno how Labour are going to run an General Election campaign next time as they are so skint.........oh hang on yes i do
Tory policies to get this country back on track? Tighten up border controls, a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty (actually that's a Labour one but you'd never know it) , sort out the prison crisis and get rid of the Human Rights Act, more compassion for victims of crime - far less for criminals. Action on the pensions that have been shamelessly ransacked by Brown. Make the bone-idle get a job or take their benefits away. Put Coppers back on the beat..........
...and deport all 5th Columnist left-wing shysters like the Blairs

Swannie

I didn't get a polling card! F******. I was going to vote and everything.

:evil:

Parkey

The problem with Labour is that they're authoritarian. They want to control everything centrally, so called "big government", hence the obsession with top-down targets etc. The result of this is the removal of decision making abilities from people near the coalface (headmasters, police cheifs, hospital trust managers, railway managers, etc). This means a huge bureaucratic civil service machine forms, which in itself is expensive, but there's also a severe lack of flexibility or the ability to react to local issues, as opposed to having to blindly follow the latest government one-size fits all initiative, which has wasted billions of pounds in the NHS alone.

Both the Conservatives and the Liberal Democrats are more libertarian parties, in that they believe in smaller government with more decisions being made locally. The Liberal Democrats suffer for having "liberal" (some people read: "Insane-o-naut commie-nazi") in their name, which is a shame because it stops them then going on to actually look at their policies.

That said I'd sooner have the Cameron wildcard in office than have yet more of what what I've described above from Labour.

Eat My Dust

Swannie wrote:

I didn't get a polling card! F******. I was going to vote and everything.

:evil:

I didn't get one either. I went along to the polling station, gave my address and they gave me my polling card. How safe is our electoral system, they didn't ask for ID or anything. I gave them the address, they said are you Mr ***** ********, I said yes and they handed it over!!!

iainment

TheBoyBilly wrote:

I dunno how Labour are going to run an General Election campaign next time as they are so skint.........oh hang on yes i do
Tory policies to get this country back on track? Tighten up border controls, a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty (actually that's a Labour one but you'd never know it) , sort out the prison crisis and get rid of the Human Rights Act, more compassion for victims of crime - far less for criminals. Action on the pensions that have been shamelessly ransacked by Brown. Make the bone-idle get a job or take their benefits away. Put Coppers back on the beat..........
...and deport all 5th Columnist left-wing shysters like the Blairs

Do you really think he's left wing? What planet do you live on. The Blair/New Labour Project was all about stealing tory ideas with a coating of sugar - which of course is why Cameron so admires Blair.

We've only ever had hints of 'left wing' government in this country which is why it's as bad as it is.

From a disenfranchised socialist.

8)

Parkey

Indeed. "New Labour" got their majority by encroaching onto the Conservatives' territory, so to speak. They aren't really socialists.

Does that mean we need a socialist government now? I don't think so.

iainment

Parkey wrote:

Indeed. "New Labour" got their majority by encroaching onto the Conservatives' territory, so to speak. They aren't really socialists.

Does that mean we need a socialist government now? I don't think so.

That's where we differ.

timbo58

and me for that matter.

TheBoyBilly

So it wasn't the left-wing vote that got Blair & Co. in in 1997 then?

Parkey

TheBoyBilly wrote:

So it wasn't the left-wing vote that got Blair & Co. in in 1997 then?

No it was, as with any political party there are a lot of people who football-support team Labour regardless, but they got a lot former conservative voters too in '97. To be fair John Major's government had it coming.

The point I'm making is that we don't need a swing left or right now, we need to swing away from authoritarian toward libertarian.

1footedninja

[]same face, different mask.

[]by all means show me different, show me the same or even post something completly random.

[]or none of the above

(Please only tick one of the above, all spoilt ballot papers will not be counted)

OffTheBackAdam

iainment wrote:

We've only ever had hints of 'left wing' government in this country which is why it's as bad as it is.

Yes, let's bring back the Labour Governments of Callaghan, Foot & Kinnock!

Tourist Tony

I stopped voting when my government handed over power to corrupt and unelected pocket-liners in Brussels. I have no way of affecting them, so why bother voting?

Nuggs

Tourist Tony wrote:

I stopped voting when my government handed over power to corrupt and unelected pocket-liners in Brussels. I have no way of affecting them, so why bother voting?

How about voting for a party which takes a stronger line on European integration?

To abstain from voting is to admit defeat... And a defeated electorate pave the way for a totalitarian regime...

Parkey

Nuggs wrote:

To abstain from voting is to admit defeat... And a defeated electorate pave the way for a totalitarian regime...

Absolutely. To my mind if you don't vote you have absolutely no right whatsoever to complain about the government, whoever they are.

iainment

OffTheBackAdam wrote:

iainment wrote:

We've only ever had hints of 'left wing' government in this country which is why it's as bad as it is.

Yes, let's bring back the Labour Governments of Callaghan, Foot & Kinnock!

As far as I am aware only Callaghan was Prime Minister and he wasn't by any imagination left wing. Kinnock started the move to the right in the labour party and Foot bless him was never going to be anything other than a transitional leader.

The only truly left wing government was Atlee after WW2 when we got the NHS and the possibility of a welfare state. Even this was doomed to failure because they kow towed to vested interest like the consultants and allowed a hybrid system with private and public health facilities.

Tourist Tony

Nuggs wrote:

Tourist Tony wrote:

I stopped voting when my government handed over power to corrupt and unelected pocket-liners in Brussels. I have no way of affecting them, so why bother voting?

How about voting for a party which takes a stronger line on European integration?

To abstain from voting is to admit defeat... And a defeated electorate pave the way for a totalitarian regime...

The electorate is already defeated, all power has been signed away to a collection of unelected foreigners. There is no party that has a line on "European integration" that I agree with that stands any chance of election.
I seem to remember some promise or other about a referendum, but in true Euro style that was a lie.

Tourist Tony

Parkey wrote:

Nuggs wrote:

To abstain from voting is to admit defeat... And a defeated electorate pave the way for a totalitarian regime...

Absolutely. To my mind if you don't vote you have absolutely no right whatsoever to complain about the government, whoever they are.

The government of this country is unelected. It is a politburo in Brussels. Please explain how I can affect that by voting.

another jacko

Tourist Tony wrote

The government of this country is unelected. It is a politburo in Brussels.

I used to teach "European Studies" to undergraduates. In the first lesson I would ask the students what they thought of the EU and, predictably, the overwhelming majority would respond like TT above. In my experience such views are borne of ignorance - I asked the students next to write down 10 things they knew about the EU - very few got beyond 2 and no-one ever got more than 5. What they did know was frequently limited to the factually untrue EU myths of the "Barmy Brussels Bureaucrat Bans Bent Bananas" kind which are regularly trotted out.

There are many valid criticisms of the EU but also many significant strengths. The same is true of most other systems, schemes, organisations and policies whether it is war, nuclear power, economics, education or the NHS. Unfortunately we do not have political debate in the UK just a slanging match based on misinformation, ignorance and prejudice.

TT then asks

Please explain how I can affect that by voting.

The EU is governed by a series of treaties which the UK Parliament signed up to by virtue of the European Communites Act 1972 thereby incorporating them in UK law. Subsequent amendment treaties (Maastricht etc.) have also been incorporated in the same way.

We can withdraw from the EU at any time by repealing those laws, provided we accept the political, economic and social consequences of that choice. Our governments have thus far chosen to remain in the EU because they have, rightly or wrongly, judged that on balance the benefits of staying in outweigh the costs of leaving.

If you disagree with that view or with any lesser aspect of EU law and feel powerless to change it, that is a consequence of the operation of the UK electoral system. It is our politicians operating under our national political system who choose to remain in the EU and to agree to or reject any particular piece of EU legislation.

If you want to change it you have to persuade enough other people to the view that the benefits of withdrawal now exceed the costs of remaining in and then to put up and vote for enough candidates to form a government which will act to withdraw. If you cannot achieve this, you will be powerless. This is called democracy and having a system of this kind is actually a membership condition of the EU!

Does that explain how you may (or may not because too few people will agree with you) be able to affect it by voting?

Parkey

Jacko, if you are trying to fight right-wing press cynical sensationalism with the truth you are fighting a losing battle as far as many people are concerned.

The truth is usually just too boring and denies them the whinging they so love.

another jacko

Unfortunately it is not just right wing press sensationalism.

Politicians of all colours discredit political debate with 'spin'. sophistry and personal attacks.

The political left generally and single issue campaigns in particular choose not to believe facts that are inconvenient to their worldview just as much as the political right do.

Sometimes it is just that there are appallingly low standards of journalism - the 'Today Programme' formula of attacking politicians is lauded as some kind of accountability, but merely blocks the proper discussion of ideas. Also, on 'Today' and on Radio 5 I've lost count of the number of times they will misquote a politician within minutes of an interview finishing just to achieve an attention grabbing headline. In subsequent bulletins, the misquote then becomes the only information avalaible from which people can form their opinions.

I have great hopes for our education system in the future - no longer do we teach lists of facts to be absorbed and regurgitated to order - we now try to teach the skills of critical thinking, appraisal and evaluation. I don't care if kids spelling is cr@p and they don't know how many wives Henry VIII had, so long as they can think for themselves. If there has to be a choice I would rather we teach our kids how to read and interpret a modern newspaper than how to read and interpret Shakespeare.

Tourist Tony

As I predicted to myself, as soon as the Euro thing arises, the Eurofanatics trot out the "Euromyth2 about bent bananas. Why are you lot so frightened to argue the truth, why do you feel the need to trot out this rubbish every time?
The regulation in question is as follows:
“EU Regulation 2257/94 requires that bananas are at least
13.97cm (5.5in) long and 2.69cm (1.06in) round and do not have "abnormal curvature" "
So your argument is that I am against the EU because of bent bananas and ignorance.
Now, rather than trotting out the usual drivel and lies, look at what I am actually saying. My government is subordinate to a fopreign and unelected body. Nobody in this country ever voted for that, nor have they been given any opportunity to do so or otherwise. We were promosed a referendum by Brown, and that one turned out to be yet another lie.
The UK went into the EU on a series of lies, stayed in on a monumental lie in the referendum, and has lost its sovereignty to a foreign body.
Before you go down the "parliament decides" line, such a decision is ultra vires.

So, I wish to discuss loss of sovereignty, lies and corruption. You tell me I am onsessed with bent bananas and am clearly "ignorant" of European affairs.
Well, I clearly know more about EU directives than you.

Let us start again. You lay off the condescension and discuss democracy.

Tourist Tony

Right, having got the rant out of the way in response to Jacko's factually incorrect post, let us see how many Euro facts I can come up with.
Five is the limit, so far?
1. The Common Fisheries Policy was a bribe by Heath to the existing EU in order to get the UK in.
2. The second Norwegian referendum on joining was a reounding "no" because the Spanish demanded immediate access to their waters.
3. The last EU Commission was disbanded following the discovery of widescale corruption among its members, notably Edith Cresson's fraudulent employment of her dentist, and Martin Bangemann's use of his position to pursue a feud with his sons.
4. The UK's referendum was won on a lie, that the only thing at stake was a common market and nothing further.
5. The EU Constitution is said to be identical in every important respect to the recent "reform treaty", by its own authors.
6. All UK law is subordinate to EU law.
7.Commission members' voting records are kept secret so as not to allow criticism from their home countries.
8. The EU/EC/EEC/Common Market has never, ever had its annual accounts signed off as being true and accurate.

Do you want me to continue? There are loads more lies, but I want to dsicuss democracy, not 2257/94.

another jacko

Tony

I think you will find that there is nothing in my (factually correct) post which marks me out as a 'Eurofanatic'.

At the end of the day, in my view, there are strong arguments both for and against UK membership of the EU and choosing whether to support it or oppose it is quite a fine judgement and ultimately a subjective one as to which side of the fence you will tip. I have no issue with and indeed have had my views influenced by those with whom I start off disagreeing, provded that, unlike you, they have taken a reasonably objective approach to weighing up the arguments to reach their conclusions.

Your response, from the highly selective quotation from an EU regulation to the illtempered rant which follows in both posts, indicates to me that you are one of those I referred to in a previous post

The political left generally and single issue campaigns in particular choose not to believe facts that are inconvenient to their worldview just as much as the political right do.

In fact your list of 8 Euro 'facts' demonstrates that you cannot even distinguish between fact and opinion. I see little value, in the circumstances, of continuing this debate with you in this forum.

robmanic1

thank flip for that!

Tourist Tony

Factually correct?
"I used to teach "European Studies" to undergraduates. In the first lesson I would ask the students what they thought of the EU and, predictably, the overwhelming majority would respond like TT above. In my experience such views are borne of ignorance - I asked the students next to write down 10 things they knew about the EU - very few got beyond 2 and no-one ever got more than 5. What they did know was frequently limited to the factually untrue EU myths of the "Barmy Brussels Bureaucrat Bans Bent Bananas" kind which are regularly trotted out."

When you start a debate by belittling opponents on their lack of knowledge, and then trot out one of the most common lies about Eurosceptics, what do you expect? And this is Soapbox.
I am not against the EU because of the "bent banana myth" (which is not a myth) but because of its profoundly corrupt and anti-democratic nature.
I am not against the EU because of ignorance about it, as you imply, but because of my knowledge of it.

Typically for the Eurofanatic, you are presented with facts that you deride as "opinion"
I gave you eight FACTS. Which ones are "opinion"? If you find facts difficult to rebuff, admit it.
Or are you going to tell me that Edith Cresson didn't employ her dentist illegally, or that the EU has had its accounts signed off?
As usual, Euronutter argument starts with a sneer, then a complaint against the abuse that triggers.
As I said, this si Soapbox. If you can't take the heat.....and by the way, it's "born" not "borne".