Helmet camera sparks death threats in Scotland

number9

alfablue wrote:

iainment wrote:

I don't find all sorts of rationalisations for my actions, the only illegal activity I indulge in is rljing if the way is clear. I have never offered any oother reason for doing this - if it is clear and I don't take anyone's right of way I go, if not I don't. I don't ride on the pavements, wrong way up a one way, wrong side of the road, drunk, without lights etc.

Accuse me of what I actually do, don't invent things and apply them to me.

:twisted:

Pip pip

Ah, thought that would flush you out

My apologies, I could have used maneuver (singular) but I was referring to "those like Ianament" so the plural seemed appropriate. I accept you only commit one illegal maneuver, albeit hundreds or thousands of times, apparently. As for rationalisations, here is a selection:

It doesn't make any difference to them if you obey the rules or not.

"it's the law and must be obeyed" crew actually make me more likely to jump the light as I know it winds them up and generates some quite amusing self righteous bleating from them.

It's safer following the law? What planet are you on? There are countless examples of oppressive laws over the centuries, it may be that observance of this law makes things safer - although I think that is arguable - but just because something is the law is no guarantee of safety for people.

I am old enough to make up my own mind on this issue and realise the personal consequences to me if caught.

I really cannot believe that the aggressive motorists opinion of anything in their way will be changed by my stopping at every red light on my journey.

Even if all cyclists obeyed all road rules/laws there would still be antipathy from motorists because they need someone they think is lower down the pecking order to vent against.
I have been running redlights for more than 40 years, never had an accident crossing lights and feel there are better things for cyclists to do than policing themselves on behalf of motorists.

Even though you are right to say that RLJ is illegal, even though I know I might get pulled by the police and even if my actions mean that cyclists are denigrated by motorists (although I think this is debatable) your attitude would never persuade me to change my mind over my actions.

I don't agree that my actions are selfish

Still no response about cyclists threatening motorists or causing criminal damage though, and I would have thought that these actions are more heinous than RLJing but hey ho.

Whatever you guys may think the only way it will stop is if there is a realistic, regular risk of being pulled by old bill and fined.

I do not see that RLJ is as heinous a crime as others do,

So it saves time for them then, if they stopped at every red they wouldn't be there to pass would they?

If I break the rules that is a reflection of me not anyone else.

Interestingly while I get grief over this on here, I can only remember 2 times in the last 2 years when anything was said to me by anyone on the road.

I believe that there is a way to rlj that doesn't ruffle feathers.

alfablue, not a single one of those posts advocates criminal damage or violence.

On the specific issue of RLJing, yes, it can be safer (see Emma Foa) and no, it would make no difference to many drivers.


Next.

alfablue

number9 wrote:

alfablue, not a single one of those posts advocates criminal damage or violence.

On the specific issue of RLJing, yes, it can be safer (see Emma Foa) and no, it would make no difference to many drivers.


Next.

Number9 - sorry, I was not attempting to provide such quotes, I was replying to Ianament, illustrating the various rationalisations for RLJ'ng.

As for safer to RLJ - maybe yes (though I believe other legal riding skills can minimise trouble) if taking a narrow / individualistic perspective, but maybe no if one considers the general effect it may have on the image of cyclists and the ensuing contempt offered to us all (RLJ'ers or not) as a result.

iainment

alfablue wrote:

iainment wrote:

I don't find all sorts of rationalisations for my actions, the only illegal activity I indulge in is rljing if the way is clear. I have never offered any oother reason for doing this - if it is clear and I don't take anyone's right of way I go, if not I don't. I don't ride on the pavements, wrong way up a one way, wrong side of the road, drunk, without lights etc.

Accuse me of what I actually do, don't invent things and apply them to me.

:twisted:

Pip pip

Ah, thought that would flush you out

My apologies, I could have used maneuver (singular) but I was referring to "those like Ianament" so the plural seemed appropriate. I accept you only commit one illegal maneuver, albeit hundreds or thousands of times, apparently. As for rationalisations, here is a selection:

It doesn't make any difference to them if you obey the rules or not.

"it's the law and must be obeyed" crew actually make me more likely to jump the light as I know it winds them up and generates some quite amusing self righteous bleating from them.

It's safer following the law? What planet are you on? There are countless examples of oppressive laws over the centuries, it may be that observance of this law makes things safer - although I think that is arguable - but just because something is the law is no guarantee of safety for people.

I am old enough to make up my own mind on this issue and realise the personal consequences to me if caught.

I really cannot believe that the aggressive motorists opinion of anything in their way will be changed by my stopping at every red light on my journey.

Even if all cyclists obeyed all road rules/laws there would still be antipathy from motorists because they need someone they think is lower down the pecking order to vent against.
I have been running redlights for more than 40 years, never had an accident crossing lights and feel there are better things for cyclists to do than policing themselves on behalf of motorists.

Even though you are right to say that RLJ is illegal, even though I know I might get pulled by the police and even if my actions mean that cyclists are denigrated by motorists (although I think this is debatable) your attitude would never persuade me to change my mind over my actions.

I don't agree that my actions are selfish

Still no response about cyclists threatening motorists or causing criminal damage though, and I would have thought that these actions are more heinous than RLJing but hey ho.

Whatever you guys may think the only way it will stop is if there is a realistic, regular risk of being pulled by old bill and fined.

I do not see that RLJ is as heinous a crime as others do,

So it saves time for them then, if they stopped at every red they wouldn't be there to pass would they?

If I break the rules that is a reflection of me not anyone else.

Interestingly while I get grief over this on here, I can only remember 2 times in the last 2 years when anything was said to me by anyone on the road.

I believe that there is a way to rlj that doesn't ruffle feathers.

Crikey a fan. Not sure if they are all rationalisations, most are consistent with my central tenet, if it doesn't cause danger to others or me, if I don't take someone's right of way then I'll go.

alfablue

iainment wrote:

Crikey a fan.

a big fan! :?

dirk_van_gently

Richardast:

Dirk Van Gently wrote:
Personally I think the Police have completely lost the battle on the streets, and it's now a free for all.

The role of the police is to enforce laws, not to force people to act like courteous grown-ups rather than spoilt, selfish children.
Everybody needs to start taking a bit of responsibility and stop blaming everyone else.
We're supposed to be living in a civilized society, aren't we?

IF you had read my posting in it's entirety rather than just quoting the bit you wanted, you would have read

We are all road users, whether Pedestrian, cyclist, car driver, bus driver, lorry driver et all.
Problem is some think that they have more rights than others.

richardast

DVG
Apologies if you took that as a dig. I wasn't trying to twist anything or have a pop at you. Just saying that it shouldn't need to be a battle on the streets in the first place.

Number9
You can find proof of anything you like on the internet.
For example, here's an extract of some government statistics from the DfT accident report for 2006...

Contributory factors attributed to vehicle type - % of accidents involving particular vehicles where the driver/rider of that vehicle's behaviour was a factor:

...................................................Pedal Cycle.........Bus/Coach
Vehicle Defects.................................3.........................0
Injudicious Action.............................18........................8
Driver/Rider Error..............................36.......................36
Impairment /Distraction.....................6.........................2
Behaviour/Inexperience....................11........................9

Draw your own conclusions.

I always "Stop At Red", but don't feel the need to join a pressure group that currently represents 0.004% of the UK population pledging not to break the law.

I'm a cyclist and a car driver (at a ratio of about 2:1 in terms of hours) so I have no interest in putting cyclists down. I just worry that we sometimes sound to non-cyclists like an irrational, over emotional, whiney minority who need not be taken seriously.

iainment

alfablue wrote:

iainment wrote:

Crikey a fan.

a big fan! :?

#1 Fan - or stalker hmmmm.

:P

attica

I don't RLJ
I use RLJers as a target, they tootle along, I overtake, pull up at the next set of lights, watch them RLJ then overtake them again once the lights are green.

I am smug (cyclist admits to being smug shocker!) in the knowledge that I am both more righteous and fitter (although I try not to show that.)

I have to be honest, I'm seriously wondering whether this forum is good for my health.
All this talk of death threats, DOA RLJers and people being squeezed between buses is scaring me silly and my confidence in traffic is starting to tumble.

Does anybody out there still enjoy the simple pleasure of sitting on a bike or are we now at war with anything powered by an internal combustion engine?

I'll be a conscientious objector if you don't mind!

BentMikey

Oooh, nice bending of those stats, Richard. You ignored the important part of the debate that I mentioned earlier, that cyclists often crash on their own with no other vehicle involved. Much like motorcyclists, I believe. That's not under debate here, it's the crashes with other vehicles involved that you raised, where it's quite clear that the cyclist is to blame far less often than the driver is.

number9

Number9
You can find proof of anything you like on the internet.

I can.

You can't.

You've blatantly misrepresented that research since it includes accidents where no other vehicles involved!

This would include MTB trailbiking, you muppet!

Yes, i concede, in incidents where another vehicle is not involved then that other vehicle may not be to blame.


A small victory for you richard old darling, but an important one I feel.

Now, if we've finished dipping our toes in the waters of insanity and can return to frolic on sensible beach, could you answer the question plz?

richardast

:roll:
What stats did I bend?
I just plucked the statistics for cycles and buses from the most recent official report I could find.
Presumably they also include coach and bus only accidents that don't involve a pedal cyle at all.
You always trot out this stat-bending argument whenever somebody disagrees with the reports you're always quoting.

I've had it with these paranoid, whingeing, "we're an endangered species" threads. I thought you like to promote the fact that cycling is not dangerous.

BentMikey

Actually, it's been you who's pulled out the stat bending stick recently. To be honest, I'm failing to see exactly what point it is you're trying to get across, because the direction of your argument is changing all the time in this topic.

richardast

number9 wrote:

Number9
You can find proof of anything you like on the internet.

I can.

You can't.

You've blatantly misrepresented that research since it includes accidents where no other vehicles involved!

This would include MTB trailbiking, you muppet!

Yes, i concede, in incidents where another vehicle is not involved then that other vehicle may not be to blame.


A small victory for you richard old darling, but an important one I feel.

Now, if we've finished dipping our toes in the waters of insanity and can return to frolic on sensible beach, could you answer the question plz?

They are Department for Transport statistics for ROAD traffic collisions taken from police reports.
MTB trailriding accidents would absolutely not be included.
Your abusive tone makes you seem like a really nice person.
Would you like to go out for a drink?

cee

i didn't know this was a pick-up joint

I observed mating behaviour like this whilst at primary school :P


When I first saw the footage of this tom chap, one of my first thoughts was that he was kinda looking for some of it. Now before someone pipes up with a big argument, please let me clarify what I mean.

I have said in other posts, that if you look at any of the longer videos, you see far more examples of 'driving unworthy of comment' than the one bad example being pointed out.

It kinda tilts the perception that this guy is always getting in loads of bother with cars. Personally, I do not feel that I get into 1% percent of the scrapes he seems to, but again, and hopefully this should clarify my earlier point about looking for it, the very fact that he has a camera and uploads them to youtube etc means he actually IS looking for it IMHO.

there 2 cents

BentMikey

I take your point, certainly about all the not-so-evident good driving on display that isn't noticed or commented on. I just emailed a company today complimenting their driver on waiting patiently and overtaking me in an exemplary manner, but I didn't youtube the video since it was relatively boring.

OTOH riding with a camera running all the time soon feels like riding without a camera. Once you've started the camera you tend to forget about it unless you have some sort of noteworthy incident. I was really surprised how few incidents I have, and how much footage I've taken. Maybe it's not really "looking for trouble" then, but I tend to think that's not what you meant.

Something I definitely look for is drivers on the phone, but then I do that anyway, even just walking down the road.

woodford2barbican

iainment wrote:

alfablue wrote:

iainment wrote:

I don't find all sorts of rationalisations for my actions, the only illegal activity I indulge in is rljing if the way is clear. I have never offered any oother reason for doing this - if it is clear and I don't take anyone's right of way I go, if not I don't. I don't ride on the pavements, wrong way up a one way, wrong side of the road, drunk, without lights etc.

Accuse me of what I actually do, don't invent things and apply them to me.

:twisted:

Pip pip

Ah, thought that would flush you out

My apologies, I could have used maneuver (singular) but I was referring to "those like Ianament" so the plural seemed appropriate. I accept you only commit one illegal maneuver, albeit hundreds or thousands of times, apparently. As for rationalisations, here is a selection:

It doesn't make any difference to them if you obey the rules or not.

"it's the law and must be obeyed" crew actually make me more likely to jump the light as I know it winds them up and generates some quite amusing self righteous bleating from them.

It's safer following the law? What planet are you on? There are countless examples of oppressive laws over the centuries, it may be that observance of this law makes things safer - although I think that is arguable - but just because something is the law is no guarantee of safety for people.

I am old enough to make up my own mind on this issue and realise the personal consequences to me if caught.

I really cannot believe that the aggressive motorists opinion of anything in their way will be changed by my stopping at every red light on my journey.

Even if all cyclists obeyed all road rules/laws there would still be antipathy from motorists because they need someone they think is lower down the pecking order to vent against.
I have been running redlights for more than 40 years, never had an accident crossing lights and feel there are better things for cyclists to do than policing themselves on behalf of motorists.

Even though you are right to say that RLJ is illegal, even though I know I might get pulled by the police and even if my actions mean that cyclists are denigrated by motorists (although I think this is debatable) your attitude would never persuade me to change my mind over my actions.

I don't agree that my actions are selfish

Still no response about cyclists threatening motorists or causing criminal damage though, and I would have thought that these actions are more heinous than RLJing but hey ho.

Whatever you guys may think the only way it will stop is if there is a realistic, regular risk of being pulled by old bill and fined.

I do not see that RLJ is as heinous a crime as others do,

So it saves time for them then, if they stopped at every red they wouldn't be there to pass would they?

If I break the rules that is a reflection of me not anyone else.

Interestingly while I get grief over this on here, I can only remember 2 times in the last 2 years when anything was said to me by anyone on the road.

I believe that there is a way to rlj that doesn't ruffle feathers.

Crikey a fan. Not sure if they are all rationalisations, most are consistent with my central tenet, if it doesn't cause danger to others or me, if I don't take someone's right of way then I'll go.

My quote is bigger than your quote!

iainment

woodford2barbican wrote:

iainment wrote:

alfablue wrote:

iainment wrote:

I don't find all sorts of rationalisations for my actions, the only illegal activity I indulge in is rljing if the way is clear. I have never offered any oother reason for doing this - if it is clear and I don't take anyone's right of way I go, if not I don't. I don't ride on the pavements, wrong way up a one way, wrong side of the road, drunk, without lights etc.

Accuse me of what I actually do, don't invent things and apply them to me.

:twisted:

Pip pip

Ah, thought that would flush you out

My apologies, I could have used maneuver (singular) but I was referring to "those like Ianament" so the plural seemed appropriate. I accept you only commit one illegal maneuver, albeit hundreds or thousands of times, apparently. As for rationalisations, here is a selection:

It doesn't make any difference to them if you obey the rules or not.

"it's the law and must be obeyed" crew actually make me more likely to jump the light as I know it winds them up and generates some quite amusing self righteous bleating from them.

It's safer following the law? What planet are you on? There are countless examples of oppressive laws over the centuries, it may be that observance of this law makes things safer - although I think that is arguable - but just because something is the law is no guarantee of safety for people.

I am old enough to make up my own mind on this issue and realise the personal consequences to me if caught.

I really cannot believe that the aggressive motorists opinion of anything in their way will be changed by my stopping at every red light on my journey.

Even if all cyclists obeyed all road rules/laws there would still be antipathy from motorists because they need someone they think is lower down the pecking order to vent against.
I have been running redlights for more than 40 years, never had an accident crossing lights and feel there are better things for cyclists to do than policing themselves on behalf of motorists.

Even though you are right to say that RLJ is illegal, even though I know I might get pulled by the police and even if my actions mean that cyclists are denigrated by motorists (although I think this is debatable) your attitude would never persuade me to change my mind over my actions.

I don't agree that my actions are selfish

Still no response about cyclists threatening motorists or causing criminal damage though, and I would have thought that these actions are more heinous than RLJing but hey ho.

Whatever you guys may think the only way it will stop is if there is a realistic, regular risk of being pulled by old bill and fined.

I do not see that RLJ is as heinous a crime as others do,

So it saves time for them then, if they stopped at every red they wouldn't be there to pass would they?

If I break the rules that is a reflection of me not anyone else.

Interestingly while I get grief over this on here, I can only remember 2 times in the last 2 years when anything was said to me by anyone on the road.

I believe that there is a way to rlj that doesn't ruffle feathers.

Crikey a fan. Not sure if they are all rationalisations, most are consistent with my central tenet, if it doesn't cause danger to others or me, if I don't take someone's right of way then I'll go.

My quote is bigger than your quote!

You think!

8)

Kafka\'s Doll

On RLJing and how it affects motorists' view of cyclists in general, I completely disagree with most posters. Motorists don't like cyclists because they see them as smug, holier-than-thou and superior. It's the damned piety about being better road users that winds them up the most, in my opinion. And this piety is at its apex when it comes to attitudes to RLJing. In most cases it's just not that big a deal, but this forum has even equated it with drunk driving.

It's this sense of self-righteousness that is the biggest cause of cyclist-motorist conflict.

alfablue

Kafka\'s Doll wrote:

On RLJing and how it affects motorists' view of cyclists in general, I completely disagree with most posters. Motorists don't like cyclists because they see them as smug, holier-than-thou and superior. It's the damned piety about being better road users that winds them up the most, in my opinion. And this piety is at its apex when it comes to attitudes to RLJing. In most cases it's just not that big a deal, but this forum has even equated it with drunk driving.

It's this sense of self-righteousness that is the biggest cause of cyclist-motorist conflict.

You only had to view a BBC documentary back in January regarding London's roads to hear many many motorists citing RLJ'ing as the first and often only grievance they had with cyclists - it is not imaginary.

Kafka\'s Doll

alfablue wrote:

Kafka\'s Doll wrote:

On RLJing and how it affects motorists' view of cyclists in general, I completely disagree with most posters. Motorists don't like cyclists because they see them as smug, holier-than-thou and superior. It's the damned piety about being better road users that winds them up the most, in my opinion. And this piety is at its apex when it comes to attitudes to RLJing. In most cases it's just not that big a deal, but this forum has even equated it with drunk driving.

It's this sense of self-righteousness that is the biggest cause of cyclist-motorist conflict.

You only had to view a BBC documentary back in January regarding London's roads to hear many many motorists citing RLJ'ing as the first and often only grievance they had with cyclists - it is not imaginary.

I saw that. My memory suggests that it was the pedestrians who were concerned at RLJing not the motorists. And there is a difference between saying some RLJing is dangerous and all RLJing is dangerous. I would never advocate making a pedestrian feel threatened, but at the same time I wouldn't worry about RLJing in front of a motorist in the same way that he wouldn't worry about going at 32mph in front of me. The difference is, I hope, that I wouldn't suggest to a motorist that I was a better road user than s/he.

saveswalking

alfablue wrote:

Kafka\'s Doll wrote:

On RLJing and how it affects motorists' view of cyclists in general, I completely disagree with most posters. Motorists don't like cyclists because they see them as smug, holier-than-thou and superior. It's the damned piety about being better road users that winds them up the most, in my opinion. And this piety is at its apex when it comes to attitudes to RLJing. In most cases it's just not that big a deal, but this forum has even equated it with drunk driving.

It's this sense of self-righteousness that is the biggest cause of cyclist-motorist conflict.

You only had to view a BBC documentary back in January regarding London's roads to hear many many motorists citing RLJ'ing as the first and often only grievance they had with cyclists - it is not imaginary.

No its not imaginary - its a lazy kneejerk response ('informed' by a media looking for a social conflict) to attempt to express their frustration and envy . Those motorists that 'hate' cyclists have no rational reason to do so and so pick up on the easiest visual examples of 'bad' cycling e.g. RLJ and :roll: pavement cycling. Its a red herring/smokescreen that appears to be setting the agenda and dictating the behavior of cyclists.

sw

alfablue

we have different memories.

Anyhow, this discussion is attempting to deal with fine detail and subtleties (dangerous/non-dangerous RLJ'ing, who thought what, what is intended/advocated etc), the basic fact is that people in general in and out of cars object to cyclists breaking road rules, its a stick to beat us with regardless of its relative danger compared to the transgressions of other road users - it is not a fair world!

alfablue

saveswalking wrote:

alfablue wrote:

Kafka\'s Doll wrote:

On RLJing and how it affects motorists' view of cyclists in general, I completely disagree with most posters. Motorists don't like cyclists because they see them as smug, holier-than-thou and superior. It's the damned piety about being better road users that winds them up the most, in my opinion. And this piety is at its apex when it comes to attitudes to RLJing. In most cases it's just not that big a deal, but this forum has even equated it with drunk driving.

It's this sense of self-righteousness that is the biggest cause of cyclist-motorist conflict.

You only had to view a BBC documentary back in January regarding London's roads to hear many many motorists citing RLJ'ing as the first and often only grievance they had with cyclists - it is not imaginary.

No its not imaginary - its a lazy kneejerk response ('informed' by a media looking for a social conflict) to attempt to express their frustration and envy . Those motorists that 'hate' cyclists have no rational reason to do so and so pick up on the easiest visual examples of 'bad' cycling e.g. RLJ and :roll: pavement cycling. Its a red herring/smokescreen that appears to be setting the agenda and dictating the behavior of cyclists.

sw

Listen, I am not defending the thinking of those "hate" motorists (or indeed those that merely dislike cyclists), their reactions are obviously over the top especially when compared to their own transgressions, nevertheless we have to accept that as cyclists we are subject to such harsh and sometimes ill-informed judgement, and we pay the consequences - no amount of rationalisation about their frustration and envy will change that. Also, I do not subscribe to the "its the media" theory, either.

Kafka\'s Doll

alfablue wrote:

we have different memories.

Anyhow, this discussion is attempting to deal with fine detail and subtleties (dangerous/non-dangerous RLJ'ing, who thought what, what is intended/advocated etc), the basic fact is that people in general in and out of cars object to cyclists breaking road rules, its a stick to beat us with regardless of its relative danger compared to the transgressions of other road users - it is not a fair world!

But my point is that if motorists didn't feel like cyclists were forever berating them for being bad road users, they wouldn't be looking for reasons to criticise cyclists in turn. After all, RLJing affects them not one jot in the vast majority of cases.

alfablue

Kafka\'s Doll wrote:

alfablue wrote:

we have different memories.

Anyhow, this discussion is attempting to deal with fine detail and subtleties (dangerous/non-dangerous RLJ'ing, who thought what, what is intended/advocated etc), the basic fact is that people in general in and out of cars object to cyclists breaking road rules, its a stick to beat us with regardless of its relative danger compared to the transgressions of other road users - it is not a fair world!

But my point is that if motorists didn't feel like cyclists were forever berating them for being bad road users, they wouldn't be looking for reasons to criticise cyclists in turn. After all, RLJing affects them not one jot in the vast majority of cases.

Us cyclists may well berate them, but where - here? Not the first place a motorist looks. Aside from such forums I do not believe cyclists have a fraction of the "voice" that motorists (the kings of the road) have. I am sorry but I just do not accept that motorists slag cyclists off because they feel that cyclists are forever berating them, indeed part of the problem is that cyclists are often an entirely ignored non-entity! At least until they are spotted breaking the rules of the road.

Yes of course RLJ'ing rarely affects them one jot, but to expect them to accommodate that notion before they act or speak suggests you imbue them with some cold logic that just doesn't apply in the majority of cases - if it did, road rage would be a fiction.

So the argument is, cyclists just need to keep their mouths shut and they can RLJ to their hearts content and it will upset no one....?

I am afraid we live in different worlds.

BentMikey

You guys should read this study about drivers' perceptions of cyclists:

http://www.trl.co.uk/store/report_detail.asp?srid=2700

(Click buy now, then choose the free electronic PDF option)

We're seen as a foreign tribe, and effectively treated with racism.

Kafka\'s Doll

alfablue wrote:

Kafka\'s Doll wrote:

alfablue wrote:

we have different memories.

Anyhow, this discussion is attempting to deal with fine detail and subtleties (dangerous/non-dangerous RLJ'ing, who thought what, what is intended/advocated etc), the basic fact is that people in general in and out of cars object to cyclists breaking road rules, its a stick to beat us with regardless of its relative danger compared to the transgressions of other road users - it is not a fair world!

But my point is that if motorists didn't feel like cyclists were forever berating them for being bad road users, they wouldn't be looking for reasons to criticise cyclists in turn. After all, RLJing affects them not one jot in the vast majority of cases.

Us cyclists may well berate them, but where - here? Not the first place a motorist looks. Aside from such forums I do not believe cyclists have a fraction of the "voice" that motorists (the kings of the road) have. I am sorry but I just do not accept that motorists slag cyclists off because they feel that cyclists are forever berating them, indeed part of the problem is that cyclists are often an entirely ignored non-entity! At least until they are spotted breaking the rules of the road.

Yes of course RLJ'ing rarely affects them one jot, but to expect them to accommodate that notion before they act or speak suggests you imbue them with some cold logic that just doesn't apply in the majority of cases - if it did, road rage would be a fiction.

So the argument is, cyclists just need to keep their mouths shut and they can RLJ to their hearts content and it will upset no one....?

I am afraid we live in different worlds.

I mean on the road. Some of the people I cycle alongside will shout about not having enough room, bang wing mirrors, frighten motorists by wobbling in front of them, all sorts. And almost always unnecessary. And yet, as a rule, most motorists I cycle alongside are courteous and respectful. It's not a war out there at all. That said, if you sit down and discuss the issue with motorists, they will always say that cyclists make them feel like beasts for having the temerity to be on the road at all -- which, let's be honest, is often the attitude on this forum so it's no surprise that they pick up on it.

There's more to it, I agree. Often it's fear -- several drivers I know turn their worries about being capable of killing a cyclist into anger. Typical displacement aggression.

The question is whether any of this would improve if no cyclist ever jumped a light. It wouldn't.

cee

BentMikey wrote:

I take your point, certainly about all the not-so-evident good driving on display that isn't noticed or commented on. I just emailed a company today complimenting their driver on waiting patiently and overtaking me in an exemplary manner, but I didn't youtube the video since it was relatively boring.

OTOH riding with a camera running all the time soon feels like riding without a camera. Once you've started the camera you tend to forget about it unless you have some sort of noteworthy incident. I was really surprised how few incidents I have, and how much footage I've taken. Maybe it's not really "looking for trouble" then, but I tend to think that's not what you meant.

Something I definitely look for is drivers on the phone, but then I do that anyway, even just walking down the road.

Mikey thanks for a balanced reply. Maybe you are right in that the good examle videos are just plain boring. Lets face it, people watch car/bike/rollerskate crashes and wipeout reels, but I would think that just rolling along nicely is pretty boring to watch right?

No, looking for trouble wasn't exactly what I meant, but I would say that Tom is far more aware of the camera than you say you are.

He is filming with uploading in the foreground of his thoughts, and has a running commentary of car registration numbers and all sorts of other comments together with constantly pointing out to the camera as things happen.

I don't know that chasing down drivers and confronting them like he does is a great idea, and I have to say, no wonder there is often confrontation (rightly or wrongly).

*addition....

I would have thought that many of people confronted in this manner would think 'who the f**k are you??? the good driving police?' or something similar, which then turns into the aggression he seems to receive.....

Oh...and I won a fight with an Audi TT (now with new and improved pedal scrapes down his rear nearside wing....He then mounted the central reservation trying to continue) last night, so I know that incidents do happen, but I just don't feel any of the general hatred suggested. Yes incidents happen, I just don't think I want to participate in a them and us style propaganda war.

DavidTQ

I have actually posted a few good example videos on you tube since I got my helmet cam, although bad driving ones do make far more interesting videos.

alfablue

Thanks Mikey, unfortunately the Buy Now link is freezing for me. I presume the report identifies significant problems with attitudes amongst motorists. I see it recommends in the abstract improved driver training and awareness.