Have Planet X lost the plot ?

Zendog1

Their carbon frame bikes were and are a great deal and to my mind they re-defined the higher end market. I was hoping the Ti frames would do the same job (my credit card was out and ready) but £1,000 is just plain stupid. Why go to a bloody American when existing Chinese companies could have done the same job (probably better) at half the price?

Whatever thats my Ti dream f*ucked for this year :evil: :evil: j

giant_man

They're Lynskey frames mate and lynskey frames cost money, simple as. I do take your point and I did bring this up with Planet X before they came out, as you say if they can do it with their carbon frames, why not the new ti ones. Been there done that as they say.

carlstone

The way I see it is that they brought out the procarbon and gave us all the chance to own a carbon race bike for alu money (decent quality excellent value for money). This got us all talking about Planet X. With the Ti frame they are putting themselves in the high quality end of the market and cashing in on the good name they have made (I don't mean this in a derogatory way) for themselves. Make no mistake the Lynskey frame for £1,000 is still a bargain, but it is a bargain high end frame not a bargain mass produced frame.

All in all I think there is still a hole in the market for a £1,000 Ti framed bike and I don't blame Planet X for not going down this route, it's just that the marketing before the frame was released did lead some of us to hope that that is what they were going to do.

henderson_mk

i really *really* liked the alu team superlight frame actually.... particularly in the powder blue...they're a great race bike and mine has served well this season so far..... so I'm quite disappointed that they don't seem to be doing them anymore.

RC21

I think it was their statement that said something along the lines of:

prices are set to blow the Ti market wide open.

I don't see how that is the case. I know it's a Lynskey and it's a good price for them but i'm sure you can get decent Ti frames for less than a £1000. . . . ? I sweat I saw somewhere doing them for about £700 with custom geometry (which you can't get from PX)

I was holding out for one till I saw the price - now i'm going with the Carbon PX which is good value for money

Brian B

I wish they would do a decent size frame. The XL fram has a 56cm top tube - not exactly XL in my books.

pedylan

Lynskey frame for £1000. Current price at 2 dollars to the pound so it'll never be cheaper.

Sunday Bicycles cheapest frame only is £800 and it's representative of Chinese manufacturing economics so I guess you could also buy at around this price from Enigma and others sourcing from China.

Custom fit will be at least another £150.

Is £200 premium worth it in quality terms US vs China? Up to you to decide but a complete bike that is specced to do justice to a £1000 frame will be £2k.

Planet X aren't offering Ti value in the same way as they did with their £999 Carbon product but could they?

robbie the roadie

pedylan wrote:

Planet X aren't offering Ti value in the same way as they did with their £999 Carbon product but could they?

Doubtfull. These are proper hand made frames. The carbon ones popped out of a mould somewhere in Taiwan.

On another issue I'm pretty sure when the Ti sportive came out they were doing a COMPLETE bike with Dura Ace (I think) for a grand.

Tom Butcher

They actually look pretty good value to me - maybe I've been looking at too many top end bikes so a grand for a frame sounds like value but it is titanium so you could reasonably expect to be riding it in 10 years time. I'd rather bike shops and manufacturers made a fair profit and were able to offer reasonable service and backup than try and scrimp to deliver at rock bottom prices.

cougie

If you want a cheap Ti frame - go with XACD ?

A grand isnt a lot for a quality TI frame that will probably last you forever ?

GeorgeShaw

Can somebody explain? Planet-X: £1000 frame, £1600 Dura Ace build. Sunday Silk Road: £800 frame, £2300 Dura Ace build. Is there that much difference in the other finishing kit?

gkerr4

Tom Butcher wrote:

They actually look pretty good value to me - maybe I've been looking at too many top end bikes so a grand for a frame sounds like value but it is titanium so you could reasonably expect to be riding it in 10 years time. I'd rather bike shops and manufacturers made a fair profit and were able to offer reasonable service and backup than try and scrimp to deliver at rock bottom prices.

why would you not expect to be riding a frame of any other material in 10 years time?

I'm quite sure I could be riding my carbon S-works Roubaix in ten years time.

I won't want to - 'cos I know that I will get the itch to change it in a few years at the most - but I'm sure I could...

wildmoustache

yeah, I agree with you gkerr4, the longevity thing is overrated for Ti, both in terms of what can and can't go wrong with Ti and carbon, and more obviously that most of us want to add new bikes to our stables every few years, year, month

It is still a plus point of TI though.

I like the look of the p-x but can't help feeling it's harder for a brand to be stretched upmarket than to widen the appeal downmarket

greg roche

quote"Can somebody explain? Planet-X: £1000 frame, £1600 Dura Ace build. Sunday Silk Road: £800 frame, £2300 Dura Ace build. Is there that much difference in the other finishing kit?"


Guess i'd be able to say something on that. We do put a pretty premium finishing kit on our bikes as standard; £350 retail wheels, £249 retail forks, FSA branded OS bars and stem and seatpost.

One of our retailers does his own builds Silk Road frames and PRO finishing kit / Dura Ace at £1636 with a Silk Road and value wise its very good, but in house we like to offer our frames with excellent finishing kits throughout.

The Lynskey stuff - and Planet X stuff - is excellently manufactured and the sportive looks like a nice bike and looks set to be good value too. But we're confident our products stack up against the competition at any price. It's great that more manufacturers have seen merit in the ti market that we saw 18 months ago when everything seemed to be going carbon.

Iain's a great designer and his tedious attention to detail (read his Sunday School blog on our website for an insight into how his mind works) means that our frames ride great and we've had no failures in our first 18 months. On that evidence, why would we move our manufacturing anywhere?

Greg

giant_man

Nice new web site Greg and finally some images of the September! Very good.

But please enlighten me; the Reynolds fork on the pictures there, not an audax fork with mudguard eyes is it?

ddraver

Planet X and on-one (i don't know if they are exactly the same, but theyre bloody close)have recently made 2 Ti bike frames with linksey - the sportive one and the 456 Ti - both retail at 1000

remember that asking lynksy to do it themsevels would cost 2500 odd for the frame only

Its still a bloody good deal for such a quality frame/frames 9i made the decision on the tI soda about a week before the 456 landed and am still smarting a bit!!!), and Planet X exist for more than just to give you a good deal matey

aracer

It's only really a good deal if you think having a "Lynksey" sticker on the side of your bike adds value.

ddraver

I know that having a handbuilt frame does not mean it wasnt made at 4 00 on friday afternoon but if it made no difference at all then no one would buy anything other than factory made Halfords carbon frames as they d be just as good. you re kidding yourself if you think any old frame is as good as a frame made by a top quality fram builder

If you want a cheap bike buy a cheap bike but don't knock a brand that sell better frames for more money as well.....they exist to make bikes - not to make cheap bikes - the "cursoryest" look at the success of on-one will tell you that the planet x model works (as its the same!) even with the associated brand snobbery that seems somewhat ingrained into the road scene (as in the Campag v shimano, Assos vs everything else etc etc)

giant_man

ddraver wrote:

I know that having a handbuilt frame does not mean it wasnt made at 4 00 on friday afternoon but if it made no difference at all then no one would buy anything other than factory made Halfords carbon frames as they d be just as good. you re kidding yourself if you think any old frame is as good as a frame made by a top quality fram builder

I totally agree!!! Good comments

aracer

ddraver wrote:

I know that having a handbuilt frame does not mean it wasnt made at 4 00 on friday afternoon but if it made no difference at all then no one would buy anything other than factory made Halfords carbon frames as they d be just as good. you re kidding yourself if you think any old frame is as good as a frame made by a top quality fram builder

It's OK - brand snobbery will prevent that ever happening. The handbuilt frame market is kept alive and well by all the people like you who believe there is some magical benefit to them (and wouldn't be seen dead riding a bike with the wrong sticker on the side) - exactly what tangible benefits do you get from a handbuilt frame as opposed to one mass produced in a factory though?

meagain

"£350 retail wheels, £249 retail forks, FSA branded OS bars and stem and seatpost"

Key words being of course "retail" and "branded"! If folk want to pay x2/x3....x/5 essentially just for a sticker, that's their business. But WHY assume that a low volume made in the shed frame etc is any BETTER than a mass produced item? Would you buy your PC from a guy in a shed who bolts together 10 a year @ 3 grand or the 500 quid one of a million that you are sitting in front of?

I suspect that P-X made so little on their previous forays into Ti that they thought they'd try the snob approach. "Hmmm, the punters would PREFER to pay a grand than 500 for 10 quids worth of "better", who are we to prevent them?!" Good luck to 'em I say.

robbie the roadie

on one are not new to this. They made the t'inbred years ago and that cost a lot more than anything else they were selling and they all sold out.

meagain

"they all sold out." Not very MANY though! Nor of the On One Ti cyclo crossers.

ddraver

I don't see the reason behind a Ti cyclocross bike as thats pretty much, (OK not exclusivly) a racing bike so stiffness and lightweight are the main issues - less so with trail/hardcore hardtail MTB's and sportive roadies where the benefits of Ti become more apparent and the disadvantages are less

The Ti 456 is extremely popular at the moment....

may i ask what you ride aracer? I can't understand how you think that EVERYONE who buys a bike that is more expensive than the cheapest apollo/ASDA/Tesco bike on offer...

but to answer the OP - no they have nt lost the plot - they selling good quality bike at good prices - what has changed?

PHcp

Not all titanium frames are the same, a cheap titanium frame will start with cheap tubes.
The £800 frames will use plain gauge, the Planet X and the £1,100 Sunday frames use double butted. Nothing to do with snobbery or stickers and all titanium frames are hand made.

jpembroke

I rather like the idea of a Ti 'cross frame. It'll be as light if not lighter than alu frames, will be stronger, more comfortable, and will probably last a good deal longer. For 'normal' cross racers I suppose it wouldn't make much of a difference but for things like the 3 peaks I could be a real benefit.

andrewgturnbull

Hi there.

Can you get titanium tubing in weird and wonderful extrusions like aluminium, or are you stuck with round tubes?

I like the idea of a ti cross bike, but I also like the flattened underside of the top tube on my cross bike - much more comfortable for shouldering.

Cheers, Andy

jpembroke

Wish my 'cross bike top tube had a flattened section. I have a Planet X Uncle John; should have a got a Kinesis Pro5. Interested to see what Planet X do with a Ti cross frame but if it's £999 it's going to take some convincing.

Pirahna

aracer wrote:

exactly what tangible benefits do you get from a handbuilt frame as opposed to one mass produced in a factory though?

Depends what you're looking for. If you've got problems fitting onto a mass produced frame, if you want something to do a specific task or you just want to be a little bit different then a handbuilt frame fits the bill.

For an example, my wife rides a custom frame. The frame has a 53 top tube but a 170mm head tube, to make the frame very tall (she has very long legs). To add a bit of individuality there is a bottle opener brazed onto the left hand chain stay. I've only found one mass produced frame that she could comfortably fit on to and that's a Scott cyclocross which she uses as a winter bike.

daveplanetx

Some interesting comments .

One of the great reasons we are enjoying working with lynskey is not only their excellent production quality , and the simple fact they are jolly nice people - but it gives us an ability to develop prototypes and bring qualioty frames to the market very quickly - which is a real exciting change for us .

They also have excellent product and design knowledge that we know we can trust , theyve been working with titanium and producing bikes for the worlds best riders for many years - for us , its important that they are contributing this input to our designs , and its worth a premium .

If we went to production with a chinese manufacturer for sure the ti frames would be far cheaper - over half the price , retail less than 500 pounds , but wed have both long leadtimes for samples and production , and wed have to start dealing with factories and companies we dont know , so wed have untested frames and we would not have the added benefit of lynskeys input .

In 2009 were very probably going to produce a chinese ti frame , but right now its not the right move for us , and even for something as simple as it really is a jolly nice feeling working with one of the worlds best , and most experienced and knowledgable titanium
manufacturers .

As for complete bike pricing - that is where even our lynskey produced ti bikes are going to go head to head with the competition , the in house components that we spec on our bikes are we feel superior to much more expensive counterparts from the likes of FSA - we simply source our own branded items but to the highest specs - eg our bars are the highest possible specced 7075 triple butted bars , our superlight team stem is a 125g 3d cold forged 2014 jobbie , and wed very gladly pitch our model B wheelsets against competitor products such as reynolds solitudes .

ddraver

don't wanna swap my cotic soda for the new coloured Ti 456 do you dave me old mucker?!?! :roll: :roll: :roll: