Out of the saddle technique

nolf

When going through training books you see plenty of info on how to pedal in the saddle properly, which I try and use (scraping your foot and pushing knees forward),

But I can find pretty much no advice on how to go out of the saddle properly,
how far forward should your body be?
Pedalling technique?
I find my lower back seems to wiggle around when out of the saddle- is this good or bad?

Anyone got any answers to these or general info on out of the saddle riding?

chrisw12

Do you think it makes any difference at all?

I mean, isn't it a kind of natural thing that we will all do differently anyway, a bit like walking.

Obviously if your swaying like a drunk Welsh rugby fan then you'll soon notice that something is wrong when the energy runs out.

dennisn

For what it's worth climbing is best done with your bodies center of gravity(about 1/3
to 1/2 the distance from your waist to your neck) over the pedal axels at the 9 or 10 o'clock foward position. Your stem needs to be long enough to put you comfortably
in this position. To long and you're too far out front. To short and you will be to far rearward when standing. Either way you lose power. This being a very, very brief
take(mine) on an article by Keith Bontrager on bike fit.

Dennis Noward

oldwelshman

dennisn wrote:

For what it's worth climbing is best done with your bodies center of gravity(about 1/3
to 1/2 the distance from your waist to your neck) over the pedal axels at the 9 or 10 o'clock foward position. Your stem needs to be long enough to put you comfortably
in this position. To long and you're too far out front. To short and you will be to far rearward when standing. Either way you lose power. This being a very, very brief
take(mine) on an article by Keith Bontrager on bike fit.

Dennis Noward

How would you measure this as you are balls out hanging on climbing in a race?
Some riders are fatter than others and they will probably all have different centres of gravity. Mine is currently quite close to the floor courtesy of too many beers caused by Wales winning the gran slam
As Chris says its more of a natural thing.
If you get out of the saddle on a climb and dont change to harder gear, naturally you will be more upright and "dancing" on the pedals with arms straight.
If your on a climb and the gradient increases and you get out of the saddle and change up, your likely to find yourself more over the front wheel and pulling on the bars with bent arms.
This is the same as if some one sprints off on the flat, it is natural to get change up a gear, get out of the saddle, wiggle your arse and pedal like mad to catch up. Not much thinking and measuring of centre of gravity and wonderring where you are in respect to pedal cranks
The human body and brain are quite clever when it comes to working out most effective techniques, and it is mostly a natural evolution.

dennisn

oldwelshman wrote:

dennisn wrote:

For what it's worth climbing is best done with your bodies center of gravity(about 1/3
to 1/2 the distance from your waist to your neck) over the pedal axels at the 9 or 10 o'clock foward position. Your stem needs to be long enough to put you comfortably
in this position. To long and you're too far out front. To short and you will be to far rearward when standing. Either way you lose power. This being a very, very brief
take(mine) on an article by Keith Bontrager on bike fit.

Dennis Noward

How would you measure this as you are balls out hanging on climbing in a race?
Some riders are fatter than others and they will probably all have different centres of gravity. Mine is currently quite close to the floor courtesy of too many beers caused by Wales winning the gran slam
As Chris says its more of a natural thing.
If you get out of the saddle on a climb and dont change to harder gear, naturally you will be more upright and "dancing" on the pedals with arms straight.
If your on a climb and the gradient increases and you get out of the saddle and change up, your likely to find yourself more over the front wheel and pulling on the bars with bent arms.
This is the same as if some one sprints off on the flat, it is natural to get change up a gear, get out of the saddle, wiggle your ars* and pedal like mad to catch up. Not much thinking and measuring of centre of gravity and wonderring where you are in respect to pedal cranks
The human body and brain are quite clever when it comes to working out most effective techniques, and it is mostly a natural evolution.

I think the point in Bontragers article was that the optimum out of saddle climbing
position is to put your center of gravity(which can be determined with little difficulty or
so he says) right on top of the pedals as they start their downward stroke. According to
Keith this is a function of stem length. To long a stem and your CG will be to far foward
and vice versa. That's why the right stem length is critical to climbers. They want all their weight on the pedal at the right moment and correct CG position helps with this.

Dennis Noward

MegaCycle

I always change up a couple of gears when standing out of the saddle too. If you are in too low a gear there won't be enough resistance so you'll become unstable.

nolf

So just make sure i'm making the most of my weight by putting it above the pedal axis when it's at the 9/10 o clock position, thats probably what i usually do.

I was just thinking about sprints and different types of out of the saddle climbing as well (I find my cadence drops on climbs irrespective of whether im in or out of the saddle).
For sprints I'm thinking about how to get really low to become more aerodynamic and yet still get the power out. ATM I max out at 35mphish and can't get any faster than that.

Also oldwelshman, althugh yes your body will often find a natural position, when pedalling in the saddle it takes a certain effort to get your body into routines- e.g you don't naturally pedal at 100rpm, but I do after training my mind and body to do so.
I'm hoping to get my body into a similar routine with out of the saddle pedalling, to train my body to use the most efficient form automatically.

Doom

MegaCycle wrote:

I always change up a couple of gears when standing out of the saddle too. If you are in too low a gear there won't be enough resistance so you'll become unstable.

DANGER ALERT

This used to be my philosophy for general riding as my generous body proportions helped drive through the pedal stroke. Having done several trips to the Alps now I find that in order to aid recovery on the longer climbs I need to stay in the same gear at a similar cadence rather than work the legs harder by changing down. This rests some of the muscles that I use when sitting and keeps me fresher for longer. Learnt a very hard lesson on the Courcheval which at 27km long nearly did me in.

Having said that what works for me may not work for you or anyone else.

GeorgeShaw

I need to stay in the same gear at a similar cadence rather than work the legs harder by changing down.

I'm only a newbie, and it may depend on the individual, but I'd agree with that, especially on longer climbs. It's easy to get used to honking over a short hill in a higher gear, but on a long climb you could blow yourself out quite quickly.

I've added some longer out-of-the-saddle climbs to my weekly routine, to teach my legs how to pedal circles while standing, and to learn what effort and cadence I can sustain for several minutes. It seems to be working.

chrisw12

What's that, 5 posts all with different answers and techniques!

Nolf: I don't get this line:- '...e.g you don't naturally pedal at 100rpm, but I do after training my mind and body to do so. '

If you don't naturally ride at 100rpm then why are you training you body to do something un-natural to it?

oldwelshman

Everyone has their own natural cadence and the more you ride the more natural it becomes.
There is no "better way" to climb and no one particular method is more efficient than the other, thats a fact.
It is purely an individual thing and some things work better for some than others.
You can try other methods and I do think it is a good idea to try all methods to see what your best at.
We are all built differently and sprinters will always be sprinters and climbers will always be climbers, due to genetics though you can improve a bit in one or the other with training but a true climber will never be a sprinter and a true sprinter will never become a climber.
Most of us seem to fall in between somewhere Thats probably why there are so many differences in our styles of riding.

nolf

If there is no proper research on the subject like in the saddle pedalling then I'll just keep experimenting with position on the bike etc and see how that helps.

I'm allright at judging effort over distance although I tend to go too hard at the bottom as I try to drop my mates and then dragging myself over the top solo
On my own I like to stay tempo all the way up though.

Also my center of gravity is probably a bit lower than that as well, not so much as beer as more the fact my upper body is so sinewy and my lower so musclular in comparison that it's probably heading down more (put on 2 stone and lost 2 inches on my waist since started cycling 30-28inches)

Haynes

To stay out of the saddle for long periods, climbing relaxed and easy, i have my arms straight, body straight up, weight slightly forward and spin around 70rpm. Standing upright with just enough weight on your hands to allow your feet to dance around on the pedals. I consiously push my hips forward to get really upright.

Putting in maximum effort to attack for short periods etc, arms bent about 45° at the elbow, body bent forward at the hips. Weight over the bars, hunkering down and giving it all youve got. Also tend to use this postion riding a fixie up hill, so your gearing would be relatively high, staying more relaxed and not getting down as low.