Another needless Death

markorm

... outside my flat this morning on Kingsland Road.

An alleged altercation with a cyclist and a lorry. By the presence of the little tent that had been erected in the road, it would appear the cyclist didn't come away favourably.

Something must change if we're going to live in a unified world of bikes and heavy traffic.

Everyone, please be safe, don't cut in the inside of vehicles, if it means staying behind a bus\lorry\van until they're clear of the lights, do so, it will only take another couple of seconds to your journey.

We need to rethink our roads if we're going to live together on them.

Thoughts to the victim's family.

Felix-da-house-mouse

how come there are so many cyclists deaths in this country? is it us or everyone else. i would like to see how the uk's death figs compares to the rest of europe in particular netherlands.

pyro_maniac

probably a combination of poor driving and poor education, as well as a lack of common sense i think
everyone seems to be in a hurry to get somewhere so they dont assess the situation correctly, make a bad call and end up worse off for it

giant_man

I think the lack of a regular (eg every five years) mandatory driving test that comes with blatant disregard of the Highway Code and a lack of road manners in general is the problem.

Too many vehicles in general on the road. Plus the arrogance that comes with the fact that some car drivers still think it unfair that cyclists don't have to pay car tax, or insurance, or MoTs etc. etc.

It will get worse before it gets better unfortunately.

rossbarney2003

There is a total lack of respect to cyclists on the road I think. All I hear is "Bloody cyclists....." from drivers that I know, and yet when i'm on my bike it's the drivers that take all the stupid chances on the road......

pyro_maniac

not just down to the motorist though, its suicide trying to get down the inside of a vehicle
bad road manners concerning both parties,i have seen cyclists and motorists make errors

rossbarney2003

pyro_maniac wrote:

not just down to the motorist though, its suicide trying to get down the inside of a vehicle
bad road manners concerning both parties,i have seen cyclists and motorists make errors

Yeh I know what you mean......

In my own personal case though, it has been other motorists taking stupid risks just to pass me. I wonder if half these motorists would even stop if they did clip my bike and I fell off.....

markos1963

Had an arguement today with a lorry driver who insisted that he had right of way on my side of the road when overtaking a parked car! I asked him where did he think I would be able to cycle and his response was " I don't care, under my wheels preferably"

Its these attitudes that mean we will ALWAYS be treated as second class citizens on the roads. You only have to read the articles in the press by people such as Nigel Havers and Jeremy Clarkson(I can't get away from him, he used to have a go at motorbikers as well when I rode them). We laugh at them a lot of the time but all those Daily Mail readers DO take notice and if someone in print justifies taking action against us then you can bet that nudge from behind by a 50yo Rover driver would be defended in court successfully.

What the answer is I don't know, I would like to think that eventually the lack of fuel and congestion would persuede enough car drivers to go on two wheels and realise the dangers faced.

top_bhoy

Start putting away some of the offenders into prison (even the mums and the grannies) and you'll maybe start getting the message across to drivers to be more aware of their surroundings. Careless driving get 150 quid fine, 3 points and not much else. Far too many drivers have, in my opinion, their heads up their arses half the time and need to learn to take it out for some air on occassions. To many are not aware of the environment in which they drive.

pyro_maniac

i think if there was a better cycle network in this country then a lot of car drivers would be on 2 wheels, even with fuel prices going throught the roof people will always drive though, and there will always be lorries, just a part of life unfortunately

RichardFcp

Wearing my driver's hat, I see way too many cyclists in London diving up the inside of vehicles indicating that they are going to be turning. I have even had a cyclist ride up the nearside of me and cut across the front of my car when I had started turning left! :shock: Whether moving or starting from stationary to turn left I always check my nearside mirror for cyclists. As someone else pointed out ^^^, common sense is needed by all parties involved in trying to get around places like London.

pyro_maniac

it is worse in the cities, but even in a smallish village/town like where i live its still bad on the main roads, we have a lot of hgv traffic in the area and people are oblivious when on a bike, they need to take more care on the roads, as well as the truck drivers giving more room and being more aware of whats going on

markos1963

Top_Bhoy wrote:

Start putting away some of the offenders into prison (even the mums and the grannies) and you'll maybe start getting the message across to drivers to be more aware of their surroundings. Careless driving get 150 quid fine, 3 points and not much else. Far too many drivers have, in my opinion, their heads up their arses half the time and need to learn to take it out for some air on occassions. To many are not aware of the environment in which they drive.

I agree but when was the last time you saw a driver even get charged with manslaughter all you see nowerdays is a dangerous driving charge because the CPS err on the side of safety to get a conviction. The last person(s) to be thought of in this situation is the body in the grave and their familys.

rockon338

yeh , its not only in the cities where this happens though.. its just as bad if not worse in the countryside at times. only the other day i nearly got ran other by a van driver who tried to overtake me when i was indicating to go up a road, he only seemed to try to overtake aswell when i was halfway across the road. mustve been only a few cms away from htting me.
another thing that bugs me is that most drivers at night leave their lights on full beam when they see a cyclist!

Anonymous

I don't bike in the UK, but from a lot of the dialogue I see on this site concerning traffic interactions, there is a lot of anger from motorists and bikers, alike.

Getting the anger under control may be, and is obvious, to be a first step toward a safety dialogue between the two.

I see motorist activity on the road that I think is wrong, but I choose to stay calm and focused. If and when I have the opportunity to approach the driver, I speak calmly and stay chilled.

I will NOT let it ruin my ride. It isn't worth it.

I try not to insist on blaming, but rather, pointing out dangerous behavior. If the motorist doesn't see it, it will NOT become clear. Usually they do get it and are most often thankful.

I see bikers do things at times, also, that put them in danger as well. Neither side is without fault.

Anger is like a disease, it is very contagious, and denial is the fertilizer.
Just my thoughts.

My sympathy and condolances to the family and friends.

neeb

I think a really big public education initiative is what's needed, firstly to make drivers think more about cyclists, their needs and their right to be on the road, and secondly to make it socially unacceptable to take actions that put cyclists and other road user's lives at risk. Perhaps this should go hand in hand with an initiative to teach cyclists safe road skills (as long as the bigger emphasis is on safe driving).

Some cycle networks are great but we shouldn't forget that we have a right to be on the road and to campaign for this. In Finland where I am at the moment there are cycle lanes everywhere, but many of them are really bad. Cyclists are considered more as pedestrians than as vehicles and many paths are shared with pedestrians. There are actually MORE ACCIDENTS amongst cyclists on paths than those using roads, due to the fact that the paths cross junctions every 100 yards or so... Needless to say it's impossible to cycle properly on these urban "cycle paths" (although the dedicated out of town ones are great), as you are always having to slow down for pedestrians and badly dropped kerbs, and you feel as if you don't have a right to be on the road if there is any sort of cycle path provided, however bad.

This articlehas an attitude towards cyclists I find offensive (particularly suggesting that increases in cycling have to be at the expense of public transport rather than cars, and the emphasis on how "dangerous" cycling is without connecting that to the fact that the danger is caused by other traffic, not bikes ), but it also reveals how cycle lanes and a positive but misguided attitude towards cycling can sometimes make things worse.

ademort

Felix-da-house-mouse wrote:

how come there are so many cyclists deaths in this country? is it us or everyone else. i would like to see how the uk's death figs compares to the rest of europe in particular netherlands.

In the Netherlands 181 cyclists were killed in 2005, of which 16 were as a direct result of a cyclist riding into the blind spot of a lorry and colliding at a junction.
in 2006, 216 cyclists were killed on the roads, and 26 were as a result of riding into the lorry,s black spot and colliding at a junction. Greetings Ademort

pneumatic

I gather that in the Netherlands, bikes have priority*. If a motorist hits a cyclist, it is automatically the motorist's responsibility. That is why in cities like Amsterdam, the cyclists ride like maniacs, safe(?) in the knowledge that they are immune from prosecution.

*I would be glad of corroboration of this folklore, as I only ever get it from one source, and always after several pints!

neeb

If you scroll down about half way on that article I linked to, it has a comparison of deaths per x number of kilometers for a number of European countries (and also how this relates to numbers of cyclists). Surprisingly, Finland is almost as bad as the UK despite all the cycle lanes, and Austria is worse. Italy is much worse, but then so are all forms of road deaths there...

ademort

pneumatic wrote:

I gather that in the Netherlands, bikes have priority*. If a motorist hits a cyclist, it is automatically the motorist's responsibility. That is why in cities like Amsterdam, the cyclists ride like maniacs, safe(?) in the knowledge that they are immune from prosecution.

*I would be glad of corroboration of this folklore, as I only ever get it from one source, and always after several pints!

Hi no cyclists do not always have priority, it depend on the road markings or sign posts just as anywhere else .

Anonymous

neeb wrote:

I think a really big public education initiative is what's needed, firstly to make drivers think more about cyclists, their needs and their right to be on the road, and secondly to make it socially unacceptable to take actions that put cyclists and other road user's lives at risk. Perhaps this should go hand in hand with an initiative to teach cyclists safe road skills (as long as the bigger emphasis is on safe driving).

Some cycle networks are great but we shouldn't forget that we have a right to be on the road and to campaign for this. In Finland where I am at the moment there are cycle lanes everywhere, but many of them are really bad. Cyclists are considered more as pedestrians than as vehicles and many paths are shared with pedestrians. There are actually MORE ACCIDENTS amongst cyclists on paths than those using roads, due to the fact that the paths cross junctions every 100 yards or so... Needless to say it's impossible to cycle properly on these urban "cycle paths" (although the dedicated out of town ones are great), as you are always having to slow down for pedestrians and badly dropped kerbs, and you feel as if you don't have a right to be on the road if there is any sort of cycle path provided, however bad.

This articlehas an attitude towards cyclists I find offensive (particularly suggesting that increases in cycling have to be at the expense of public transport rather than cars, and the emphasis on how "dangerous" cycling is without connecting that to the fact that the danger is caused by other traffic, not bikes ), but it also reveals how cycle lanes and a positive but misguided attitude towards cycling can sometimes make things worse.

Most certainly right. If the requisite for licensing were mandated, certainly there would be education offered to the biker as a component to becoming licensed. Those costs could be used for surface repairs and creating rights of way. I would be first in line, because of the improved awareness afforded to the biker as well as the protection offered. I know a lot of places in my home town (Seattle) where bikers are clueless as well as places where it's just the opposite.
There's actually a section in the Washington state code listed as "Rules for bicyclists and motorists travelling with bicyclists."

Education, as you stated, is the first step. Sign me up.
Before I moved out here to the southeast US, I taught classes to 12 year olds north of Seattle. Kids are "sponges."

pyro_maniac

i totally agree bikers46, road sense and riding in traffic need to be taught an early age, as you say kids are like sponges
do they still run cycling proffeciency courses at school?
they used to when i was in primary school (many years ago, i am 34 now)
not sure how licencing cycle riders would work, but i think it would be a good idea to 'register' the bike for use on roads and pay a small fee (like £10 a year) to go towards upkeeping cycle paths and routes

neeb

Yeah, someone calculated once what the road tax would be for a cyclist if it was proportional to the amount of upkeep that was required on the roads due to bicycle use as compared to car use. It was a fraction of a penny or something like that! I'd have no objection to being registered so that I could be identified on the roads, and paying a proportionate annual tax, even paying to take a cycling "driving test". It would make it clear ion no uncertain terms that cyclists had a right to the road. Probably it will never happen however, as a nationwide scheme like that would be expensive for the government to implement - they would rather spend our (other) taxes on cars.

hodsgod

I feel really strong about this, I first drove HGV when I was in the army and again when I was a fireman. These vehicles have big blind spots regardless of how many mirrors you put on them.

We as riders must drive defensively around these large vehicles, I live in London and see far too many riders with no time on their hands and a death wish!

Car drivers are another matter, I have encountered more good than bad, but the idiots that think they can overtake with 6" clearance really bug me.

How many of us on here know the highway code section for cyclists (if there is one), it's clear that I don't.

neeb

With CCTV and all the rest it would be a relatively easy matter to fine drivers who drive dangerously around cyclists, e.g. overtaking without giving enough space (and of course not giving right of way!). When I was driving in London I was fined for clipping the end of an empty bus lane while moving into the left hand lane to turn left (thus allowing people going straight ahead to pass). So were a lot of other people, it was very controversial I think. If the council have the time to employ someone to pore over CCTV footage to that completely pointless and obstructive end, why can't they catch and prosecute drivers who cut up cyclists? Because public opinion would be against it, that's why. So cyclists are killed because society's prejudice is official policy, to the extent that the implementation of measures that would improve their safety is blocked.

hodsgod

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/TravelAndTr ... /index.htm

I decided to look for the highway code, it is at the above link.

oldwelshman

Simple, change the law to be like netherlands, hit a cyclist, its your fault .
Basically in the UK there seems to be a three tier class system.
Lorry drivers seem to think the road is theirs full stop, no one else has a right to interfere with their line. How many times have you as drivers been cut up on motorwys when they just pull out.
I was on M1 once and they were so close to each other on insiode lane I missed my junction !!
Next in line come white van drivers who basically never look left or right, always on the phone and think they are driving a proche as the hog the outside lane all the time.
Then at the bottom is the car driver who takes out his anger on cyclists as lorries are too big to argue with !!

danjameswil

my girlfriend was there when this accident happened this morning, its on her route to work.

to be brutally honest, what she saw sounds horrific

she only missed being caught herself by a matter of seconds.

Its definitely made me worried about riding through the capital.

CrookedCucumber

danjameswil wrote:

Its definitely made me worried about riding through the capital.

Sadly, it's not just the capital. There is fast-moving, and often careless-driven, traffic all over the place.

pyro_maniac

truck drivers in the majority dont think they own the road, they have to take those lines so they can move, its not as easy as a car/van and they need a bit more room, have a go driving one and see the difference
van drivers are nearly always under pressure to do 150 drops a day so their concentration lacks and they tear arse about all day
and car drivers just need to be better educated and look around more, easier to do as they have a lot of glass and few blind spots
not saying what happens is right, but there is no point just bashing someone cuz they drive a car/van/truck
i do agree though that the enforcement needs to be toughened up concerning accidents on the motorists fault

WRogers

I live out in the countryside (ish) outside a small town... I cycle to my saturday job each week and find that car drivers overtake you round blind corners and i frequently hit the brakes because a car is coming the other way round the corner!!

I noiw ride "defencively" that is to say i ride in the middle of the left lane, this stops most idiots. I am just glad i don't live in a city!!!

The other thing that gets me is when a car hoots at you at a junction when you pull off as the lights turn green and you out accelerate them so they can't push past!!

I am now saving up for a face mask thingy and a thicker helmet for more protection