Thoughts on handlebar height...

neeb

My current bike came with quite a large drop from saddle to bars (about 8cm) which at first I was quite happy with. I didn't have any trouble reaching the bars and didn't have any back issues. When I had a proper bike fit done, they recommended I reduce the drop by quite a lot. I was a bit reluctant at first to be honest, a larger drop being more aerodynamic and all the rest. Also, the only easy way to do it was to flip the stem, which I initially had aesthetic issues with (actually it looks fine).

However, I did it and it's been great! The drop is now about 4.5cm. The best thing about it, I've realised, is that it truly opens up the full potential of the handlebars. With the larger drop I rode on the hoods 90% + of the time, and the drops were only for short stretches onto a headwind. I could reach them fine, but it just wasn't the most comfortable position for prolonged periods. Now the drops are practically as comfortable as the hoods and I switch effortlessly between the two. Descents are a joy and I feel more in control. Looking at old photos of the TdF etc, it's clear that while the same handlebar shape has been used continuously since the early 1900s, the height of the handlebars relative to the saddle changed in the late 20thC (becoming lower) and only now are some riders adopting a more traditional slightly higher bar. In the past I guess riders would also have used the drops more simply because the levers were not so clearly designed to make the hoods comfortable.

So is a slightly higher bar the natural accompaniment of the drop handlebar shape, and the trend towards ultra low bars a mistake which restricts its potential to offer the widest range of comfortable hand positions? Or would I go faster if I lowered the bars again? Or maybe both?

aracer

It all depends how flexible you are and how long you're riding for. If you can reach then lower is better, however I'd suggest that if you were only managing 10% on the drops then they were to low. You do see a lot of people who only ever ride the hoods. Personally my current position is a little higher than I once was, hence I ride on the drops quite a lot - though it's still probably a lot lower than most. The recent trend for higher positions is probably a consequence of more average riders seriously riding longer distances in sportives, where comfort is more important.

andrewgturnbull

aracer wrote:

It all depends how flexible you are and how long you're riding for. If you can reach then lower is better, however I'd suggest that if you were only managing 10% on the drops then they were to low. You do see a lot of people who only ever ride the hoods. Personally my current position is a little higher than I once was, hence I ride on the drops quite a lot - though it's still probably a lot lower than most. The recent trend for higher positions is probably a consequence of more average riders seriously riding longer distances in sportives, where comfort is more important.

Hi there.

On the other hand, I deliberately put mine as low as I can, just because I spend 90% of my time on the hoods with my wrists resting behind. I find it more comfortable there, but I want to be as low as possible in that position. I tend to only use the drops when cornering, descending, sprinting or leading a paceline.

Cheers, Andy

neeb

Hi both, Thanks for the comments.

I guess I want to get to the position where I can have the bars lower and also feel just as comfortable in the drops then.

I wonder how much it matters though. If I really want to get low I can just go into the curved part of the drops and also bend my elbows so that my forearms are horizontal. That feels pretty low.

meagain

And cyclists are by and large an aging demographic as they say. I can see no point to drops whatsoever OTHER THAN for actual racing. I doubt that 10% of those with drops use the lowers more than 10% of the time. And the "more positions" argument is thus rendered meaningless. Flats with bar ends give as many "positions" and MORE that are actually useable.

andrewgturnbull

meagain wrote:

And cyclists are by and large an aging demographic as they say. I can see no point to drops whatsoever OTHER THAN for actual racing. I doubt that 10% of those with drops use the lowers more than 10% of the time. And the "more positions" argument is thus rendered meaningless. Flats with bar ends give as many "positions" and MORE that are actually useable.

Hmm, you're making the mistake that the 10% of the time doesn't matter. On the contrary the times when using the drops is useful are usually the crucial times...

redddraggon

andrewgturnbull wrote:

meagain wrote:

And cyclists are by and large an aging demographic as they say. I can see no point to drops whatsoever OTHER THAN for actual racing. I doubt that 10% of those with drops use the lowers more than 10% of the time. And the "more positions" argument is thus rendered meaningless. Flats with bar ends give as many "positions" and MORE that are actually useable.

Hmm, you're making the mistake that the 10% of the time doesn't matter. On the contrary the times when using the drops is useful are usually the crucial times...

I agree with Andy. I spend most of my time on the hoods or flats - but then again I seemingly spend most of my time climbing. But when I'm on the flat going fast or descending at 30+mph the bike is more stable on the drops (especially when braking).

I think one of the problems is that people get the wrong shaped drops than are comfortable for them - so they don't use them - it's not necessarily a reach issue.

neeb

And cyclists are by and large an aging demographic as they say. I can see no point to drops whatsoever OTHER THAN for actual racing. I doubt that 10% of those with drops use the lowers more than 10% of the time. And the "more positions" argument is thus rendered meaningless. Flats with bar ends give as many "positions" and MORE that are actually useable.

Yeah, I have to disagree there too. Even for everyday cycling I find drops much more flexible and comfortable than flat bars. I suppose flats with bar ends give you about the same positions as drops without the drops - the bar ends are the equivalent of the hoods and the normal grips the equivalent of the tops. The drops offer at least two other positions though - the full-on drops position with hands in the curved part of the drops and in reach of the brakes and shifters, and the straight-arm position with hands at the end of the lower flat part of the drops, which is good for a change/stretching sometimes. I can honestly say that I use all of these positions fairly regularly!

neeb

I think one of the problems is that people get the wrong shaped drops than are comfortable for them - so they don't use them - it's not necessarily a reach issue.

Completely agree there. My current round bars are a lot better than my old "ergo" bars for me. The drops feel more natural and I can reach the brakes and shifters easily.

redddraggon

What sort of saddle to bars drop distance do people have?

I've just measured the bike I've just built and the drop is about 13cm - what do other people have?

mab bee

13cm is huge! Mine is just 4cm

mab bee

I think that having a 'big drop distance' is just about fashion. The bigger the drop distance, the more extreme, and faster the bike looks. In actual fact it is a lot more comfortable, and faster, to have a sensible drop distance.

Most of the pictures you see in C+ show stupidly large drop distances.

redddraggon

mab bee wrote:

I think that having a 'big drop distance' is just about fashion. The bigger the drop distance, the more extreme, and faster the bike looks. In actual fact it is a lot more comfortable, and faster, to have a sensible drop distance.

Most of the pictures you see in C+ show stupidly large drop distances.

I ran out of spacers...I've got 4cm of spacers under the stem though. It's comfortable anyway.

geoff_ss

mab bee wrote:

13cm is huge! Mine is just 4cm

I suspect you and reddragon are at cross-purposes. I'm guessing your 4cm is to the top of the bars and rd's to the lower riding position. Perhaps you'll clear it up for us. I agree that there is an element of fashion in that lots of seat pin and low bars is considered stylish. Youngsters without any arthritis (yet ) can cope with extreme positions without too much suffering.

I always found drop bars to be perfectly comfortable and covered big distances (up to 400km) with no problems at all. Unfortunately, that's in the past and I now use short, flat bars with bar ends on my road bike and find them very comfortable with a good variety of positions. The bars are about 4cm below the nose of the saddle.

For me, the main problem with drops was on long descents when I needed to be able to use the brake levers properly. It was agony on my neck and shoulders so I simulated the 'bar top' position with flats and the brake levers were much easier to use.

Geoff

redddraggon

Geoff_SS wrote:

mab bee wrote:

13cm is huge! Mine is just 4cm

I suspect you and reddragon are at cross-purposes. I'm guessing your 4cm is to the top of the bars and rd's to the lower riding position.

Nope, this is to the flat bit at the top by the stem. I've measured it again and it's closer to 12cm.

gkerr4

12cm sounds a fair bit - but 4cm doesn't sound anything - even my super-relaxed riding postion specialized roubaix is much more than 4cm and I have a 10 spacer above the big 20mm cone spacer!

redddraggon

For some reason, bikes (for me) never feel comfortable on the turbo, my good bike feels like I'm reaching far too much, but on the road it's fine. My latest bike feels ok on the turbo - and it's got a rather larger drop so I hope it's going to be uber comfortable on the road.



Does the drop look that ridiculous?

I didn't actually think the drop was that much and thought I was being a wimp for putting so many spacers under the stem.

neeb

That's a lot, but no more than a few of the pros have.

My main problem with going that low wouldn't be flexibility, it would be the front of the saddle putting excessive pressure in certain delicate areas...

neeb

BTW it doesn't look that much - I think because the top tube is horizontal.

andrewgturnbull

Hi there.

When I bought my current TT bike 3 years ago I had a fitting session done first, and they recommended a 13cm drop (measured to the centre of the top of the bars. I've nudged this down a wee bit over time though, and it's currently sitting around 18cm.

It all depends on what kind of riding you want to do... I wouldn't ride a hilly sportif on that bike. For comparison, the new road race bike is 14cm, the track bike 12cm and the cross bike 11cm.

Cheers, Andy

redddraggon

You've got me thinking - I've just measured the drop on my commuting bike and even that's a minimum of 9cm (difficult to measure as it's got a sloping top tube) and I even wear a rucksack and still feel rather comfortable on the bike.

I guess I must be pretty flexible but then again I should be at 21.

andrewgturnbull

redddraggon wrote:

I didn't actually think the drop was that much and thought I was being a wimp for putting so many spacers under the stem.

Hi there.

Re the spacers - that's a very short head tube on the ribble.

Cheers, Andy

ps what happened to the blue rug?

neeb

difficult to measure as it's got a sloping top tube

How are you measuring it? Easiest way is to have the bike against a wall, mark where the top of the saddle is, then move the bike so that the bars are underneath the same spot on the wall.

redddraggon

andrewgturnbull wrote:

ps what happened to the blue rug?

It's still there, it's just been away from the window slightly.

redddraggon

neeb wrote:

difficult to measure as it's got a sloping top tube

How are you measuring it? Easiest way is to have the bike against a wall, mark where the top of the saddle is, then move the bike so that the bars are underneath the same spot on the wall.

On the Horizontal frame I measure from the top of the saddle to the top tube and the bars to the top tube, and then take one away from the other.

neeb

Measuring drop to the bars is easy, it's saddle setback I find tricky... Plumb lines sliding forwards on chainstays and floors that are never completely flat.... I get a different reading every time I do it.

gkerr4

redddraggon wrote:

You've got me thinking - I've just measured the drop on my commuting bike and even that's a minimum of 9cm (difficult to measure as it's got a sloping top tube) and I even wear a rucksack and still feel rather comfortable on the bike.

I guess I must be pretty flexible but then again I should be at 21.

aha - here's the rub - I consider myself fairly young and flexible (still) and even i've got 13years on you!

That ribble frame is very racy - look at the size of that Headtube - it's tiny! - the frames must be very long in the top tube for you to get one of that size (if you see what I mean?)

redddraggon

gkerr4 wrote:

redddraggon wrote:

You've got me thinking - I've just measured the drop on my commuting bike and even that's a minimum of 9cm (difficult to measure as it's got a sloping top tube) and I even wear a rucksack and still feel rather comfortable on the bike.

I guess I must be pretty flexible but then again I should be at 21.

aha - here's the rub - I consider myself fairly young and flexible (still) and even i've got 13years on you!

That ribble frame is very racy - look at the size of that Headtube - it's tiny! - the frames must be very long in the top tube for you to get one of that size (if you see what I mean?)

55cm TT for a "50cm" frame. Sounds more like a sloping frame than a horizontal one.

Swannie

On my flat bars, it looks to be about 6cm down from top of saddle to top of bars. That is very comfortable. I've been thinking about shuffling some spacers to drop the flats even more. The saddle could go up 2 more cm, but not enough post left

If/when I get a road bike, I will be aiming for 8cm drop to start with. Probably increasing as comfort allows.

leguape

Big saddle to bar heights is a relatively new phenomenon, comes from the 80s aero craze as far as I can tell. Look back to the pre-Lemond era and there was very little drop between the two for a high percentage of the professional peleton.

For your young and flexible rider I reckon 4-8cm is about plenty between saddle and the tops of the bar (in terms of road bike rather than TT bike). I think a lot of people assume that if they can reach the drops then that's fine but I'm always worried when I see riders with their arms locked out so they can get on the drops. You sacrifice a huge amount of control in the most stable position on the bike like that. There needs to be some sort of angle there to control the bike through corners and over bumps properly.

andrewgturnbull

leguape wrote:

Big saddle to bar heights is a relatively new phenomenon, comes from the 80s aero craze as far as I can tell.

Hi there.

That's not a craze, that's progress... The 80s was a long time ago!

Cheers, Andy