Dura-Ace electronic

dennisn

I think that when this comes to market Shimano will sell as many as they can make.
People will just have to have it. Same for Campy. Anyone????

Dennis Noward

redddraggon

It's still Shimano.......

4kicks

Pics of Campag E-Record Prototype half way down the page:

http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum ... &start=135

Personally I think that fell out of the ugly tree and hit every branch on the way down, but will be interesting to see if that slows sales.

In the meantime you can always buy a "PRO" Capmag Record Brifter with a stiffer spring and red logos for a mere 40GBP increase in price. Limited edition of 600..or was that 600,000, one fogets :roll:

redddraggon

4kicks wrote:

Pics of Campag E-Record Prototype half way down the page:

http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum ... &start=135

Personally I think that fell out of the ugly tree and hit every branch on the way down, but will be interesting to see if that slows sales.

In the meantime you can always buy a "PRO" Capmag Record Brifter with a stiffer spring and red logos for a mere 40GBP increase in price. Limited edition of 600..or was that 600,000, one fogets :roll:

I was reading that thread today, and I thought the Ergos looked absolutely hideous...

dennisn

redddraggon wrote:

4kicks wrote:

Pics of Campag E-Record Prototype half way down the page:

http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum ... &start=135

Personally I think that fell out of the ugly tree and hit every branch on the way down, but will be interesting to see if that slows sales.

In the meantime you can always buy a "PRO" Capmag Record Brifter with a stiffer spring and red logos for a mere 40GBP increase in price. Limited edition of 600..or was that 600,000, one fogets :roll:

I was reading that thread today, and I thought the Ergos looked absolutely hideous...

All this does is prove my theory that most people buy stuff because it looks good and
don't even care about function, durabilty, or quality. Bling is the thing. This forum is loaded
with people who talk about things "catching their eye", "really sharp looking", etc.

Dennis Noward

campagsarge

I used to work in the beer business and was trained that people buy with their eyes, which is true. My bro-in-law has an Alfa car. He loves it, even though it spends more time in the garage being fixed than out on the road.

Marketing departments would find it pretty tough if form was dropped over function I would think.

I guess proto-types are just that and are subject to change in form as well as design. The electronic shifters do not look that far away from - dare I say it, Shimano!

If Campag went electronic I wont be rushing out to buy the new gruppo. Although I never thought I would change over to 10 speed when that came out but I have!

Bling is good! Westside!

Smokin Joe

Assuming the kit is reliable, I reckon that electronic will be the norm in the pro peleton. No-one will accept their rivals having an advantage over them, and if that means shaving half a second off the gearshift everyone will demand it.

Obviously the top end amateurs will follow suit, but how far it trickles down to the average club rider will remain to be seen. My bet is that most peoples best bike will be electronic, their training and commuter hacks will stay with cables for a long time to come yet.

Rob Sallnow

redddraggon wrote:

4kicks wrote:

Pics of Campag E-Record Prototype half way down the page:

http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum ... &start=135

Personally I think that fell out of the ugly tree and hit every branch on the way down, but will be interesting to see if that slows sales.

In the meantime you can always buy a "PRO" Capmag Record Brifter with a stiffer spring and red logos for a mere 40GBP increase in price. Limited edition of 600..or was that 600,000, one fogets :roll:

I was reading that thread today, and I thought the Ergos looked absolutely hideous...

Blimey, you're not wrong....perhaps they're more easy to use when on the hoods or something, but I much prefer the current style of carbon lever.

dennisn

Smokin Joe wrote:

Assuming the kit is reliable, I reckon that electronic will be the norm in the pro peleton. No-one will accept their rivals having an advantage over them, and if that means shaving half a second off the gearshift everyone will demand it.

Obviously the top end amateurs will follow suit, but how far it trickles down to the average club rider will remain to be seen. My bet is that most peoples best bike will be electronic, their training and commuter hacks will stay with cables for a long time to come yet.

I think you have something there. My(or should I say my wifes) best car is a Lincoln and
we have truck for all the dirty work. You're right, I don't see 2 Lincoln's in my future.
Then again if I had bunches of disposable income who knows.

Dennis Noward

campagsarge

I am with you there.

Will be interesting to see what price-point the Shimano offering comes in at as well. I wonder how well it would survive a UK winter (or similar climate).

dennisn

campagsarge wrote:

I am with you there.

Will be interesting to see what price-point the Shimano offering comes in at as well. I wonder how well it would survive a UK winter (or similar climate).

Well, one would think that it would have to be pretty weatherproof if they expect
the "pro's" to use it. And by pros I means people who ride in any weather. I assume
that a lot of development money went into this stuff and they will need to sell lots of
the "system" to turn a profit. To me that means selling to lots of everyday people along
with racers.

Dennis Noward

Slow Downcp

dennisn wrote:

I think that when this comes to market Shimano will sell as many as they can make.
People will just have to have it. Same for Campy. Anyone????

Dennis Noward

Yeah, 'cos Mavic cleaned up with their electronic system

dennisn

Slow Downcp wrote:

dennisn wrote:

I think that when this comes to market Shimano will sell as many as they can make.
People will just have to have it. Same for Campy. Anyone????

Dennis Noward

Yeah, 'cos Mavic cleaned up with their electronic system

Remember, the key words were "I" and "think". Now "I" have been known to be an idiot
and "think" is what my brain does less and less of as "I" get older.

Dennis Noward

Smokin Joe

Shimano probably spend more on paperclips than Mavic's annual turnover. Campag are not known for pushing under developed kit onto the market either. Coupled with the advances in electronics over the last fifteen years I would be surprised if the systems from either of the big two were to fail.

Motorcycles carry far more complicated electronic trickery that is just as exposed to the elements as it would be on a bicycle and the manufacturers of those manage to make it reliable.

oldwelshman

personally I cannot see any performance advantage for electronic changers. 0.5 seconds faster? So what, riders never change gear during a sprint so whats the point otf the incres in change speed?
Ok the pro's will have them as they do not have to pay and then when eveyone see's them, the fashion conscious will want them irrespective of cost
Exposed electronic devices and British roads and weather do not go together.
The only way I would ever consider these is if they were the same price as existing changers and had a "mechanical" backup for when the battery runs out, packs up, or electronic circuitry shorts out and changes gear up and down and goes up in smoke

geoff_ss

dennisn wrote:

Slow Downcp wrote:

dennisn wrote:

I think that when this comes to market Shimano will sell as many as they can make.
People will just have to have it. Same for Campy. Anyone????

Dennis Noward

Yeah, 'cos Mavic cleaned up with their electronic system

Remember, the key words were "I" and "think". Now "I" have been known to be an idiot
and "think" is what my brain does less and less of as "I" get older.

Dennis Noward

Dennis, I strongly resemble that remark

I'm a retired electronics design engineer. I've been involved in computers on and off since 1961 and like just about everyone else I ended designing hardware on a PC and writing the software to drive it.

The last thing I want on my pedal cycles is anything electronic that imperils its operation. I used to repair my own cars/motorcycles - now I can't even find the ruddy spark plug on our current car. I find I can't avoid electric windows or central locking on cars and I'm terrified that my beautifully elegant, simple bike suddenly becomes overcomplicated for no reason.

I use a cycle computer only for the distance measurement - I couldn't care less how fast I'm riding or what my average speed is. That's as far as I'm prepared to go. KISS is a philosophy I cherish.

Geoff

aracer

Both systems have also been under development with working versions for several years. Mavic hit the market just as soon as they got the system to work, hence hadn't ironed out the problems.

redddraggon

My opinion on the electronic groups is that they'll be the same as my opinion of deep section tubular wheels.

i.e When they are working it's perfect, but if something goes wrong on the road they might be difficult to fix then and there. So if you're a pro with a support car you're sorted, but if you're on your own and the battery runs out (or you get two punctures in your tubular and you were only carrying one spare) you're slightly screwed.

Just like most of us stick with clinchers for general riding, I think most people (after the novelty wears off) will still want a mechanical groupset.

Tom Butcher

Those new campag levers look horrible - the main reason I switched away from Shimano was because I couldn't get on with the shape of the hoods and now Campag have gone and copied them.

Smokin Joe

Don't underestimate technology, or the willingness of most of us to embrace it once it becomes accepted. All the arguments against electronic gearshifts were used when clipless pedals, indexing, integrated shifters, carbon fibre etc etc first appeared. What we have is good enough, what if it breaks and so on. The same things were doubtless said about pneaumatic tyres and wheels spoked with lengths of wire when they first appeared.

Once electronic systems achieve a level of reliability that people regard as acceptable you will see them filter down the groupsets and become pieces of kit that many people will want to have, at least on one of their bikes. Cables systems have many years of life left in them yet, but I don't think we are that far from seeing club riders beginning to sport electronics on their bikes.

oldwelshman

Smokin Joe wrote:

Don't underestimate technology, or the willingness of most of us to embrace it once it becomes accepted. All the arguments against electronic gearshifts were used when clipless pedals, indexing, integrated shifters, carbon fibre etc etc first appeared. What we have is good enough, what if it breaks and so on. The same things were doubtless said about pneaumatic tyres and wheels spoked with lengths of wire when they first appeared.

Once electronic systems achieve a level of reliability that people regard as acceptable you will see them filter down the groupsets and become pieces of kit that many people will want to have, at least on one of their bikes. Cables systems have many years of life left in them yet, but I don't think we are that far from seeing club riders beginning to sport electronics on their bikes.

So how servicable will they be? What happens if the control unit goes faulty? Is it a FRU or do you buy a new changer?
I would not compare the electronic changer with sti's or clipless pedals as they were both mechanical developments not electronic, as I said I am more worriied about the impact on the electronics caused by our crap roads and weather.
This is more of a luxury item more akin to automatic gearbox in a car, how many of us has one of those? Maybe thats the next development, wouldn't surprise me, auto change dependent on force on pedals or even by cadence slow lower cadence, auto change to lower gear and higer cadence auto change to higher gear. Could be fun in a sprint though

Smokin Joe

oldwelshman wrote:

Smokin Joe wrote:

Don't underestimate technology, or the willingness of most of us to embrace it once it becomes accepted. All the arguments against electronic gearshifts were used when clipless pedals, indexing, integrated shifters, carbon fibre etc etc first appeared. What we have is good enough, what if it breaks and so on. The same things were doubtless said about pneaumatic tyres and wheels spoked with lengths of wire when they first appeared.

Once electronic systems achieve a level of reliability that people regard as acceptable you will see them filter down the groupsets and become pieces of kit that many people will want to have, at least on one of their bikes. Cables systems have many years of life left in them yet, but I don't think we are that far from seeing club riders beginning to sport electronics on their bikes.

So how servicable will they be? What happens if the control unit goes faulty? Is it a FRU or do you buy a new changer?
I would not compare the electronic changer with sti's or clipless pedals as they were both mechanical developments not electronic, as I said I am more worriied about the impact on the electronics caused by our crap roads and weather.
This is more of a luxury item more akin to automatic gearbox in a car, how many of us has one of those? Maybe thats the next development, wouldn't surprise me, auto change dependent on force on pedals or even by cadence slow lower cadence, auto change to lower gear and higer cadence auto change to higher gear. Could be fun in a sprint though

I can rember riding a Honda CB 500 300 miles in torrential rain, most of it at motorway speeds. The Instruments and lights worked perfectly despite being fully exposed, the engine never missed a beat despite the plugs and engine electronics being showered with a high speed spray from the front wheel.

Reliability won't be an issue, the main thing people will look at will be how long a charged battery lasts and how quickly it can be recharged. Bear in mind that 99% of bikes go back in the owners shed or garage every night so a full days use would be enough.

JWSurrey

Of course, those chunky looking battery packs could be a red herring - suppose that, given they both use hollow crankshafts, some bright spark has fitted the large battery housing with a single large capacitor, and the hollow crankshaft has a high efficiency dynamo/piezo-electric device fitted!

For the moment, I'll stick to good old mechanical stuff - especially if it gets cheaper!

giant_man

I just hope it comes, fails and goes again, because as has already been said, there's more to go wrong.

Give me good old fashioned manual operated gears any day. I frankly don't care what Shimano or Campagnolo are trying to perfect, and let's face it they are still trying to do it regardless of what they are bringing out right now, as long as they continue to produce good PROVEN AND RELIABLE manual versions of their groupsets then I'll be happy.

cannonfodder

If the UCI were to ditch their minimum weight limit for bikes - then there would be more pressure from the Pros to design lighter kit rather than electronic gadgetry with the associated batteries.

eh

What are the alleged advantages/USP, I can't work them out?

Just a thought but electronic gears run against the eco-friendly message.

P.S. I've had automatic gears for years :roll:

P.S.S. bet Dennis' Lincoln is automatic they love them over on the other side of the pond.

Tom Butcher

I suppose weight and cleaner faster shifting are the possible advantages.

Some argue that auto shifting would be possible - changing up and down automatically depending on cadence or pressure - personally I think there are too many problems with that to make is practical, as Old Welshman says who wants a sudden gear change 20 metres from the line in a sprint - also things like wanting to ride a big gear out of the saddle then smaller gear sitting back down. I suppose it might be possible to have a manual/auto switch but I can't see that there is any advantage in auto changing anyway when shifting is only a press of a button - so for me that is never going to happen.

LangerDan

Last year, one of the magazines had a "workshop" on racing technique and a point raised was how the good riders shift the bike onto the big ring before they crest a hill, rather than waiting til they get over the top. When electronic shifting was being tested in the Spring Classics last year, one of the pros said it is far quicker and easier to shift up under full load coming over the top of a typical Belgian berg. The time saving was far more significant than that acheived with partial load gear shift on the flat. Over a lumpy course such as Flanders LBL or Amstel it could be significant.

Once people can gain access to the controls, you'll probably see some other functionality creeping in. My guess is that you will be able to trigger pre-programmed sequences from a separate button. For example, if a crit involved a very fast flat section followed by a sharp corner straight into a steep climb, the rider could trigger an immediate move from 53x12 to a 39x18 as a single action. Such pre-programming has been available in motorsport for several years.

dennisn

eh wrote:

What are the alleged advantages/USP, I can't work them out?

Just a thought but electronic gears run against the eco-friendly message.

P.S. I've had automatic gears for years :roll:

P.S.S. bet Dennis' Lincoln is automatic they love them over on the other side of the pond.

Well, you're half right. The Lincoln is an automatic but it's my wifes.

Dennis Noward

giant_man

Bicycle companies, over here and in the States, have been trying automatic shifting since the 1920s/30s, so this latest effort is hardly news really, albeit rather sophisticated I'm sure.

dennisn

Smokin Joe wrote:

Don't underestimate technology, or the willingness of most of us to embrace it once it becomes accepted. All the arguments against electronic gearshifts were used when clipless pedals, indexing, integrated shifters, carbon fibre etc etc first appeared. What we have is good enough, what if it breaks and so on. The same things were doubtless said about pneaumatic tyres and wheels spoked with lengths of wire when they first appeared.

Once electronic systems achieve a level of reliability that people regard as acceptable you will see them filter down the groupsets and become pieces of kit that many people will want to have, at least on one of their bikes. Cables systems have many years of life left in them yet, but I don't think we are that far from seeing club riders beginning to sport electronics on their bikes.

Well put S.J. And after all we are only talking about the actual shifting of the bike. Not the
wheels, frame, pedals, tires, chain, brakes, and the like. These things remain as is, for now and you can still work on them. So to me the worst case scenario is you lose your
shifting ability. While this is not a good thing to have happen, you can still limp home, as
everything else should be OK. As for the advantages of this kind of system, it is limited
only by peoples imagination and I'm sure you will see bunches of devices that will compliment electronic shifting.
There I go opening my big mouth again.
And by the way was that an April fools joke that I fell for about the carbon fiber tape
wrap that you put on your bike to stiffen it up????? I'm thinking it was. Idiot!!!

Dennis Noward