Totally OT - Digital SLR's

il_principe

Well completely OT but hey ho:

In my late teens/early 20's I was quite a keen amateur photographer and dabbled with a rather old but reliable Canon SLR. Sadly I managed to leave the camera in an Athens’s restaurant and couldn't afford to replace it.

I'm having a good few month’s commission wise at work and can finally afford to get my hands on a digital SLR and get back in photography again. Any knowledgeable folk on here at all?

Budget is £600 or so to include at least one lens. Currently I have my eye on either the Canon EOS 450D or the Olympus E-510.

Any idea/recoms/advice would be much appreciated. Ideally I'd like a jack of all trades camera, but will mostly be photographing London life/buildings/people etc.

Cheers.

Jamey

Ah... After sitting here looking at countless threads about cycling stuff that I know little about, finally someone's started a thread talking my language

Right then... Forget the Olympus, not because it's a bad camera but because when you buy an SLR (digital or otherwise) you're buying into a whole system of accessories, lenses, flashguns, etc etc... You want as much choice as possible for your future purchases and there are really only two players in town that can give you the full range - Canon and Nikon.

They're like the Coke and Pepsi of the camera world. Photographers argue on internet forums for weeks on end about which is better and the truth is that it doesn't matter. Both Canon and Nikon are streets ahead of all the competitors so as long as you get one of those two, you're laughing.

Best way to decide is to actually, physically feel the cameras in a shop and see which one seems nicest in your hands.

As for the lens, I'm afraid the sad truth is that a decent lens (on its own) will cost upwards of £400 so the best thing to do is worry about that later and just get a camera that comes with a kit lens (usually an 18-55mm zoom). The good news is that the Canon kit lens has got a lot better recently and the Nikon one has always been decent.

They're not good lenses in their own right, but they're worth the extra £50 that they cost compared to just buying the camera body without a lens.

il_principe

Mmmm, ok so Nikon and Canon - Campag and Shimano, which is the campag equivalent and I'll get that one!

I'm leaning towards the Canon but only because I've had a Canon before. Thing is though, the Olympus has anti-shake built into the body which is a plus for me. I don't have the steadiest of hands and when I used to shoot without a tripod this was often a bit of an issue.

Which Nikon is on a par with the Canon 450 and is the 450 about right for my budget (and quite frankly amateur status)! I have also been led to understand that the Lens kits supplied with the Oly tend to be much better than the Canons.

Thanks for your help.

Jamey

I guess Nikon would be more Campag, assuming that Campag are more "Apple" and Shimano are more "PC" but we're probably getting too far into analogies now

At the entry level, Nikon have the D40, the D40x and the new D60. Out of those I'd go for the D60 if I were you. Better comparison with the Canon EOS 450D.

As far as anti-shake goes, don't worry about that for two reasons:

1) Systems that have the stabilisation in the lens rather than the body tend to work better anyway.
2) Higher ISO sensitivities on modern DSLRs are starting to get very clean, so you should be able to get decent shutter speeds anyway.

I always used to think I suffered from camera shake but the truth is that holding a heavy camera gets you halfway there anyway, and the rest is playing about with settings to get a decent shutter speed.

Don't worry about lens kits either... Any lens that's given away as part of a bundle isn't going to be great, tbh.

il_principe

Thanks Jamey, some great shots there by the way. I'm gonna have a play around with some options this weekend.

I'd forgotten how expensive lenses are as well. I seem to have a nasty habit of choosing expensive hobbies!

Jamey

The process of manufacturing lenses hasn't changed much for the last few decades. The very best ones are heavy and expensive and probably always will be.

I think you're doing the right thing by having a play around. Some people find the Canon a little small in their hands and prefer the beefier feel of the Nikon. Others like the compactness.

One other consideration is what brand your mates have (if any)... If you've got a couple of friends with Canon DSLRs then you can borrow their lenses if you buy the same brand.

But yeah, have a play around in the shop... But don't buy on the spot and don't pay too much attention to the salesperson. I've given a few people advice on buying DSLRs over the last few years and the one thing that seems constant is that salespeople will talk bollocks to you. Just nod, smile, play about, tell them you need to think about it and then come back here with any questions and to find cheaper deals online (though some places will price-match websites if they've got the item in stock).

graeme_s-2

Whether you go with a Nikon or a Cannon, get yourself a 50mm lens to go with it in addition to (or maybe even instead of) the kit lens.

One of these:
http://www.bristolcameras.co.uk/p-canon ... 1-8-ii.htm

or one of these:
http://www.bristolcameras.co.uk/p-nikon-50mm-lens.htm

I bought the Nikon 50mm a couple of months back for my D50, and I haven't had my 18-55 kit lens on the camera since. They're fantastic lenses for the price. You can see some pictures taken with them on flickr here:

http://www.flickr.com/groups/canonef50mm/
http://www.flickr.com/groups/nikkor50mm18/

Here's one of my better shots taken with my 50mm:

Jamey

I agree that the "nifty fifty" lenses are great value. In fact, they're the only cheap lenses that are... It's to do with that particular focal length (50mm) being much easier to manufacture cheaply than any other length.

I do think it's still worth having the kit zoom though, as 50mm isn't very useful indoors... it's too long (ie too 'zoomed-in') for smaller rooms and having an 18-55mm lens in your bag will mean you're well-equipped for pretty much anything except very telephoto stuff.

Mark Alexander

Well, Jamey, there was a inspired comment, now finally something that I know about!!
I use Nikon-fit mainly because I was a Nikon F90 film user but just to confuse things, I use Fuji S2Pro. it had a better portrait colour balance. They're all right, Canon or Nikon for £600 though you'll have to be careful.

The most important thing when photographing is the lens. You need good quality light to reach the sensor/film.
Then there's the sensor itself. Nikon and Canon have their own way of doing things, nikon produced a cooler picture, Fuji a warmer one for the same lenses.
Nikon's forte' is build quality.
Anything over 6MP is worth getting (and it's almost impossible not to) My personal recommendation would be along the lines of the Nikon D60
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0801/08012910nikond60.asp
dpreview are very good.

Jessop give good advice but buy elseware

mitchell_inman

I'm certainly no expert, but I do have a Canon EOS 400D, and I think it's great.

I've had it about 9 months, find it easy to use and it takes good photos in most situations (skill of the user notwithstanding). It's my first DSLR, so I can't compare with anything else, but I couldn't see that you could go wrong buying one!

Craig

shazzz

Agree with what's said above - go with Canon or Nikon, whichever feels best in your hands.

If you still have decent Canon lenses from before they may work on a Canon DSLR which could swing the decision for you.

I have a Nikon D80 which you can now get for £620 with a 18-135mm lens after the cash back. That's a great deal.

Don't forget about software. You could try gimp which is free, otherwise pay for Photoshop, etc.

shazzz

PS - to save your blushes by googling 'gimp', you can get it from here....
http://www.gimp.org/

il_principe

shazzz wrote:

Agree with what's said above - go with Canon or Nikon, whichever feels best in your hands.

If you still have decent Canon lenses from before they may work on a Canon DSLR which could swing the decision for you.

I have a Nikon D80 which you can now get for £620 with a 18-135mm lens after the cash back. That's a great deal.

Don't forget about software. You could try gimp which is free, otherwise pay for Photoshop, etc.

I must admit I'm being drawn to the Nikon's - mainly due to price. TBH the reviews for the 450 and the D60/D80 are all glowing. I already use gimp but may try and get hold of a hooky version of adobe for testing purposes!

Sadly my old Canon lenses have long been sold. Where did you get that Nikon deal, sounds perfect! Although will i notice much difference between the 60 and 80?

Thanks all.

bornagainbiker

This is a great site for finding the best price

http://www.camerapricebuster.co.uk link works now!

Sony are doing some great deals as well and they have the Minolta A mount lens fitting.

http://www.cameraworld.co.uk/ViewProdDe ... N06H000017

Nikon D80 + 18-135mm lens £619.99 before the £50 cashback offer

shazzz

Here's the D80 at Jessops (£670 tehn £50 cash back):
http://www.jessops.com/Store/s35925/0/D ... lse&comp=n

If you are in London then you may want to support these guys (who have the camera for £650) rather than a chain store....
http://www.graysofwestminster.co.uk/pro ... gital.html

il_principe

shazzz wrote:

Here's the D80 at Jessops (£670 tehn £50 cash back):
http://www.jessops.com/Store/s35925/0/D ... lse&comp=n

If you are in London then you may want to support these guys (who have the camera for £650) rather than a chain store....
http://www.graysofwestminster.co.uk/pro ... gital.html

Great, the Grays guys are literally .3 miles from me so I'll nip in there on sat! Cheers.

Mark Alexander

Just in case someone suggests it [you seem to have been steered away though] whatever you do, avoid 'digital viewfinders'. There are a couple.

When considering lenses, don't forget the 1.5x increase a 50mm will be 75mm effective. I think [don't quote me] may not have this due to the sensor.
I recommend a 17-35 and 28-80mm lens. If you can push to that.

nwallace

A mate has a Nikon D40 and the metering is way off, though its quite old now.

If you still had your Cannon lenses then I would have said Canon 400D straight away.

I have a small collection of FD kit, no intention of going digital SLR yet. Wanting to get my hands on a T-90

APIII

jashburnham wrote:

shazzz wrote:

Here's the D80 at Jessops (£670 tehn £50 cash back):
http://www.jessops.com/Store/s35925/0/D ... lse&comp=n

If you are in London then you may want to support these guys (who have the camera for £650) rather than a chain store....
http://www.graysofwestminster.co.uk/pro ... gital.html

Great, the Grays guys are literally .3 miles from me so I'll nip in there on sat! Cheers.

Make sure you go in the morning. They used to close at 1pm. Think they still do.

Jamey

Really?

What a quaint little anachronism

FSR_XC

If it were my £600 I would look to buy one of the last Canon 400D's as they are great value.

Many people slate the 18-55mm lens that it comes with, but I have seen some amazing pictures taken with this lens.
For a bit more reach (& to stay in budget) look at a Sigma 70-300mm (make sure it is the APO version), that will set you back iro £160.

This is a good beginners set up that can be slowly upgraded without spending thousands from the offset.

400D:
http://www.warehouseexpress.com/product ... ku=1014248

Lens:
http://www.warehouseexpress.com/product ... ku=1008569

Total: less than £560, giving you some money for memory cards and possibly a spare battery (from ebay).

guinea

As has been said previously you buy into a system when you buy either a Canon or a Nikon. Do youself a favour and ignore all other brands.

I'm a Canon user. Only because I had one years ago and once you start you can't change. If I had all my gear removed I might change to Nikon, but I think I'd probably buy Canon again.

Canon seem to have far better lenses for the money. Both lenses are great, but bang for buck the Canon is better. Also, Canon have historically better ISO performance (low light) and better autofocus. On the other hand, NIkon have a better flash system, so if that's of high importance to you it may help you decision.

To be honest you can't go wrong. Pick the one that looks best!

il_principe

Well had a bit of a play with a D60 D80 and EOS 450D this morning and I have to say I prefer the Canon. Have been thinking about lenses (or should I say Glass!?) as well, do you think this is a decent starting option:

Canon EOS 450D Body
Canon EF 50mm f1.4 USM
Canon EF 28-135 mm f 3.5-5.6 IS USM

Any thoughts?

Jamey

Just to revisit something FSR_XC touched upon... Do not under any circumstances buy memory cards or spare batteries from a bricks-and-mortar shop. Buy them online instead.

Physical shops put a huge margin on those items.

Plus, If I were you, I'd order a memory card ahead of time if possible so that when you buy the camera you can begin using it straight away and don't have to wait for the card.

Spare batteries aren't really necessary at first but when you do decide to get one, you shouldn't have to pay more than about a tenner for a no-mark one on the internet, and it's definitely not worth getting official, branded ones.

Personally, I do think the brand new EOS 450D is worth the extra money over the older EOS 400D but that's my opinion.

Jamey

jashburnham wrote:

Well had a bit of a play with a D60 D80 and EOS 450D this morning and I have to say I prefer the Canon. Have been thinking about lenses (or should I say Glass!?) as well, do you think this is a decent starting option:

Canon EOS 450D Body
Canon EF 50mm f1.4 USM
Canon EF 28-135 mm f 3.5-5.6 IS USM

Any thoughts?

Don't buy the 28-135mm lens. Save your money for something really worthwhile in a year or two.

The 50mm f/1.4 is not significantly better than the 50mm f/1.8 and the latter is a lot cheaper. Basically the f/1.4 is slightly sharper in the corners but the f/1.8 is slightly sharper in the centre. There are good lens reviews on www.photozone.de

Personally I'd buy the following if you're going the Canon route:

- EOS 450D with 18-55mm kit lens
- EF 50mm f/1.8
- Save rest of money for 'L' glass in a year or so.

il_principe

Really, I've read fairly slating reviews of the kit lens though...

Jamey

Yeah, it's not great but it's not meant to be.

The point is that you just need something cheap to get started with and then, once you figure out what sort of photography you like best you buy an expensive lens that specialises in that field...

For example, if you decide you like landscapes, you might buy a 17-40mm f/4L or a 16-35mm f/2.8L Mk II.

And if you decide you like portraits, you might splash out on an 85mm f/1.2L (which I'd love, if anyone wants to buy me one)

Or for sports/nature, you'd buy a quality long zoom, or if you were feeling really rich, a long prime.

But all of those come later. To start with just stick with the kit. If you buy a lens that costs £200-£300 you'll just end up trying to sell it in a few months when you figure out which lens you really want and you'll find it's not worth much.

That's the one thing a lot of people forget - expensive lenses hold their value really well and you can usually sell them for a similar price to what you paid. But cheap lenses lose value a lot quicker so in the long term, the true cost of a cheap lens is often identical to an expensive one. It's just a case of tying up your money over the time you own the glass.

il_principe

Thanks Jamey, I think I'll go down the route. I always used to enjoy landscape/architectural photography so the 17-40mm f/4L could be ideal (have to keep doing well at work!). Problem is I enjoy sports photography as well and those fast lenses look damn pricey.

Jamey

Quality telephoto lenses get very pricey, very quickly.

However, if you're willing to stick at around the 200mm mark then there are a few good Canon lenses that aren't too stupidly expensive, namely the 70-200mm f/2.8 (both the IS version and also the non-IS version).

Personally, I never use the tele I own and only rarely use my 100mm. 99% of the photos I take are with my 35mm f/1.4L partly because it's beautifully sharp corner-to-corner and at almost any aperture and partly because I genuinely like that focal length on cropped-sensor cameras.

Nuggs

I was a Canon man for many years before buying a Nikon D70 a few years ago.

When you pick up a Nikon you feel like you've left the toy shop and entered the hardware store

HarryB

Jash, a man who rides a Prince (with Campag) really ought to be using a Nikon.

I have a Nikon 70s and so does my son. Never a spot of bother since we bought them. A Canon doesn't feel like a REAL camera to me. Too small and just the wrong feel in my hands.