From Lance to Landis

124

Comments

  • Arkibal
    Arkibal Posts: 850
    me too.
    "Innocent until proven guilty". Works for me..
  • moray_gub
    moray_gub Posts: 3,328
    OllyBianchi wrote:
    leguape wrote:
    Timoid. wrote:
    DaveyL wrote:
    Ullrich missed two of the seven due to injuries in the warm up races, Hamilton's papier maiche collarbones took him out of two when he would have been a threat, Valverde should have won in '05 if he hadn't damaged his knee, Zulle should have beaten him in '99 but his team forgot about the Passage Du Gois. Lance never crashed early season, never damaged himself training, never got caught in a stupid crash in the first week and never got amubushed.

    Eh Valverde would have won in 05 ? Deary me .............he was already three minutes down when he won at Courchevel I would be interested to find out how he would have taken those minutes back from Lance who was a better climber and far superior time trialler . As for Zulle in 99 i think Lance would have whupped him even without the passage de gois crash, as Phil Ligget famously said as Lance blew all away on the climb to Sestrieres '' if you can win in the mountains and win in the time trials then theres not much else to winning the TDF'' . As for Ullrich and Chimera Boy you dont honestly think either were a threat other than in 03 do you ? Methinks you are letting your obvious dislike of Lance play with your mind into rewriting history here.

    cheers
    MG
    Gasping - but somehow still alive !
  • vermooten
    vermooten Posts: 2,697
    Hmmm... just read this whole thread. read the Walsh book a few months ago, loved it but by god he's a man on a mission isn't he.

    Anyway reading through the posts and picking my way through the emotion, I started wondering about the nature of truth. Why argue if truth is a simple concept? There are different kinds aren't there, among which are:

    * mathematical truth (1+1=2 no matter what), just requires thought
    * scientific truth, such as adding this chemical to that chemical causes an explosion, requires evidence to disprove the hypothesis
    * historical truth, such as "Christian Europe tried to smash Islam during the Crusades" which needs evidence as well as interpretation of the evidence

    With the Lance thing, we can see how each works. Did Lance use PEDs? We don't seem to be able to call upon scientific methods to say that he did - after all, as someone said, there's no evidence that he did. And to some people, that's the end of the story.

    To others though, we have historical methods. This is all very subjective, and uses a broad view to decide what was really going on. We all 'know' that most riders in the pro peloton were charging in the 90s (how?), and that alone is reason enough for some of us to think that it's true that Lance cheated. End of.

    But as anyone who watched QI knows, this kind of truth is a bit wobbly sometimes. In the absence of facts, we use our imaginations to fill in the gaps and create the truth.

    Where am I going with this? I guess that, unless LA comes out and says he cheated, this debate will continue depending on which version of the truth you want to use.

    Personally, watching him ride - and behaving like a complete c*** - is always thrilling, and whether or not he cheated isn't as important to me as it is to some of you. I'd be surprised if he didn't dope but only because I hold the belief that that's how it was done in the 90s.
    You just have to ride like you never have to breathe again.

    Manchester Wheelers
  • OllyBianchi
    OllyBianchi Posts: 89
    Moray Gub wrote:
    OllyBianchi wrote:
    leguape wrote:
    Timoid. wrote:
    DaveyL wrote:
    Ullrich missed two of the seven due to injuries in the warm up races, Hamilton's papier maiche collarbones took him out of two when he would have been a threat, Valverde should have won in '05 if he hadn't damaged his knee, Zulle should have beaten him in '99 but his team forgot about the Passage Du Gois. Lance never crashed early season, never damaged himself training, never got caught in a stupid crash in the first week and never got amubushed.

    Eh Valverde would have won in 05 ? Deary me .............he was already three minutes down when he won at Courchevel I would be interested to find out how he would have taken those minutes back from Lance who was a better climber and far superior time trialler . As for Zulle in 99 i think Lance would have whupped him even without the passage de gois crash, as Phil Ligget famously said as Lance blew all away on the climb to Sestrieres '' if you can win in the mountains and win in the time trials then theres not much else to winning the TDF'' . As for Ullrich and Chimera Boy you dont honestly think either were a threat other than in 03 do you ? Methinks you are letting your obvious dislike of Lance play with your mind into rewriting history here.

    cheers
    MG

    I have a great deal of respect for his achievements - as I said - dope alone doesn't win races and it can't make you smart, only strong.
    I was trying to highlight the fallacy that he was a steamroller who crushed all before him on all 7 tour wins - his challengers managed to self destruct every year, occasionally before they'd even got to the tour. After all, we still don't know what a fully fit Jan could have done, because we never actually saw that match up.
    He was better than his rivals but not to the extent that it seems - his rivals managed to find new and innovative ways of not giving him a proper race every year.
  • dave_1
    dave_1 Posts: 9,512
    How come this not so new book has generated 6 or 7 pages of comment in 2 days..?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKBacb2V ... ata_player
  • calvjones
    calvjones Posts: 3,850
    Dave_1 wrote:
    How come this not so new book has generated 6 or 7 pages of comment in 2 days..?

    'Cos its about Lance feckin Armstrong and we're all pathetically in thrall to the nearest thing the sport has had to a tdf personality in recent decades?
    ___________________

    Strava is not Zen.
  • calvjones
    calvjones Posts: 3,850
    Dave_1 wrote:
    How come this not so new book has generated 6 or 7 pages of comment in 2 days..?

    'Cos its about Lance feckin Armstrong and we're all pathetically in thrall to the nearest thing the sport has had to a tdf personality in recent decades?
    ___________________

    Strava is not Zen.
  • dave_1
    dave_1 Posts: 9,512
    calvjones wrote:
    Dave_1 wrote:
    How come this not so new book has generated 6 or 7 pages of comment in 2 days..?

    'Cos its about Lance feckin Armstrong and we're all pathetically in thrall to the nearest thing the sport has had to a tdf personality in recent decades?

    Lance A never gives interviews anymore...think he is too scared, his words will be twisted too. You don't win 7 TDFs in a row without making enemies
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKBacb2V ... ata_player
  • Arkibal
    Arkibal Posts: 850
    Why should he give any interwiews???
    He is not involved with cycling anymore!!! He has retired, Discovery team disbanded, no need for him to comment on cycling that is in a chaos at the moment, where he has no ties anymore.
    He gives plenty interwiews about cancer though, surprising that it gets unnoticed.....
    Time to move on fellas...
  • flattythehurdler
    flattythehurdler Posts: 2,314
    Slightly OTT, but what has surprised me in the past two years is just how much a blood transfusion can transform a performance over a stage. Floyd, and the Vino rode like supermen when blood doping. The difference was absolutely remarkable. They tore apart the peleton like noone has since.....??
    Dan
  • iainf72
    iainf72 Posts: 15,784
    flattythehurdler wrote:
    They tore apart the peleton like noone has since.....??

    Like, being in breaks and working all day and then managing to ride off the front and hold the race off?
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • mangaman
    mangaman Posts: 704
    Floyd, and the Vino rode like supermen when blood doping

    Floyd failed a testosterone test - I'm not sure he has been caught blood doping (unless I've missed something)
  • timoid.
    timoid. Posts: 3,133
    mangaman wrote:
    Floyd, and the Vino rode like supermen when blood doping

    Floyd failed a testosterone test - I'm not sure he has been caught blood doping (unless I've missed something)

    The theory was that the blood was treated with rone and other goodies. The Dr got his quantities wrong.
    It's a little like wrestling a gorilla. You don't quit when you're tired. You quit when the gorilla is tired.
  • timoid.
    timoid. Posts: 3,133
    iainf72 wrote:
    flattythehurdler wrote:
    They tore apart the peleton like noone has since.....??

    Like, being in breaks and working all day and then managing to ride off the front and hold the race off?


    I'm slow today. Enlighten me. Chinny?
    It's a little like wrestling a gorilla. You don't quit when you're tired. You quit when the gorilla is tired.
  • iainf72
    iainf72 Posts: 15,784
    Timoid. wrote:
    iainf72 wrote:
    flattythehurdler wrote:
    They tore apart the peleton like noone has since.....??

    Like, being in breaks and working all day and then managing to ride off the front and hold the race off?


    I'm slow today. Enlighten me. Chinny?

    Devolder
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • afx237vi
    afx237vi Posts: 12,630
    Timoid. wrote:
    iainf72 wrote:
    flattythehurdler wrote:
    They tore apart the peleton like noone has since.....??

    Like, being in breaks and working all day and then managing to ride off the front and hold the race off?


    I'm slow today. Enlighten me. Chinny?

    Devolder?
  • timoid.
    timoid. Posts: 3,133
    Twice told.
    It's a little like wrestling a gorilla. You don't quit when you're tired. You quit when the gorilla is tired.
  • flattythehurdler
    flattythehurdler Posts: 2,314
    Timoid. wrote:
    iainf72 wrote:
    flattythehurdler wrote:
    They tore apart the peleton like noone has since.....??

    Like, being in breaks and working all day and then managing to ride off the front and hold the race off?


    I'm slow today. Enlighten me. Chinny?


    Sounds like a fruit bars with eyes quote
    Dan
  • DaveyL
    DaveyL Posts: 5,167
    Timoid. wrote:
    mangaman wrote:
    Floyd, and the Vino rode like supermen when blood doping

    Floyd failed a testosterone test - I'm not sure he has been caught blood doping (unless I've missed something)

    The theory was that the blood was treated with rone and other goodies. The Dr got his quantities wrong.

    It's possible, as I seem to remember from the longitudinal study, that his hematocrit seemed to go up quite dramatically at points during the Tour. It's also conceivable that he just got some testosterone and they got the quantities wrong there.

    I'd have thought it'd be quite difficult to transufse in blood with other goodies already charged - far too easy to get things wrong, and you'd need to have several doses available to tailor it to the cyclist's current levels. I mean, say you had an 800 mL packet of cells with (I don't know) the equivalent of 50 mg of testosterone, and your rider needed all 800 mL but 50 mg of testosterone would put him over the limit. You'd then instead need an 800 mL packet with 25 mg of testosterone. Better just to adminsiter different drugs separately, I'd have thought.

    Still, that's what they might have done. If so, they deserve to be caught on grounds of stupidity alone...
    Le Blaireau (1)
  • Kléber
    Kléber Posts: 6,842
    DaveyL wrote:
    they deserve to be caught on grounds of stupidity alone...
    Most criminals are caught because they do something stupid! It's not when the dastardly plan works that they end up in custody...
  • DaveyL
    DaveyL Posts: 5,167
    Yeah, that was always the way with Columbo. And Scooby Doo.
    Le Blaireau (1)
  • weedy1
    weedy1 Posts: 143
    Someone else in another thread suggested Landis got caught out 'cos he tapped some blood off when he was doping with test, then stopped so no positive, banged the blood back in uh oh forgot he was on the juice on that pint. So he didn't dope with test at the time he was caught but it was from previous blood taken when his levels were high.
  • iainf72
    iainf72 Posts: 15,784
    I believe all the "oooh, it was from a blood transfusion" theories have been discounted by people who know what they're talking about.

    I most likely scenario was he left the patch on for too long. Simple and stupid.
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • DaveyL
    DaveyL Posts: 5,167
    Yes. I believe that's known as Occam's Razor (not the one cyclists use to shave their legs) :D
    Le Blaireau (1)
  • flattythehurdler
    flattythehurdler Posts: 2,314
    iainf72 wrote:
    I believe all the "oooh, it was from a blood transfusion" theories have been discounted by people who know what they're talking about.

    I most likely scenario was he left the patch on for too long. Simple and stupid.

    Without a longitudinal analysis, it would be impossible to state this. Feckin' remarkable effort if it was only a testosterone patch that's for sure.
    Dan
  • DaveyL
    DaveyL Posts: 5,167
    They went back and did a longitudinal study; I am sure the results came out during the CAS hearing. It's SOP in these cases.

    As many people have alluded to, it really wasn't such a remarkable effort. I mean, it was a great ride by Lanids, but not in the same category, in my opinion, as Basso smiling his way up the Mortirolo etc. A combination of poor riding/tactics by other teams in part helped Landis's effort succeed. But make no mistake, he doped.
    Le Blaireau (1)
  • DaveyL
    DaveyL Posts: 5,167
    I meant to add - the longitudinal study did show his hematocrit going up and down during the Tour, but this cannot be proof that he blood doped with testosterone treated blood, or whether instead he blood doped AND took tesosterone. It would just seem to me to be much simpler and less riskier to take each product individually.
    Le Blaireau (1)
  • flattythehurdler
    flattythehurdler Posts: 2,314
    Given that his off the record recollection was of his mentor's refridgerated pannier bags, blood transfusion must have been something he had a little knowledge of.
    Dan
  • flattythehurdler
    flattythehurdler Posts: 2,314
    The othet thing about Basso is that he may have been one of those people who was actually grimacing rather than smiling. He seemed to smile his way up the alpe in 2004(?) when a turbo charged lance blasted past him like an alien being.
    Dan
  • iainf72
    iainf72 Posts: 15,784
    flattythehurdler wrote:

    Without a longitudinal analysis, it would be impossible to state this. Feckin' remarkable effort if it was only a testosterone patch that's for sure.

    I didn't say he didn't use a transfusion. But the transfusion would not account for the testosterone.
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.

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