A real Classic. Raleigh's finest on e bay

bagpusscp

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/VINTAGE-T-I-RALEI ... dZViewItem

£600 + has to be ,any cheaper and you have a bargin .£500 new in the late 70's £2,000 at todays prices .Its my size as well . When I worked for Raleigh I used to drool over this model.

Hmm .Had a closer look not all early super record parts as on the team bikes , .Rear mech is a Nuovo, IMO .Still none the less a lovely machine

rdaviesb

Yum..... :P

NervexProf

Feedback on seller doesn't inspire confidence.
Description a little vague too!

NorwegianBlue

I reckon this is much nicer



http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Raleigh-Record-Ace-Very-Original-1933-34_W0QQitemZ130217708563QQihZ003QQcategoryZ420QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

clanton

Possibly a silly quiestion 0 but would you ride these bikes if you bought them? Or just keep them for display?

Gavin Gilbert

clanton wrote:

Possibly a silly quiestion 0 but would you ride these bikes if you bought them? Or just keep them for display?

Generally mine only get taken out on dry days and are ridden very carefuly :?

Old alloy parts are not that reliable, the brakes are a total pig and gears (if fitted) are clunky in the extreme. The only ones that get any sort of proper road time are the '47 Holdsworth Cyclone which I run fixed and the '79 Holdsworth 531 Special.

I may race the Rotrax at Herne Hill this coming VCC track day if I recover fitness in time

bagpusscp

NorwegianBlue wrote:

I reckon this is much nicer
Yes I totally agree . No pedals and a pair has just sold for £160 or £180 :shock: Yes just a pair of pedals.I dont think I can justify another. :roll:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/74418119@N ... 675787816/


Hmmm

meagain

The red one IS nice - same 531 sticker as on the Carlton I recently bought.

I don't think it'll do 500 quids. 3 and a half?

NorwegianBlue

clanton wrote:

Possibly a silly quiestion 0 but would you ride these bikes if you bought them? Or just keep them for display?

I'd ride them if I bought them for a reasonable price.

"Collectors" (ie sad gits who want to hide their purchases away and brag about them) have pushed the prices of bikes like these way above their true worth. It doesn't apply to these two, but there are plenty of bikes that weren't much good new, let alone today, but they have become collectable often on rarity alone and fetch silly money. If the economy goes the way it's looking at the moment then it won't be too long before the arse drops out of the market. Then hopefully all the collectors will try to cut their losses, the market will flood, prices will fall still further and bikes like this will be selling to people who want to use them. They were built to be ridden, not looked at. </RANT>

GJ

bagpusscp

Interesting comments ."What is a reasonable price".If you have had a frame resprayed .Rechroming done .Its a bit like classic cars / motor bikes .The cost of rebuilding can take it way beyond what is really worth.If I had a big garage I woud be messing with cars and not push bikes :roll: .Every time I see my mates Manta A {opel} I want to bring it home. :idea:

Gavin Gilbert

NorwegianBlue wrote:

clanton wrote:

Possibly a silly quiestion 0 but would you ride these bikes if you bought them? Or just keep them for display?

I'd ride them if I bought them for a reasonable price.

"Collectors" (ie sad gits who want to hide their purchases away and brag about them) have pushed the prices of bikes like these way above their true worth. It doesn't apply to these two, but there are plenty of bikes that weren't much good new, let alone today, but they have become collectable often on rarity alone and fetch silly money. If the economy goes the way it's looking at the moment then it won't be too long before the ars* drops out of the market. Then hopefully all the collectors will try to cut their losses, the market will flood, prices will fall still further and bikes like this will be selling to people who want to use them. They were built to be ridden, not looked at. </RANT>

GJ

The alternative view is us collectors are custodians of the sports history and the development of the bicycle. I have explicity spent over the odds on bikes to stop some herbert stripping them of parts, powdercoating them and calling it an 'urban fixie

NorwegianBlue

bagpusscp wrote:

Interesting comments ."What is a reasonable price".If you have had a frame resprayed .Rechroming done .Its a bit like classic cars / motor bikes .The cost of rebuilding can take it way beyond what is really worth.If I had a big garage I woud be messing with cars and not push bikes :roll: .Every time I see my mates Manta A {opel} I want to bring it home. :idea:

Once they're resprayed/rechromed/restored they tend to be worth less than a good unrestored example anyway. My comments apply equally to cars and motorbikes, particularly when it comes to the issue of "rarity value". Why is a restored standard 1965 Mini Cooper S worth more than a newer more mundane Mini (a real one not a BMW Nought Series) that has been modified to a better spec than a Cooper S? It isn't to me.

GJ

bagpusscp

What price rust?and worn out alloy . You pays your money you take your pick..If a bike is old and has been owned by someone who rides it hard and it is 60 years old it will be knackered.A mate who knows his Raleighs has passed up on the"RRA"?
Beware of traders who hype prices up.

NorwegianBlue

Gavin Gilbert wrote:

The alternative view is us collectors are custodians of the sports history and the development of the bicycle. I have explicity spent over the odds on bikes to stop some herbert stripping them of parts, powdercoating them and calling it an 'urban fixie

The trouble with that point of view is that it's the one put forward by almost every bike/car/motorbike/bus and probably vintage fridge collector in the world. Not that I've ever seen an urban fixie fridge.

I can see the point with genuinely rare/imporant examples of the subject under consideration, but only if those examples of the breed are available for the perusal of other intested parties. The majority of collectors seem to keep this preserved history to themselves. OTOH I do know a couple of car collectors whose cars are mostly on loan to museums.

There's also the question as to whether "preserving history" is at all imporant when there are hundreds if not thousands of that particular bike in collections around the world.

However I still maintain that the majority of bikes were built to be ridden, and locking them away and polishing them is in many ways an insult to the people who built them.

GJ

bagpusscp

Interesting points GJ .Last year I visited one of the "National Cycle collections" which is open to the public .The foot fall is small and is of limited interest to the none cycling public.Indeed most members of the general public think £100 is a lot for a bike.As for hiding bikes away have you visited flickr Classic lightweight bicycles240 people world wide with a common interest and open to anyone who wants a look.
Every week I see how little people care about old bikes by the amount that go down the tip . £5 last week for a Raleigh 20 .Needs a front wheel .£20 for a new one .I will wait for an old one to turn up. A lot for my stuff has been given to me or swapped for other bits . Yes classic cars do end up in Museums on loan mainly because of the room required to store them.I offered two of my bikes to a Museum on loan ,only to be told ,you can gift them to us be we do not do loans?This was due to insurance issues and admin or so I was told. Most people who collect anything,do it because they get pleasure from it and often meet others with the same interest . There is or was one big world wide interest in nostalgia .However you could take the cynics view that it is all pure hype and none of it is worth keeping.Yes if I could find a local Museum I would gladly loan them my bikes . The buzz I get is nuts and bolts and putting it back together not the end product.It is great fun when I go to Sgt Bash mode!

NorwegianBlue

I sympathise with the issue about museums. I know that one of the guys I know who loans cars to museums has to sign a damage waiver for most museums. The museums have public liability insurance, but insuring the cars against damage is the owners responsibility. He says however that his normal policy on the cars (he has a policy that covers about thirty cars!) covers him for the cars being displayed to the public as long a a few conditions are met.

I also agree that the act of rebuilding them is a huge amount of fun. However I prefer my bikes to be tatty, but 100% usuable rather than in better than showroom condition. I also have a tendency to sell them soon after they are rebuilt. I bought a Coventry Eagle Flight Deluxe last year for a fiver. I sold the mudguards (which were far too wide for the 26x 1 1/4" tyres) for £15, fitted a new rear wheel at a cost of £19 then tidied it up, adjusted everything and sold the finished product for £20. Even made a modest profit, which was nice. Ebay is great when you can buy and sell at the right price, and yes I have worked ebay fees into the final figures.

Our local car museum has quite a few old bikes on display, but they're all slightly foxed as they say in the world of antiquarian books (I think one of them may be wolved and hyenaed as well). I did consider offering my services to restore them, them, but then I decided they would lose their charm.

One of the problems with old bikes is that there isn't that much visual difference to most people (including many cyclists) between that Raleigh at the top of the post and my £5 Coventry Eagle. Or indeed the £30 Peugeot Electra that's my current main ride. Joe Public sees an E Type Jag and he can tell it's something different even if he's lived on Mars for the last 50 years. He sees a very expensive road bike from the same era and it's just a bike, there's nothing to tell him visually at least that every component is the creme de la creme in it's own particular field. Something like Boardman's Lotus on the other hand is obviously special. The fact that the design of the "safety bicycle" was so close to perfect from day one means that except in the short period between developments like the Lotus and the UCI regulations trying to turn the clock back very few functionally superior bikes actual look it. However, where styling took precedence over function there people notice those bikes and would be interested to see them in a museum.

My own personal preference, however, is for neither of those two extremes. I like a basic, but functional bike with no airs or graces. And those come cheap, so long as nobody tries to sell them on some spurious concept of "rarity value" or "historic significance".

bagpusscp

Which continues an interesting debate .The link that started this post .The Raleigh replic team bike .In its day this model {ok the team issue was 753} 531 for mortals was considered the finest bike of its day by the cycling press {I am not taking about collectors now pushing up the price.The team bike was ridden with great success by the Peter Post lead Ti Raleigh racing team.The bike is a small piece of history of Raleighs ioo+ years of engineering success,and in their day makers of the finest bicycles in the world.

This did not cost a fortune . Same bike as the Raliegh .Just a different colour.No fanfare,but raced for about 20 years {not by me}
http://www.flickr.com/photos/74418119@N ... 673051032/

NorwegianBlue

Therein lies a reference to another post from last week. Team replica bikes were (and indeed are) the poor relation to the the actual team bikes. And yet, on occasion, I have seen the replicas sell for more money than actual team bikes. This is an indication that the fact that a bike is seen as "collectable" will result in a valuation that is surely at odds with it's "true" worth.

As a postscript I seem to recall that the top end Raleighs of that era were built at the Carlton plant anyway. Didn't TI buy Carlton in order to have a top end brand at a time when their other brands Raleigh included were perceived as being somewhat middle of the road?

GJ

NervexProf

Interesting thread...we are all subject to youthfull recollection.

I grew up via 'Raleigh' directly to 'Holdsworth.

What influenced me was that most club riders started on a Raleigh./Carlton.....and then became subject to the influence of a 'spec' hand-made builder..with easy payment terms added in as an inducement!

Alll that said, I am encouraged to read that there are still folk, like 'Bagpuss' - and others who apply devotion, and skill to keep these heritage marques available to be admired..and perhaps, more important..to be ridden.

Placing heriitage marques with a museum is the challenge...from experience, if provenance is provided - i.e. pictures and paperwork, then this should not be a problem.

bagpusscp

It makes me smile to think that it was only about 3 year ago when I started my interest in classic lightweights .Till then it was ride the damm things to destruction :twisted: Hmm sign of age Still the 30 year old Raleigh got me to work this morning {£50} out the local paper. 531 triathlon. 8)

meagain

"£500 new in the late 70's £2,000 at todays prices"

Yes but....that's akin to saying that a pocket calculator would have been £2m at 1960s prices! Technolgy has moved on and relative and absolute prices have dropped. Today's equivalent (but with BETTER more functional components) Raleigh is really the top of their alu Airlite range - say 500 quid!!

While it looks very nice (and I think I would one almost identical about 20 years ago that cost me 60 notes) no one would pay 2 grand for a new bike with that stuff on it would they? It's all a matter of differential inflation, driven by demand AND supply.

bagpusscp

Dave .Raleigh now do this..
http://www.bikeradar.com/gear/category/ ... eset-12236

Put a top end group set on it and £2000 is soon spent.

meagain

Yes - and the frame is very nice (one passed me t'other day, I assume from local Raleigh Direct Sales shop). The 1000 quid "standard" carbon one is though I think the closer equivalent to the "classic" one - or even the top alu!

bagpusscp

After taking to a Raleigh expert . Who noted the following
1/ Rear mech hanger fitted to mech not frame
2/ No re-enforced rear brake bridge.
3/ Head badge rivets new?
4/ 700c wheels not tubs .
5/ No mention of cut out bottom bracket shell..Standard on all team replic bikes.531/753
6/ No questions from buyers shown.
7.Brake blocks not campag.
Hmmm

meagain

Drat - I OVERestimated this - went for 270 quid! And no wasn't me!

bagpusscp

You OVER ESTAMATED .Ahh I have a degree in over that subject :oops:

NorwegianBlue

bagpusscp wrote:

Dave .Raleigh now do this..
http://www.bikeradar.com/gear/category/ ... eset-12236

Put a top end group set on it and £2000 is soon spent.

I think Dave was making the point that the bike in question was no better than a modern £500 Airlite, not actually stating what the top of Raleigh's range currently sells for. Sure you could spend £2K on one of those, but it would be much, much, much, much, much better than the bike on ebay.

Modern bikes may not look much different than those of thirty, or even sixty years ago, but functionally they are muchx10 better. Like most things today I think this is largely due to computer aided design and manufacturing processes.

GJ

NorwegianBlue

bagpusscp wrote:

After taking to a Raleigh expert . Who noted the following
1/ Rear mech hanger fitted to mech not frame
2/ No re-enforced rear brake bridge.
3/ Head badge rivets new?
4/ 700c wheels not tubs .
5/ No mention of cut out bottom bracket shell..Standard on all team replic bikes.531/753
6/ No questions from buyers shown.
7.Brake blocks not campag.
Hmmm

Due to collectors artificially inflating prices there are people out there involved, to a greater or lesser extent, in fakery.

There are those who will attempt to build complete fake. You know the sort of thing, start with a frame that looks vaguely right, bolt on all the right bits (or rightish) and blatanty lie about it's identity, history and provenance.

There are also those who will simply embroider the truth a little. This might involve taking a bottom of the range bike and pretending it's a top of the range example. Raleigh, among others, have used the same name on different specs of bike. IIRC the team Banana bikes could be had as a 501 tubeset with aluminium 700c rims and an 18-23 tubeset with steel 27" rims, the group and finishing kit was spec'd accordingly. There could have been other specs too, I'm not that much of an expert. More than once I've seen people trying to pass off the basic steam pipe framed model as one of the higher spec models, by merely implying the bike was a high spec, collectible item rather than stating it outright.

Caveat emptor and all that.

In this case I don't think the real collectors with the serious money were convinced.

Cheers,

GJ

markos1963

NorwegianBlue wrote:

bagpusscp wrote:

After taking to a Raleigh expert . Who noted the following
1/ Rear mech hanger fitted to mech not frame
2/ No re-enforced rear brake bridge.
3/ Head badge rivets new?
4/ 700c wheels not tubs .
5/ No mention of cut out bottom bracket shell..Standard on all team replic bikes.531/753
6/ No questions from buyers shown.
7.Brake blocks not campag.
Hmmm

Due to collectors artificially inflating prices there are people out there involved, to a greater or lesser extent, in fakery.

There are those who will attempt to build complete fake. You know the sort of thing, start with a frame that looks vaguely right, bolt on all the right bits (or rightish) and blatanty lie about it's identity, history and provenance.

There are also those who will simply embroider the truth a little. This might involve taking a bottom of the range bike and pretending it's a top of the range example. Raleigh, among others, have used the same name on different specs of bike. IIRC the team Banana bikes could be had as a 501 tubeset with aluminium 700c rims and an 18-23 tubeset with steel 27" rims, the group and finishing kit was spec'd accordingly. There could have been other specs too, I'm not that much of an expert. More than once I've seen people trying to pass off the basic steam pipe framed model as one of the higher spec models, by merely implying the bike was a high spec, collectible item rather than stating it outright.

Caveat emptor and all that.

In this case I don't think the real collectors with the serious money were convinced.

Cheers,

GJ

Totally agree with above, also have you seen the number of 'sticker/decal' sellers on ebay, I am sure that not all of the 531/753 stickers end up on genuine restorations :roll: This is why when I was looking for a Record Sprint I went for one that was described as low spec(501) and took my chance. In the end it paid off a I got a nice genuine bike that came with a set of expensive handbuilt wheels that the seller didn't know he had.

bagpusscp

I know a lot of old cyclists who give me loads of old bits .Their comments are it was crap then and its crap now .The new stuff works much much better .I totally agree ,Yes I have a lot of crap :shock: also been know to talk it :oops: Still I can always ride a modern bike.

Pete Beer

I've had modern bikes and they are long gone but I would be devistated if something happened to my old no name, made from bits fixed, now there's a bike. Horses for courses.