From Lance to Landis
Comments
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I feel quite tested right now!Pictures are better than words because some words are big and hard to understand.
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Robmanic1 wrote:It still remains that LA was THE most tested athlete in the world and, whilst there are those who will always want to beleive he was guilty , I for one am happy to believe he was simply the best TDF rider ever! We've all seen the advert where he's ask what he's on, and replies "I'm on my bike 7 days a week, what are you on?", that's the picture I want to believe, the one of him atop Alpe d'Hez in the snow on a training ride. The suspicion will never go away, but as an eternal optimist, I continue to view him as someone who commited himself to focusing on one goal so intently that he simply had no equal.
Has anyone read Landis' book? I'm halfway through it and am finding it a fascinating read, any views in this?
I must admit I agree with you. I don't know a vast amount on the subject however what I do know is I have never seen any proof or heard of anyone that has concrete proof that Lance has doped. There are many things that may suggest he has, like the fact pretty much all his competitors doped however, if he was clean, what could he have done about this? He is in a no-win situation. I will believe in his honesty and until it is proved that he has doped I will believe that what he has achieved can be done clean. It is just sad that people seem so keen that he is found to have doped.
Lance being clean is a great thing for cycling and yet people seem to not want it.0 -
Ben, you are an oasis in a desert of scepticism, having had my entusiasm for all things bike renewed, I'm off to tread the lofty mountains of Lincolnshire with renewed aplomb. Chapeau!Pictures are better than words because some words are big and hard to understand.
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andyp wrote:
But he wasn't. That's the problem because some day it's all going to come out and he'll be revealed as a liar and a fraud. Which won't be good for cycling.BenBlyth wrote:Lance being clean is a great thing for cycling and yet people seem to not want it.
Do you really think that day will ever come? What new evidence could come out and change the minds of the people who still think he rode clean?
We've had years and years of circumstantial evidence and accusations from ex-employees, ex-team-mates, the whole l'Equipe saga, the EPO in the 1999 samples - what else could possibly convince the people who don't want to doubt him? The only thing would be a confession, and that's NEVER gonna happen.
Cycling has moved on. New riders, new targets. The truth will never fully come out. At least not from LA's lips.
PS, I do find it funny that the only two "believers" in this thread have a combined post total of 45. The longer you stick around, the more cynical you get!0 -
BenBlyth wrote:Robmanic1 wrote:It still remains that LA was THE most tested athlete in the world and, whilst there are those who will always want to beleive he was guilty , I for one am happy to believe he was simply the best TDF rider ever! We've all seen the advert where he's ask what he's on, and replies "I'm on my bike 7 days a week, what are you on?", that's the picture I want to believe, the one of him atop Alpe d'Hez in the snow on a training ride. The suspicion will never go away, but as an eternal optimist, I continue to view him as someone who commited himself to focusing on one goal so intently that he simply had no equal.
Has anyone read Landis' book? I'm halfway through it and am finding it a fascinating read, any views in this?
I must admit I agree with you. I don't know a vast amount on the subject however what I do know is I have never seen any proof or heard of anyone that has concrete proof that Lance has doped. There are many things that may suggest he has, like the fact pretty much all his competitors doped however, if he was clean, what could he have done about this? He is in a no-win situation. I will believe in his honesty and until it is proved that he has doped I will believe that what he has achieved can be done clean. It is just sad that people seem so keen that he is found to have doped.
Lance being clean is a great thing for cycling and yet people seem to not want it.
My dear fellow - cycling fans are obsessed by three things.
1: Talking about the past
2: Doping
3: Belgium
Talking about Lance all day means that cycing fans can talk about things which happened 10 years ago, can speculate about doping to their hearts' content and because he wasn't from Belgium he must be evil anyway.
I mean, after Lance came along all these people started buying bikes and joining clubs. Most of them thought 531 were just numbers, don't know what a Flying Gate is and have never done a long 31 on the E489(a) in the rain.
The sooner Lance gets slung in jail so they can all throw away their Treks and take their enthuaism and money away to spoil another niche the better.0 -
I think that there are enough people out there ready to debunk the myth that one day they'll persuade someone very close to LA will reveal all. Either that or the US authorities will get him.afx237vi wrote:Do you really think that day will ever come? What new evidence could come out and change the minds of the people who still think he rode clean?
We've had years and years of circumstantial evidence and accusations from ex-employees, ex-team-mates, the whole l'Equipe saga, the EPO in the 1999 samples - what else could possibly convince the people who don't want to doubt him? The only thing would be a confession, and that's NEVER gonna happen.
Cycling has moved on. New riders, new targets. The truth will never fully come out. At least not from LA's lips.
!0 -
But he wasn't. That's the problem because some day it's all going to come out and he'll be revealed as a liar and a fraud. Which won't be good for cycling.[/quote]
You claim he wasn't clean , what have you got to back this statement up?
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OllyBianchi: it's not just Lance. Many of us have watched the sport since the days when Armstrong was wearing nappies but since 1990/1991 we've seen countless results distorted by EPO and blood doping. Many have now been caught and exposed, some even forced into confessing what they've done.
All in all it means that many results from recent years, well you can't be sure if the difference between first and second was a few seconds of pain, a few months of training or just a few millilitres of blood/hormones.0 -
Kléber wrote:OllyBianchi: it's not just Lance. Many of us have watched the sport since the days when Armstrong was wearing nappies but since 1990/1991 we've seen countless results distorted by EPO and blood doping. Many have now been caught and exposed, some even forced into confessing what they've done.
All in all it means that many results from recent years, well you can't be sure if the difference between first and second was a few seconds of pain, a few months of training or just a few millilitres of blood/hormones.
I have also been watching cycling since I as long as I can remember (long long pre Lance) - racing father saw to that - so I wasn't being entirely serious. But I'm also a motor racing fan and despite the fact that Michael Schumacher was just as big a cheat as Lance may have been - probably won all 7 titles with an illegal car - yet motor racing fans have forgotten him - he's yesterday's man and old news now he's gone. Raking over the past does seem to be something cyclists enjoy more than fans of other, equally tainted, sports do.0 -
afx237vi wrote:andyp wrote:
But he wasn't. That's the problem because some day it's all going to come out and he'll be revealed as a liar and a fraud. Which won't be good for cycling.BenBlyth wrote:Lance being clean is a great thing for cycling and yet people seem to not want it.
Do you really think that day will ever come? What new evidence could come out and change the minds of the people who still think he rode clean?
We've had years and years of circumstantial evidence and accusations from ex-employees, ex-team-mates, the whole l'Equipe saga, the EPO in the 1999 samples - what else could possibly convince the people who don't want to doubt him? The only thing would be a confession, and that's NEVER gonna happen.
Cycling has moved on. New riders, new targets. The truth will never fully come out. At least not from LA's lips.
PS, I do find it funny that the only two "believers" in this thread have a combined post total of 45. The longer you stick around, the more cynical you get!
You should add the words "miserable" and "negative " people who hang out on the Race section who are only happy when they are putting the boot in, Don't you?
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Where do you want to start?fto-si wrote:You claim he wasn't clean , what have you got to back this statement up?
The long association with Dr Michele Ferrari? The traces of EPO in urine samples taken from the 1999 Tour? The footage of USPS staff dumping medical waste in a bin during the 2001 Tour? The SCA case and the transcript between Frankie Andreu and Jonathan Vaughters? The bullying and threatening of people who speak out against him? The bullying of riders speaking out in favour of a clean sport?
I''m always reminded of the expression that there are none so blind as those that cannot see when we get to this topic.0 -
That's the pot calling the kettle black!Mike Willcox wrote:You should add the words "miserable" and "negative " people who hang out on the Race section who are only happy when they are putting the boot in, Don't you?0 -
andyp wrote:
The long association with Dr Michele Ferrari? The traces of EPO in urine samples taken from the 1999 Tour? The footage of USPS staff dumping medical waste in a bin during the 2001 Tour? The SCA case and the transcript between Frankie Andreu and Jonathan Vaughters? The bullying and threatening of people who speak out against him? The bullying of riders speaking out in favour of a clean sport?
I''m always reminded of the expression that there are none so blind as those that cannot see when we get to this topic.
Thanks for that, just intrigued me as to why alot of people presume he wasn't clean although he has never been punished.
I can't see what the association with Dr Ferrari ( I have read of his reputation but is there any hard proof that he and LA where up to anything wrong? or is the association enough?), the footage ( does anyone know what was actually being dumped and can it be directly linked to LA?) or any bullying or threatening actually proves though.
I admit I don't know as much about all this as some but in my opinion alot of the so called evidence proves very little.0 -
The truth be damned. Authors write books to make money and will tell you whatever
they think will help sell copy. Fact or fiction or a little of both. What I find hard to believe
is that so many people seem to "care", for lack of a better word, one way or another.
Reminds me a lot of some poeples obessions with movie stars. They just have to know, or at least think they know all about this person, for some strange reason. They probably
feel that the more they know about a person, or think they know, the more this person becomes their "friend".
Dennis Noward0 -
There have been suggestions recently, in the documents provided to a US court as part of the legal proceedings in the Lemond v Trek dispute, that Armstrong may have bribed the then president (and current vice-president) of the UCI, Hein Verbruggen, to cover up details of failed drugs tests.fto-si wrote:
Thanks for that, just intrigued me as to why alot of people presume he wasn't clean although he has never been punished.
Ferrari came to prominence after working with Professor Francesco Conconi to help Francesco Moser in his successful attempt on the Hour Record in 1985. He then moved on to coaching teams and later riders (including Armstrong) and was convicted of supplying riders with doping products in an Italian court in 2004. This conviction was turned over on appeal due to a technicality related to the statute of limitations. Armstrong had a coaching relationship with Chris Carmichael so it's never been clear why he also used Ferrari but it is believed to be because Ferrari was the best doping doctor going. The best you can say about Armstrong's long association with Ferrari is that it was ill advised.fto-si wrote:I can't see what the association with Dr Ferrari ( I have read of his reputation but is there any hard proof that he and LA where up to anything wrong? or is the association enough?), the footage ( does anyone know what was actually being dumped and can it be directly linked to LA?) or any bullying or threatening actually proves though.
I admit I don't know as much about all this as some but in my opinion alot of the so called evidence proves very little.
The medical waste dumped in bin in a roadside layby contained empty Activogin a blood product derived from calves blood. It's believed to have similar effects to EPO.0 -
Cynics, cynics, cynics ... all you people who've been riding for years who all know the price of everything and the value of nothing!
The way you guys seem to think .... it strikes me that no-one can now ever win anything in cycling without automatically being a 'cheat' in your eyes!
People NEED a hero.
It's people like LA who in various sports have convinced tens or maybe hundreds of thousands of people to get off their backsides and ride a bike or do some other sport.
He may be guilty ... who knows ... but until it's proven he's my hero.
It's great to be .....0 -
pjh wrote:Cynics, cynics, cynics ... all you people who've been riding for years who all know the price of everything and the value of nothing!
The way you guys seem to think .... it strikes me that no-one can now ever win anything in cycling without automatically being a 'cheat' in your eyes!
People NEED a hero.
It's people like LA who in various sports have convinced tens or maybe hundreds of thousands of people to get off their backsides and ride a bike or do some other sport.
He may be guilty ... who knows ... but until it's proven he's my hero.
Well said0 -
Do u know what, Cyclists turning against cyclists is my biggest bug bear... i can't believe someone wrote about people who only got into cycling in the lance years, trying to insinuate that maybe they might not be a true, fully badged, miserable old school club runner...
WHO CARES!!!!
I love pro cycling, and i love the drama, and i love the history, i hate the drugs, but love discussing the situation with other like minded people. Yeah there are a lot of us on here that talk about Lance, but we're mainly the ones who had our views shattered (apart from Chemical Ali Iain ofcourse who knew all along
)
But if you wanna give the miserable trophy out, it goes guys like you. I remember going to my first cpl of club runs, and old boy cyclists are THE WORST for welcoming new guys to their merry or not, band of brothers.
Everyone who rides a bike is a cyclist, and we should praise all for getting out there!!
And remember, the sport is in state it is from people not caring, brushing it under the carpet, not wanting the hurt a sport that was damaging itself all the time.... so debate away!!0 -
fto-si wrote:pjh wrote:Cynics, cynics, cynics ... all you people who've been riding for years who all know the price of everything and the value of nothing!
The way you guys seem to think .... it strikes me that no-one can now ever win anything in cycling without automatically being a 'cheat' in your eyes!
People NEED a hero.
It's people like LA who in various sports have convinced tens or maybe hundreds of thousands of people to get off their backsides and ride a bike or do some other sport.
He may be guilty ... who knows ... but until it's proven he's my hero.
Well said
Let me get this straight. Lance is your "hero" because he could ride a bike faster than everyone. How does this make him a hero?? I ask this because I'd like to know what
he ever did for you?? What about your family?? You remember them, they raised you and
have probably helped you all these years. Are they not worthy of being heroes?? What about your friends who will come to your aid if you need it?? Try this. When you break
down many miles from nowhere make two phone calls, one to Lance and one to family
or friends, then wait and see who shows up first. That would be my heroes.
Dennis Noward0 -
If you look at the definition of the word hero you will see why he is a hero to many.
1. a man of distinguished courage or ability, admired for his brave deeds and noble qualities.
2. a person who, in the opinion of others, has heroic qualities or has performed a heroic act and is regarded as a model or ideal: He was a local hero when he saved the drowning child.0 -
Dennis ... don't be a numpty.
I didn't say he was my 'only' hero ... nor did I say that my family weren't also heroes to me. Why do you jump to such ridiculous conclusions!
Why is Lance my hero?
Because;
1. He overcame cancer to rise to the pinnacle of sport (perhaps even to conquer what some say is the toughest sporting challenge on the planet .... the TdF)
2. Because he showed that even someone as ill as that can rise again ... and gave hope to thousands maybe hundreds of thousands of cancer sufferers around the world
3. Because he displayed the single minded determination to get better & to beat everyone else
4. Because he won the TdF more times than any other person
5. Because he took on the European/French snobbery that dominates the TdF (and won 7 times)
6. Because he's raised millions for good causes
Need any more reasons?
It's great to be .....0 -
He was actually my hero, till last year when i learnt and read a whole bunch of stuff about the situation. Now i find it difficult to watch my footage of him. BUT he is still a hero in the eyes of many, and for his work for Cancer he deserves that title in that field.0
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fto-si wrote:If you look at the definition of the word hero you will see why he is a hero to many.
1. a man of distinguished courage or ability, admired for his brave deeds and noble qualities.
2. a person who, in the opinion of others, has heroic qualities or has performed a heroic act and is regarded as a model or ideal: He was a local hero when he saved the drowning child.
What heroic act or acts has he performed?? Riding a bike??
What are his noble qualties?? And how would you know?? Do you know him on a personal level??
What "drowning child" has he saved?? Yes, I know I'm being facetious. Still, it begs an
answer.
And his brave deeds?? Is doing your job a brave deed??
Noble qualities?? Sounds like someone I should be bowing down to. You can bow down
to him if you like but I'm not into hero worship.
Dennis Noward0 -
Jeeezzz ... .
All I can say is that if I ever get cancer (pray God I don't) then I will draw on LA's story and attitude and courage and bravery in the hope it gets me through it. (I doubt I'll be getting back on a bike and taking on the world though!)
Let's hear you put a price on the value of that inspiration! :roll:
It's great to be .....0 -
dennisn wrote:fto-si wrote:If you look at the definition of the word hero you will see why he is a hero to many.
1. a man of distinguished courage or ability, admired for his brave deeds and noble qualities.
2. a person who, in the opinion of others, has heroic qualities or has performed a heroic act and is regarded as a model or ideal: He was a local hero when he saved the drowning child.
What heroic act or acts has he performed?? Riding a bike??
What are his noble qualties?? And how would you know?? Do you know him on a personal level??
What "drowning child" has he saved?? Yes, I know I'm being facetious. Still, it begs an
answer.
And his brave deeds?? Is doing your job a brave deed??
Noble qualities?? Sounds like someone I should be bowing down to. You can bow down
to him if you like but I'm not into hero worship.
Dennis Noward
Yeah I suppose you are right, the courage to beat cancer, the ability to win 7 TDFs in a row and the dedication to raising millions in the fight against cancer is nothing out of the ordinary is it.0 -
fto-si wrote:dennisn wrote:fto-si wrote:If you look at the definition of the word hero you will see why he is a hero to many.
1. a man of distinguished courage or ability, admired for his brave deeds and noble qualities.
2. a person who, in the opinion of others, has heroic qualities or has performed a heroic act and is regarded as a model or ideal: He was a local hero when he saved the drowning child.
What heroic act or acts has he performed?? Riding a bike??
What are his noble qualties?? And how would you know?? Do you know him on a personal level??
What "drowning child" has he saved?? Yes, I know I'm being facetious. Still, it begs an
answer.
And his brave deeds?? Is doing your job a brave deed??
Noble qualities?? Sounds like someone I should be bowing down to. You can bow down
to him if you like but I'm not into hero worship.
Dennis Noward
Yeah I suppose you are right, the courage to beat cancer, the ability to win 7 TDFs in a row and the dedication to raising millions in the fight against cancer is nothing out of the ordinary is it.
The courage to beat cancer?? Do you know how many people have done this and are not
called heroes? What makes Lance any different?? Don't mistake the will to live as a kind of courage that only Lance has. The ability to do your job seven years in a row?? What's so special about that?? While raising millions is very laudable, and good publicity, there
are plenty of people out there who dedicate their lives to finding cures for all kinds of
illnesses and don't look for publicity. They just quietly do the best that they can. Then again they are only "ordinary" people doing "ordinary" things. Nothing really useful like
winning bicycle races. Last I heard Lance was a human being and hadn't been promoted
to "GOD" status yet.
Dennis Noward0 -
GroupOfOne MkII wrote:Yes excellent book! An even better read if you've been and stood at the bottom of the Eigerwand and looked up (or looked down out of one of the windows in the face) :shock:
The Beckoning Silence is about the Eiger, and very good too.
I've read the Beckoning Silence and White Spider is on the list. I'm reading Into Thin Air at the moment (about Everest 96 - More doom than mountaineering)
I'm looking for something about the Andes too.
I wonder what the HCT of someone who spends a month near 20,000 is....Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.0 -
pjh wrote:People NEED a hero.
It's people like LA who in various sports have convinced tens or maybe hundreds of thousands of people to get off their backsides and ride a bike or do some other sport.
He may be guilty ... who knows ... but until it's proven he's my hero.
Not to get into a debate, but how would you feel if it was proven?
I prefer to not have any heroes, it's safer that way. Become your own hero.Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.0 -
dennisn wrote:fto-si wrote:dennisn wrote:fto-si wrote:If you look at the definition of the word hero you will see why he is a hero to many.
1. a man of distinguished courage or ability, admired for his brave deeds and noble qualities.
2. a person who, in the opinion of others, has heroic qualities or has performed a heroic act and is regarded as a model or ideal: He was a local hero when he saved the drowning child.
What heroic act or acts has he performed?? Riding a bike??
What are his noble qualties?? And how would you know?? Do you know him on a personal level??
What "drowning child" has he saved?? Yes, I know I'm being facetious. Still, it begs an
answer.
And his brave deeds?? Is doing your job a brave deed??
Noble qualities?? Sounds like someone I should be bowing down to. You can bow down
to him if you like but I'm not into hero worship.
Dennis Noward
Yeah I suppose you are right, the courage to beat cancer, the ability to win 7 TDFs in a row and the dedication to raising millions in the fight against cancer is nothing out of the ordinary is it.
The courage to beat cancer?? Do you know how many people have done this and are not
called heroes? What makes Lance any different?? Don't mistake the will to live as a kind of courage that only Lance has. The ability to do your job seven years in a row?? What's so special about that?? While raising millions is very laudable, and good publicity, there
are plenty of people out there who dedicate their lives to finding cures for all kinds of
illnesses and don't look for publicity. They just quietly do the best that they can. Then again they are only "ordinary" people doing "ordinary" things. Nothing really useful like
winning bicycle races. Last I heard Lance was a human being and hadn't been promoted
to "GOD" status yet.
Dennis Noward
No I dont have an exact count at this present time of how many people have defeated cancer, sorry that's so careless of me. But everyone who has deserves credit and don't presume that I think he is the only one with the ability to do it. Did I say LA was any different? Answer is NO.
The ability to win 7 TDFs in succession is something out of the ordinary, if you can't see that then you are a bigger idiot than i first thought.
So he is working hard to raise millions to fight cancer just for publicity, I am so stupid for missing that.
You are right, he hasn't been promoted to GOD status and for your information no one claimed that he was.
The simple fact is that people admire him for things he has achieved be it sporting or otherwise. You can't change that.0
