Which carbon wheels???!

wheeler585

Thinking of buying some new tub wheels or carbon clinchers for racing. Got a few in mind corima's areo,cosmic carbone and the sl version,planet x pro 50's,reynolds attack. So was just wondering if anyone races on any of these wheelsets,or could add anymore into the mix to confuse me even more!!

don key

you'll do fine on the cosmics, nuff z

wildmoustache

P-x 50s are good for the cash if you want a relatively light rim (relative to the carbones) and don't mind, or even want, tubs.

all of your shortlist are good ... the issue is how much you want to spend and whether you want tubs or not.

i reckon in straight performace per £, a pair of PX 50s with a DA rear hub and CXray/DT aerlite spokes might be best. very aero, light, and very good hubs for £600ish

mathi

erm , i think you know what i am going to say

wheeler585

Yeah i was kinda leaning more towards the pro 50's not only do they look the mutts nutts but get good reviews and are awsome value for money!! But to confuse things it would be nice to have a clincher as well so i dont have to change my pads everytime i race. Did once try the cosmics and there pretty impressive when you get them rolling!! So its a flip up between the pro 50's cosmic carbon sl's i think. Thanks for the advice!!

wheeler585

Ha!! Now then Dan im sure you know if i had the money i would get myself a pair of lightweights with a click of a finger. You could give me yours for a early birthday present,they would be much appreciated!!!

aracer

Exactly how light are the PX clinchers?

robbarker

It depends how good you are and how much you value what they look like.

If you're either good enough to be in regular solo breaks, or feel the need for flash looking wheels, get some deep section carbon rim jobs with plenty of stickers.

If you are a climbing whippet and do proper road races rather than circuit crits, get something like Lew rims on Tune hubs, or lightweights.

Otherwise, get open pros handbuilt onto your groupset hubs so that you can repair them when you crash.

You'll probably have enough left over for an early season training camp in Lanzarote.

Captain Fagor

If you have £800-£900, my money would be on the Shimano WH-7801 Carbon 50mm.

http://www.rouesartisanales.com/article-4934445.html

Monty Dog

I'd steer clear of the Shimanos until the tubless tyre technology gets sorted - apparently Michelin have shelved their efforts at launching a commercial tubeless product. If you use Swiss-Tech blocks, you can use the same pads for carbon and aluminium rims - or are you really saying that for the hassle of swapping / adjusting brake blocks, you're prepared to carry the extra 200g weight and cost penalty of an HP rim?

wheeler585

Well yeah i proper road race as you put it, but dont think im after some carbon rims just to pose in!! ha I have a pair of shamal ultra's at the mo and there a awsome wheels!! But just feel that a pair or cosmics or planet x wheels will give me that slight advantage. I had a pair of cosmic carbones before and yeah they are quite heavy,but as i said before when you get them rolling they really zipp along!! Also looking at a pair of Reynolds stratus DV's and they get a fantastic write up to.
Do Tubs really out do a carbon clinchers though?. For example would a planet x tub rim out perform a cosmic carbone sl clincher. Its just ive never rode on tubs before and everyone goes on about the superior ride tubs give you,is this true?? Supose you have to out weigh the pro's and cons for tubs and clinchers each one has its good and bad points.

aracer

Monty Dog wrote:

I'd steer clear of the Shimanos until the tubless tyre technology gets sorted - apparently Michelin have shelved their efforts at launching a commercial tubeless product. If you use Swiss-Tech blocks, you can use the same pads for carbon and aluminium rims - or are you really saying that for the hassle of swapping / adjusting brake blocks, you're prepared to carry the extra 200g weight and cost penalty of an HP rim?

The Shimano wheels being suggested aren't the tubeless ones, so that's not an issue.

The issue with swapping between alu and carbon rims is that whatever pads you use they will collect alu swarf from the rims, which then eats the carbon.

wildmoustache

wheeler585 wrote:

Well yeah i proper road race as you put it, but dont think im after some carbon rims just to pose in!! ha I have a pair of shamal ultra's at the mo and there a awsome wheels!! But just feel that a pair or cosmics or planet x wheels will give me that slight advantage. I had a pair of cosmic carbones before and yeah they are quite heavy,but as i said before when you get them rolling they really zipp along!! Also looking at a pair of Reynolds stratus DV's and they get a fantastic write up to.
Do Tubs really out do a carbon clinchers though?. For example would a planet x tub rim out perform a cosmic carbone sl clincher. Its just ive never rode on tubs before and everyone goes on about the superior ride tubs give you,is this true?? Supose you have to out weigh the pro's and cons for tubs and clinchers each one has its good and bad points.

I have some p-xs and have ridden carbones a few times. as you'd expect the latter are noticeably slower to accelerate. I also prefer record or DA hubs to mavic. probably nothing in it aerodynamically.

main issue is tub vs. clinchers. if you want these primarily for road racing i'd be tempted to go tubs as I think the lower rim weight and better handling of a carbon tub would help you more.

wheeler585

Out of the planet x pro 50's and the carbones which of the two impressed you the most?

wildmoustache

wheeler585 wrote:

Out of the planet x pro 50's and the carbones which of the two impressed you the most?

if i was buying again i'd buy carbones for the clincher convenieince ... but if i'd bought clinchers i'd now be saying i want tubs for the light weight and handling!!

... you know how it with bike stuff ...

p-x's are lighter and the better wheel for crits and road races IMO. carbones are the better wheel for sportifs and training.

not much in it for TTs / tri

wheeler585

Ok cool planet x is it then!! Some of the reynolds look good and get good write ups i.e the attacks and stradas.. Just always concerned about the faffing around you get with tubs like all the glueing and changing of pads all the time and the price of tyres.

Was there a problem with the marble effect version planet x wheels,as i recall didnt they have a problem with the breaking surfaces?

wildmoustache

no idea on marble surface hoops.

mine are first generation i suspect ... got them two years ago.

get the rear built up with a decent hub ... campag or shimano or DT

changing the pads is not that much of a hassle on a road bike. in the dry you can get away with just changing the front pads if you teach yourself not to use the rear brake ... i almost never use the rear brake if i'm not riding in the mountains

wheeler585

Supose you cant beat them for the price,plus they look pretty dman nice!! Your not selling yours are you?? ha! Ive got a pair of shamal ultras at the mo and they ride really well v light for a clincher 1350 grams and very stiff!! So sometimes i say to myself is it worth the change,but hey as you said.....you know how it is with bike stuff!! But supose its always nice to have 2 sets of wheels one for training and one for racing. As im riding flanders this weekend for a bit of hardcore race training,so dont think i would like to take a pair of light carbon rims on those cobbles. Thats my excuse for buying a new pair of rims anyway!

giant_man

Why on earth don't you get Reynolds clincher? Would be my choice, there again might not be in your budget.

wheeler585

Yeah there in my price range and have heard good things about them! Have heard that the hubs are fantastic to. Thats the only thing thats stopping me from buying a pair of planet x wheels is the hubs look a tad cheap. Plus i like the idea of alloy rims,have you got a pair of reynolds,if so what model?

aracer

wildmoustache wrote:

I have some p-xs and have ridden carbones a few times. as you'd expect the latter are noticeably slower to accelerate.

You can notice 1% difference? That's about the difference 400g extra in the rims (about how much heavier the pair of Mavics are, assuming it's all at the rim) will make.

wildmoustache

aracer wrote:

wildmoustache wrote:

I have some p-xs and have ridden carbones a few times. as you'd expect the latter are noticeably slower to accelerate.

You can notice 1% difference? That's about the difference 400g extra in the rims (about how much heavier the pair of Mavics are, assuming it's all at the rim) will make.

yes. without question. there's quite a bit the amateur physicists omit from their forum calculations ...

wildmoustache

wheeler585 wrote:

Supose you cant beat them for the price,plus they look pretty dman nice!! Your not selling yours are you?? ha! Ive got a pair of shamal ultras at the mo and they ride really well v light for a clincher 1350 grams and very stiff!! So sometimes i say to myself is it worth the change,but hey as you said.....you know how it is with bike stuff!! But supose its always nice to have 2 sets of wheels one for training and one for racing. As im riding flanders this weekend for a bit of hardcore race training,so dont think i would like to take a pair of light carbon rims on those cobbles. Thats my excuse for buying a new pair of rims anyway!

get the rear built with a record / DA / DT hub and you're in business.

i've got shamals as well ... agree they are nice. not as fast when you really get motoring though, but good climbing/ attacking wheels ... very strong also.

Rich.H

wildmoustache wrote:

p-x's are lighter and the better wheel for crits and road races IMO. carbones are the better wheel for sportifs and training.

not much in it for TTs / tri

I am really keen to understand why you think the carbones are better suited to sportifs - I ask in a positive sense, not to argue

Cheers

Rich

wildmoustache

Rich.H wrote:

wildmoustache wrote:

p-x's are lighter and the better wheel for crits and road races IMO. carbones are the better wheel for sportifs and training.

not much in it for TTs / tri

I am really keen to understand why you think the carbones are better suited to sportifs - I ask in a positive sense, not to argue

Cheers

Rich

i would prefer them for sportves because they are clincher which, for me at least, means it's easier to fix a puncture and much easier to fix several punctures.

also, sportifs don't involve many sharp accelerations ... unlike crits and road racing ... so the higher rim weight is less of an issue. ok, you have to drag a few hundred grams more up the hills but that's not a big deal.

IShaggy

Monty Dog wrote:

If you use Swiss-Tech blocks, you can use the same pads for carbon and aluminium rims..

This is not really recommended as aluminium rims tend to leave small shards of alluminium in the blocks which will then wear the carboin rims down.

How much effort is it to change over brake blocks before a race anyway ? 5 mins max ?

Consider also Hed Jets - carbon fairings over aluminium rims. Pair of 50's weigh in at 1620g according to the site and the price is about the same as the PXs. If you don't like the sound of carbon fairings then keep in mind they are the same fairings used to make the Bontrager Aeolus clinchers, and also Hed have been making them for years with the majority of customers reporting great performance and reliability.

aracer

wildmoustache wrote:

aracer wrote:

wildmoustache wrote:

I have some p-xs and have ridden carbones a few times. as you'd expect the latter are noticeably slower to accelerate.

You can notice 1% difference? That's about the difference 400g extra in the rims (about how much heavier the pair of Mavics are, assuming it's all at the rim) will make.

yes. without question. there's quite a bit the amateur physicists omit from their forum calculations ...

Oops, sorry - yes your right. I'm forgetting the magic which means that bicycle parts don't conform to the same rules as everything else in the universe.

Of course if you try spinning the wheels up on their own you will be able to notice the difference - but by the time you put a rider and a bike on top and are accelerating them as well, if they actually conformed to normal physical laws 1% is the difference they will make. Do you know enough physics to even attempt to explain why I'm wrong, rather than simply asserting it is so based on your placebo effect experience?

wildmoustache

aracer wrote:

wildmoustache wrote:

aracer wrote:

wildmoustache wrote:

I have some p-xs and have ridden carbones a few times. as you'd expect the latter are noticeably slower to accelerate.

You can notice 1% difference? That's about the difference 400g extra in the rims (about how much heavier the pair of Mavics are, assuming it's all at the rim) will make.

yes. without question. there's quite a bit the amateur physicists omit from their forum calculations ...

Oops, sorry - yes your right. I'm forgetting the magic which means that bicycle parts don't conform to the same rules as everything else in the universe.

Of course if you try spinning the wheels up on their own you will be able to notice the difference - but by the time you put a rider and a bike on top and are accelerating them as well, if they actually conformed to normal physical laws 1% is the difference they will make. Do you know enough physics to even attempt to explain why I'm wrong, rather than simply asserting it is so based on your placebo effect experience?

you're forgetting that nothing in the universe conforms to the forum amateur physicists' back of the envelope calculations.

let me guess your calculation ... 1% of 80kg body+bike weight divided by 2 to allow for greater inertia of rotating weight? come on aracer ... let's see your calcuation to make sure it's comprehensive.

aracer

wildmoustache wrote:

you're forgetting that nothing in the universe conforms to the forum amateur physicists' back of the envelope calculations.

Is that right? Well since I actually get paid to do physics, then hopefully at least some of the universe does do what my calculations say it does (I've not yet been sacked for getting it wrong). Actually though, I'd love you to give me an example of somebody doing proper physics on here where the real world (as opposed to cycling mythology) doesn't conform with that - ie you're completely wrong.

let me guess your calculation ... 1% of 80kg body+bike weight divided by 2 to allow for greater inertia of rotating weight? come on aracer ... let's see your calcuation to make sure it's comprehensive.

So you do know some physics then? That's pretty much it - I could go into converting the mass at the perimeter of the wheel into moment of inertia, then converting between force and torque, but the end result is the same, mass at the perimeter of the rim counts double for acceleration, though not for anything else. Hence calculation is that 400g at the rim is worth 800g static, which is 1% of 80kg. Not accurate to more than 1 significant figure, but that surely is good enough for the sake of this argument, since I don't suppose you're any more likely to notice 1.49% difference in acceleration than you are 0.51% difference. So go on then, explain to me why wheels don't actually work like that if that's what you're suggesting.

Or are you just trolling - in which case it is all rather tedious (and you did suggest in the first case that you can feel the difference, which makes you a princess with a pea).

wheeler585

Enough bloody physics,just ride the damn things hard!!

andrewgturnbull

Hi there.

I went through this same thought process earlier this year, and ended up with a pair of cosmic carbones clinchers for road racing and as a spare pair of TT wheels (i've already got deeper dish and disc tubs for my first choice TT wheels).

The cosmics are a structural aluminium rim with a carbon fairing, which adds a little stiffness and a lot of aeroness. This makes them pretty bomb proof when compared with something like a planet x wheel (or a zipp) which is a carbon construction with an aluminium hooked rim bonded to the outside.

The cosmics are a little heavier though, but aracer is correct with his calculations and you will never notice the difference.

Cheers, Andy

ps My cosmics are officially my commuting wheels if the tax man is asking...