"long" intervals

onabike

Hi,
looking for advice on long intervals.
I've been doing 2x20 mins twice per week on a turbo (plus longer rides) and now want to add "long Intervals" of 3-5 mins to further boost my threshold and V02max.

From what i've read I need to break down my 10-mile TT time into blocks of time made up of shorter, harder efforts. To this end I tried 6x5 mins and tried to push just over my time trial effort in each one. First four intervals went OKish , fifth not good and 6th just awful.
Just wondering if you think i'm going about it the right way?
If I do 3 minute intervals does that mean I do 9 of them ? That sounds like a lot.
Can you recommend other good threshold work-outs?

Here's where I'm at: Age 36 .This is my first winter training with a turbo and using HR zones. Aim is to have a full season of 10-mile time trialling and beat my PB of 26.20. Thus far i've only tried a few 10s and usually get around 27 minutes

heavymental

Pai Mei taught you the five point palm-exploding heart technique?

Morpeth

I do 4 min sets at 90% MHR with 6 minutes off, 4 minutes on, five times.

Jeff Jones

I think going off HR for 4min intervals is not going to give you great results because of the time it takes for your HR to get up to wherever it's meant to get up to. It's probably better to rely on perceived exertion and maybe glance at your HR once or twice during the whole effort.

6x5min intervals all in one go sounds like a lot to me! Especially if you don't have a large base. Maybe stick with 4x5min and try to add one more when you feel you can.

Have you considered longer intervals, e.g. 1 hour at about 90% of TT pace? I find these are great for building your aerobic engine, then doing the shorter ones to increase speed. That said, I've done a grand total of four 4min intervals this year...

SteveR_100Milers

I can't manage more than about 75=80% MHR for 10 minute intervals on a turbo. On the road, most of an hours ride is 85-90% no problem. Both "feel" equally hard, so PE in this instance isn't much use!

nmcgann

onabike wrote:

Hi,
looking for advice on long intervals.
I've been doing 2x20 mins twice per week on a turbo (plus longer rides) and now want to add "long Intervals" of 3-5 mins to further boost my threshold and V02max.

From what i've read I need to break down my 10-mile TT time into blocks of time made up of shorter, harder efforts. To this end I tried 6x5 mins and tried to push just over my time trial effort in each one. First four intervals went OKish , fifth not good and 6th just awful.
Just wondering if you think i'm going about it the right way?
If I do 3 minute intervals does that mean I do 9 of them ? That sounds like a lot.
Can you recommend other good threshold work-outs?

Here's where I'm at: Age 36 .This is my first winter training with a turbo and using HR zones. Aim is to have a full season of 10-mile time trialling and beat my PB of 26.20. Thus far i've only tried a few 10s and usually get around 27 minutes

I only do 4x5min intervals with 5min recovery. The intensity is based on producing similar powers on each and just being able to complete the whole session. I certainly couldn't do 5 at the level I do 4.

I'm reaching 97% MHR at the end of the 2nd interval onward and my breathing is getting pretty ragged by the end of the interval - these are hard work.

Neil

azzerb

I started with 5x5 yesterday again, with a constant difficulty during the 5x5 which left me begging for the 5mins to be up (could barely carry on and was really struggling for breath), did 5 of these, got off the bike and melted into a pool of sweat while sweating.

Alex_Simmons/RST

Like most training, the more you do them, the better you get at doing them.

As Jeff said, HR is pretty useless indicator if you do these efforts right. Either isopower or gradually raising power if you can. Sometimes you can't. What's important is that the intensity/duration is such that you induce VO2 Max.

Here's a pic of what they might look like when done on a turbo. Power (yellow) and HR (red).

cervelorider

Firstly, rig up your bike so you can use speed rather than HR to regulate your interval sessions, whether they're 2x20 or 5x5(or whatever). This will enable you to ride at a constant intensity that will allow your HR to drift upward through each interval, and also give you some levels to target and improve on.
IMO, 5x5mins or 6x4mins are the durations to target VO2max, and start these at an intensity that you can JUST complete all of them. Over time you will be able to increase the intensity as you adapt to them, but initially you will find them tough.

For what it's worth, 1 session a week is enough to start with, and then see how you get on before starting to do them more regularly than this.

Ken Night

onabike wrote:

Hi,
looking for advice on long intervals.
I've been doing 2x20 mins twice per week on a turbo (plus longer rides)

What %age of HR max is this at? (presumably for TTing only, or can/does the this type of training be useful for anything else?

cervelorider

Ken Night wrote:

onabike wrote:

Hi,
looking for advice on long intervals.
I've been doing 2x20 mins twice per week on a turbo (plus longer rides)

What %age of HR max is this at? (presumably for TTing only, or can/does the this type of training be useful for anything else?

Well I have heard it mentioned that RR's use them for breakaway training.
Generally they're useful for any kind of cyclesport, as they keep the ceiling loose on your aerobic capacity. So if your threshold training has plateaud, then intervals of 3-6 minute duration will allow you to threshold to keep improving.

BeaconRuth

cervelorider wrote:

Generally they're useful for any kind of cyclesport, as they keep the ceiling loose on your aerobic capacity.

"Oooo, I'm just going on the turbo to keep my ceiling loose, darling..........."

Ruth

Ken Night

cervelorider wrote:

[
Well I have heard it mentioned that RR's use them for breakaway training.
Generally they're useful for any kind of cyclesport, as they keep the ceiling loose on your aerobic capacity. So if your threshold training has plateaud, then intervals of 3-6 minute duration will allow you to threshold to keep improving.

Any idea at what %age one would start to have a go at this?

Bronzie

Ken Night wrote:

Any idea at what %age one would start to have a go at this?

I think 2 x 20 sessions should be done in the 85-90% MHR zone, but bear in mind that if you start at 85% and hold the same power/speed your heart rate will drift up through the session.

Hence a good idea to use a rear wheel speedo and/or cadence with the same gears each session to try to replicate the power output that you can just about maintain for 2 of these 20 minute efforts. As you get fitter, you should be able to use higher gears or faster cadence for the same sorts of heart rate.

SteveR_100Milers

5 mins @ 90%MHR is hard enough on a turbo, let alone 20 mins...TWICE! I'd rather gnaw my own arm off than do that....

cervelorider

Ken Night wrote:

cervelorider wrote:

[
Well I have heard it mentioned that RR's use them for breakaway training.
Generally they're useful for any kind of cyclesport, as they keep the ceiling loose on your aerobic capacity. So if your threshold training has plateaud, then intervals of 3-6 minute duration will allow you to threshold to keep improving.

Any idea at what %age one would start to have a go at this?

As bronzie has mentioned, HR should drift upward through both the 2x20 and the 3-6 minute efforts, but the 3-5 minute efforts are going to be that bit more intense that you can only hold the effort for a much shorter time. Rear wheel speedo will help you to get this more exact, letting HR drift once you have the desired intensity dialled.
These shorter (3-6min)efforts can also be done as hill repeats, but make sure the gradient is steep enough so as to make the effort hard enough.
Hope this helps.
BTW, if your doing 3 minute efforts, do a total of 8 reps, and if its 6 minute efforts, do 4.
Look for a total of 20-25 minutes of total effort. Recovery time to suite you, so that all efforts can be completed(IMO).

onabike

Is it me or is the Tiscali internet service just awful ? Anway, back on-line finally. Great response and much food for thought.

I'm trying not to overly rely on HR, but I my threshold HR is around 172bpm. Ive been doing my 2x20 mins turbo sessions at around 165-170 bpm, twice a week for 3 months, plus basic endurance rides. When i did the 5 mins I managed to average 175bpm for the first four. I find both sessions tough.

Although I reckon im emerging from this Winter a little fitter than usual, I'm not finding that the 2x20 mins turbo training has translated onto the road as an increase in speed. I still really struggle to maintain an average speed of 22 mph over 10 miles on my local time trial circuit, though that is on my own on a winter training bike.

Lately i've been throwing in more and more hills into my weekend endurance rides: slogging up and down the peak district hills with no real structure. A few rides like this seem to be quickly adding pop to my legs, more so than the 2x20mins turbo training.
It's still very early and I will stick at it, working on the shorter intervals and adding more tempo rides + anaerobic turbo blasts, following the advice.

Spring is nearly here!

ut_och_cykla

My understanding is that the 2x20 should be done just below TT level - doable but a struggle.How this translates to HR % depends a bit on your fitness, cadence etc as well as drift during the period. The aim is to do them - the second one should be a struggle the last 5 minutes but you should recover HR in the 5-8min rest period at least.

The 'VO2' requires longer rests between efforts (in comparison to effort length) to ensure 'recovery' typically 3:3 minutes. High cadence will drive up heart beat.
my guess is the 2x 20 have been done too easy as you have progressed. Hills are usually good improvers - try different gears one too 'light' or heavy to broaden your spectrum of leg speeds perhaps ?